Forum Decorum | Feedback Please

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 I make no apology for posting replies knowing that 2 members in particular will not be in a position to cause it to disappear from view within minutes of being posted. I would not feel the need to do this if we had more moderators to stop deliberate thread disruption tactics.

Well, you're the expert on thread disruption, so I'll have to take your word for it.

[sandyk]

Just now, mansr said:

Well, you're the expert on thread disruption, so I'll have to take your word for it.

  Anybody who dares to challenge your authority is guilty of thread disruption according to you.

 

(1.

the power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.)

"he had absolute authority over his subordinates"

 

[Jud]

Hmm, time to unfollow this thread for a while.

 

I like Bill's idea to do the experiment, recognizing it would take time and energy to do the moderation on the more regulated forum(s). But that's part of the experiment, too - is such time, energy and wisdom available?

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

Hmm, time to unfollow this thread for a while.

 

I like Bill's idea to do the experiment, recognizing it would take time and energy to do the moderation on the more regulated forum(s). But that's part of the experiment, too - is such time, energy and wisdom available?

 

I disagree. I view this proposal as a trial separation. Most likely this will result in a divorce, and that's not an outcome I'm looking forward to.

 

[Jud]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

I disagree. I view this proposal as a trial separation. Most likely this will result in a divorce, and that's not an outcome I'm looking forward to.

 

 

Thanks Paul. Me neither. But part of the reason I feel like unfollowing at the moment is that we're down to arguing about proposals for stopping the arguing. 🙂

 

When topics get into the chasing-their-tail phase like this, I don't often see much that's interesting to me coming from them thereafter.

[John Dyson]

Hmmmm...  Even this thread is degenerating a bit.   I would suggest moderation (in the generic sense, not in the sense of a thread moderator) in making changes.  Seems that Jud might have a worthwhile notiion :-).

 

It would be nice if the forum software could regulate crankyness...

 

John

 

[vmartell22]

Just a few comments - l have mentioned elsewhere, have decided to mellow out re:  the audio wars, so in general, the proposed rules seem reasonable, given that disagreement always turn into a brawl.

 

1.- Would still love to see some level of discussion - the balkanization of users might turn the forum into the Absolute Sound letters section. Again, nothing wrong with that, but it might make it less fun.

 

2.- Self policing plays a part - Seems that some members are unable to do it because her/his brain cannot cope with someone that aggressively opposes that person's point of view and won't change her/his mind. So things get ugly sometimes pretty fast. But self policing won't happen. Not unless there is some automated way to moderate.  Then, people might get used to it. I know, it's hard.

 

3.- Lately have been hanging out in the Music, DAC and Software forums, just reading and learning.  It looks like most of the ugliness happens in the General forum. So, if any automation happens, limiting to General, might make it easier.

 

Just my $0.02

 

v

 

[Ralf11]

11 hours ago, Dutch said:

One can exaggerate and call it ‘heavy policing’ but the very thread we’re posting in right now is monitored and actively moderated. Though some off topic posts have been removed, everyone seems to behave and still participate just fine.

 

some on-topic posts appear to have been removed as well

[Ralf11]

8 hours ago, mansr said:

Well, you're the expert on thread disruption, so I'll have to take your word for it.

 

most problems seem to emenate from one time zone, so rather than split the forum into 2 groups of Subj/Obj or Modded/Unmodded, perhaps it would be best to give one time zone its own sub-forum

[christopher3393]

12 hours ago, Currawong said:

Head-Fi went through this years ago, and I ended up spending over half a decade being a quite brutal moderator to stop the anarchy starting up again. 

 

Here's the reality: Everyone can be put on a standard deviation grade curve -- most people are moderate and sensible, however people at the ends of any spectrum, the extremists if you like, cause 99% of the problems.  If they don't blatantly accuse others of being everything bad under the sun, they push things to the limits, and push back if you enforce your rules against them.

