Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane

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Interesting research paper (free download):

 

Perception of vertically separated sound sources in the median plane

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/handle/123456789/29103

 

Abstract: The ability of human listeners to segregate two sound sources was examined by conducting an experiment when the sources are concurrently presented from different directions in the median plane. A high-pass filtered pink noise was utilized as a sound stimulus in a free-field condition and presented as either a pair of incoherent sound sources or a single-source. Subjects responded whether they perceived sound from one or two directions. Listening tests were conducted with different directions and separation angles of sound sources. These tests consisted of two sessions: a monaural session when only the right ear was made audible, and a binaural session when both ears were audible. The results indicated that the percentage of responding "two directions" for pairwise stimuli exceeded 50% above 33.75 deg. separation angle and reached above 70% at 67.5 deg. separation for both sessions. However, the perceived separation showed weak correlation to the degree of separation although it increased in the binaural session. The ability to discriminate pairwise stimuli to each of two corresponding sound sources showed high statistical significance. The difference between a monaural hearing and binaural hearing was not statistically significant for the segregation of sound sources in the median plane.

Permanent link to this item:  http://urn.fi/URN:NBN:fi:aalto-201712187901

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

A recording with a dummy head could possibly pull it off to some extent, but I have personally never heard a convincing example.

Only with headphones in my experience. Perhaps.

 

I have a few dummy head recordings and can't perceive height with my speakers.

Must try with headphones, just bought a reasonably decent pair.

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

When you see a choir performing live for Beethoven's Ninth, are all choir members standing on the floor?

I've only listened to the 9th live but I've listened to other orchestral work with choir like Rachmaninoff's The Bells or Prokofiev's Aleksandr Nevsky and I can't say that I perceived any height difference between the front of the orchestra and the top tier of the choir.

 

I think that the reproduction of vertical location is trivial.

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

No, but when I play a recording, I can't see the performers.

 

For those who can't live without the visual aspect there's always video.

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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Many people felt the same about horizontal location when stereo was in its infancy.

 

A jazz ensemble, a choir, an orchestra expands, all expand horizontally in front of the listener over a horizontal stage.

 

Keep it simple.

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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

I think a recreation as closely as possible of all aspects of the audio from either the live performance or the studio creation is a worthy goal. Certainly I have no argument with anyone who is perfectly happy with something else.

 

Then we are back to the omni array of mics and the onmi sphere of speakers with the listener sitting inside.

 

This creates so many obstacles that it'll never happen at a domestic level.

 

I see many audiophiles obsessing about soundstage but soundstage is superfluous in the grand scheme of music enjoyment.

 

Music is sound.

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43 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

 

If the classical crowd were to jump on, then maybe. But for other genres, I really doubt it.

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46 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Don't know that we'd need an "omni sphere." Might be able to do with 8 speakers at the corners of a cube. Agreed that 8 speakers with acceptable high end performance aren't something ordinarily affordable for most households right now. And right now, the computer power to provide 8 channels of appropriately DSP'd high end audio is probably not practical either. 

 

But it's not that far off. So I wouldn't confidently predict this will never ever happen. Would the recording industry ever get behind it? Don't know about that either, but if it becomes practically affordable enough, there might be interest. Again, I wouldn't be able to say "never" with confidence - that's a long time.

 

A pair of front uppers and one of front lowers might be a more realistic option.

 

You could even make them into a single tall column.

 

 

But I insist that it's a pointless pursuit for documental style recording.

 

It would be possible to take advantage of this gimmick through multi-track and post-processing but who would bother, 10% of the classical music audiophile community?

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2 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

It may be to you and that's fine. IMO it's not superfluous, but it is hardly the most important characteristic that contributes to my enjoyment of music.

 

I'd say that it's superfluous to any music lover who isn't an audiophile.

But I am inclined to agree that most audiophiles are hung up on 3Dness.

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10 hours ago, Jud said:

 

In 1968 when I bought my first stereo system with money from delivering newspapers, my parents and younger brother and sister weren't fascinated with The Beatles or Cream, but rather with a record that simulated listening to a parade as marching bands passed by. None of them were or are audiophiles.

That only attests for their conservative taste in music. 😋

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10 hours ago, Jud said:

 

You insist, eh? Ricardo, you're going to have a problem getting to the 50,000+ purchasers of the Vandersteen 2 series to give them your opinion, and that's just a start.

 

But Santa manages, so.... 😉

 

Jud, I listen regularly to live classical music and I can assure you that if I close my eyes neither the soundstage is as defined as in multi-track recordings nor any significant height difference is perceived.

 

Do note that I mentioned documental style recording. Studio-produced music is another matter.

But why would labels pay more for producing pop-rock with height information for a tiny number of audiophiles? Why would studios invest on more equipment?

And would would be the point if when you go to a gig or a jazz club the musicians are spread in front or the listener over a horizontal stage?

 

This is gimmick to the nth degree...

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12 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

I think it may be more of a case of them not being conscious of it, as opposed to it being superfluous. In which case they couldn't possibly obsess over it.

 

They just don't care.

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Just now, Jud said:

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

 

My sole argument is that you don't perceive that dimension when listening live, except maybe in a few opera performances. I'm not just contradicting you.

Imagine yourself in the audience. If two sound sources are 25 metres away and distance vertically 5 metres the angle is minimal.

 

It may on the other hand be useful for home cinema.

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18 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I don't quite understand why you would care so much that others shouldn't. One physical dimension only should be important, and not the other two?

I don't understand either. But whilst none of my friends or family are audiophiles several are music lovers.

They think I'm nuts for having no TV in the sitting room but some very large (for them) speakers taking such prominent space and for the rigidity of a listening spot and for even caring or spending so much on a system. They actually prefer the "in your face" sound of a Bluetooth speaker and are happy listening to YouTube...

 

My former neighbour who is an advanced classical amateur and often a page-turner for Pizarro, has 2 grand pianos and several thousand CDs yet now only listens to lossy-compressed Apple downloads over two small speakers that aren't even at the same height.

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

Pink Floyd's live performances usually involved sound coming from multiple directions, much to the delight of the audience. But perhaps they only appealed to a small segment of audiophiles and the general music listening public?

I was referring to classical music. Never watched Pink Floyd live but those gigs I went to had all sound coming from the sides of the stage, perhaps from the center as well in football stadiums, I can't recall.

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

It is correct that height *information* is not recorded or reproduced. Nevertheless, it's well known that a recording can provide an *impression* of height (and depth). See https://theproaudiofiles.com/width-height-depth-in-a-mix/

 

The impression of height, you may (correctly) say, is a false one, a kind of distortion. That's true. Why then should anyone have an objection to including correct, accurate height information in recordings?

The angle has to be significantly wider than what you capture in a live recording.

You coul pan vertically with a 4 channel mix.

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1 hour ago, SJK said:

Then I suppose it’s all down to the hardware used for playback. I find it interesting how with that same hardware how the soundstage will change from one recording to another. 
 

i recorded a number of the RCA Red Seal mono LPs recently along with a number of FFRR and FFSS titles. It really comes down to the recording, presuming you have the hardware to, uh, you know - make it sound goodly. 

 

Deviations from flat, phase anomalies, wide dispersion, side-wall proximity, absence of toe-in, harmonic distortion, many factors can "enhance" the soundstage effect.

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You should try something like this:

 

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11 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 No, you should try something like this :

 

 

Not that I wouldn't love to listen to BD's system but I was referring to binaural recordings; in that case a partition helps somewhat.