 

While there is a natural tendency to want to say that you want a place where a variety of views can be expressed, saying that in itself is a trap, as in reality that desire will be hijacked by extremists to push their agendas. Extremists are noisy and motivated to push forums into the ground in their desire to have them bend towards their beliefs.  The best thing to do with them is ban them outright. They can shout to death about everything falsely negative about you. But after it becomes possible to express an opinion without being shouted down by these people, the majority, normally afraid to post because of these people, are more likely to participate again.

 

The problem is likely not one with rules, so much as it is a problem with a small handful of people.

 

Brilliant post. Nails it and comes from a good deal of direct experience moderating a AND making fine contributions to an audio forum that I have frequented since shifting to headphones.

 

Every time there has been a thread exploring some reform to deal with the problems here, there is lots of pushback, much of it from members that don't want their negative behavior challenged by other members or a moderator. One has to take their opposition with a large grain of salt or nothing will improve here, which suits the offenders quite well.

 

It is unfortunate because these members only behave this way sometimes and also make contributions. Social media communication habits, like many habits, can be hard to change. But if one does not wish to write more civil responses, there is little or no chance of this. There are some fine models here of members who can enter disputes, make their points clearly, intelligently, and at times at length very effectively. They prove the point that you do not HAVE to be uncivil to communicate quite effectively. It is just much harder for some than others.

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, John Dyson said:

It would be nice if the forum software could regulate crankyness...

John

 Impartial moderators like in DIY Audio for example, are capable of doing this .

 

Alex

[kumakuma]

25 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Impartial moderators like in DIY Audio for example, are capable of doing this .

 

 

How do you suggest finding such Saints among the Sinners who frequent this Site?

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

How do you suggest finding such Saints among the Sinners who frequent this Site?

 I have suggested one very suitable candidate for USA and Canada etc. on quite a few occasions a while back, but Jud may simply not have the time available to do this, or even be interested in doing so.

 I can't think of a more opened minded member, who has also taught himself quite a bit in some of the electronics areas.

 Unfortunately, not all members in other parts of the world reveal their country of origin, just like many USA members do not even reveal which state they live in. Doing this often results in making some very good friends with similar interests.

 Finding someone suitable in say the U.K. could be more difficult as they can't even make up their minds about  Brexit or whether they should agree to a divorce with Scotland

[Ralf11]

Any Moderator should be someone who never posts...

[Samuel T Cogley]

3 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

Every time there has been a thread exploring some reform to deal with the problems here, there is lots of pushback, much of it from members that don't want their negative behavior challenged by other members or a moderator. One has to take their opposition with a large grain of salt or nothing will improve here, which suits the offenders quite well.

 

You and I have butted heads more than once over assumptions of other people's motivations.  And I am certainly guilty of this as well.  But can we agree that doing that, regardless of how virtuous we believe our motives to be, does not serve this thread in any way?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - I just received this via PM and want to paste it in here so the opinion is heard and here for feedback. If the person who sent it reads it, please know it's anonymized. 

 

"Chris, the need for this whole 9-point plan or moderators is pretty much entirely due to half a dozen people who can't contain themselves.

 

I hate to see you need to spend your valuable time and resources on making changes to accommodate this gang.  Kudos to you for trying.  

 

These guys keep saying that others don't want to hear their views because they disagree with them.  That simply isn't true.  I don't want to hear from them because their attitude sucks."

[PeterSt]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

Unfortunately, not all members in other parts of the world reveal their country of origin, just like many USA members do not even reveal which state they live in. Doing this often results in making some very good friends with similar interests.

 Finding someone suitable in say the U.K. could be more difficult as they can't even make up their minds about  Brexit or whether they should agree to a divorce with Scotland

 

🏴

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - I just received this via PM and want to paste it in here so the opinion is heard and here for feedback. If the person who sent it reads it, please know it's anonymized. 

 

"Chris, the need for this whole 9-point plan or moderators is pretty much entirely due to half a dozen people who can't contain themselves.

Dozen? More like half a pair.

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys

 

Those who protest the most against the proposed ToS changes, are those who pose the problems most. Why, actually, are they left to be bespoke.

 

If votes would be out to list these names, the subjects would be quite shocked to be on top. It would be half a dozen indeed, probably plus 1.

Comfortably numb.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Those who protest the most against the proposed ToS changes, are those who pose the problems most. Why, actually, are they left to be bespoke.

Bespoke. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

Bespoke. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

Probably not.

 

Bespoke

 

but I'd agree with that.

[John Dyson]

I don't understand intensity on the forum -- I have invested a LOT of time into audio stuff, but don't get intensely angry when people disagree...  Why the rancor, why the intensity?   This is NOT religion, but at most a very serious hobby -- or for some, a vocation.

 

If someone is nice enough to provide the resources for this forum, than we visitors and especially those who contribute, should treat the forum, the providers and each other with some level of mutual respect, and maybe even kindness.

 

I *almost* feel like I am visiting someones house when participating in the forum -- and it seems a good idea to be happy about the welcome.

 

Vehement disagrement seems to become too personal.  Geesh, I have private discussions with someone where we are on edge of disagreement much of the time, but it is not DISAGREEABLE, because there is a modicum of mutual respect.  It is not helpful to have excess negative emotions.

 

Proving side A or side B is the 'correct side' is sometimes not going to happen.  Mutual respect allows agreement to disagree, or to accept that there are areas where there can be some disagreement.  Sometimes, eventually there can be a movement towards agreement -- but it shouldn't need to be a 'crusade' to convince when it isn't really necessary.   BTW -- I am NOT a flower child and can be aggressive in the european sense (which isn't a good thing) -- but there are situations where being very assertive is a good thing.

 

Remotely, over a forum like this, it is seldom beneficial to be very aggressively assertive.  Sometimes best to recognize that there are things and people that none of us can control.   There are actually people who think differently -- and slightly different reality.  Doesn't make it bad -- just different.

 

John

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, John Dyson said:

I don't understand intensity on the forum -- I have invested a LOT of time into audio stuff, but don't get intensely angry when people disagree...  Why the rancor, why the intensity?   This is NOT religion, but at most a very serious hobby -- or for some, a vocation.

 

If someone is nice enough to provide the resources for this forum, than we visitors and especially those who contribute, should treat the forum, the providers and each other with some level of mutual respect, and maybe even kindness.

 

I *almost* feel like I am visiting someones house when participating in the forum -- and it seems a good idea to be happy about the welcome.

 

Vehement disagrement seems to become too personal.  Geesh, I have private discussions with someone where we are on edge of disagreement much of the time, but it is not DISAGREEABLE, because there is a modicum of mutual respect.  It is not helpful to have excess negative emotions.

 

Proving side A or side B is the 'correct side' is sometimes not going to happen.  Mutual respect allows agreement to disagree, or to accept that there are areas where there can be some disagreement.  Sometimes, eventually there can be a movement towards agreement -- but it shouldn't need to be a 'crusade' to convince when it isn't really necessary.   BTW -- I am NOT a flower child and can be aggressive in the european sense (which isn't a good thing) -- but there are situations where being very assertive is a good thing.

 

Remotely, over a forum like this, it is seldom beneficial to be very aggressively assertive.  Sometimes best to recognize that there are things and people that none of us can control.   There are actually people who think differently -- and slightly different reality.  Doesn't make it bad -- just different.

 

John

 

Agree 100%.

 

There has to be an underlying reason for the intensity. 

[sandyk]

8 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Geesh, I have private discussions with someone where we are on edge of disagreement much of the time, but it is not DISAGREEABLE, because there is a modicum of mutual respect.  It is not helpful to have excess negative emotions.

 

 As John and several members of  John's little PM group are well aware, when both sides work together towards  a common goal, incredible advances are possible.

[crenca]

31 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

There has to be an underlying reason for the intensity. 

 

I know, I know!!  Pick me, pick me!!!

 

Just kidding.   😋