The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 hours ago, mitchco said: Hello. There are 4 common industry standard target frequency responses used to calibrate monitors in sound production control rooms. B&K, Toole and Olive, ITU and EBU 3276. And overlaid on one chart: Given that each target has a +- 3 dB tolerance, effectively each target overlaps one another, all with a downward frequency response at the listening position. This is because loudspeakers are omnidirectional at low frequencies with narrowing directivity at higher frequencies. The rising bass energy yields a steady-state room curve with a downward tilt. This is important to note because ones preference for one target or the other is based on a number of factors, all coming into play at once. Size of listening room, directivity index or polar response of the loudspeakers, distance from speakers to listener (there is a spec with a range), how much direct versus reflected sound is being heard at the listening position based on how lively or dead the listening environment is, also with spec and range of operation. All of these factors play into which target one prefers, with the common theme of how much or little high frequency response is required based on these factors. For example, in my room with narrow directivity loudspeakers and a fairly large and lively room (600 ms broadband decay time) with a 9ft equilateral triangle, I prefer the Toole Olive target response. Sounds neutral to my ears given this combination of loudspeaker/room. On the other hand, Chris's loudspeakers are wider directivity, also larger room. but with a 200ms broadband decay time. In order to hear the same perceived neutral response, more direct high frequency energy is required to arrive at Chris's listening position as compared to my loudspeakers in my room. Normally, I would deliver all 4 target responses at once for your loudspeakers in your room. As Chris has shown in Roon, one can easily flip through different filters as music is playing and choose what sounds best to your ears. Toole and Olive have shown in participant listening studies that as Floyd Toole describes, accurate and preferred are synonymous. Due to schedules, I delivered Chris one filter set at a time, instead of all 4. And started with the target with the most rolled off top end 🙂 LOL! Exactly what he did not need. The 4th target delivered, weeks later, should have been the first. I would hazard a guess that is the frustration. It turned out for the better that I received the other curves first. I learned much more and became very familiar with their differences. mitchco 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Blake Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Earlier this month, I purchased 6 of the Vicoustic DC2 Multifuser Panels (same as those purchased by Chris). I am located in USA. I found a reputable seller based in the U.K., Gear4Music that is an authorized seller. Shipped to me in the USA, the 6 panels cost $438. Dealers in the USA charge $650. One nice thing, these panels are thick so you can stack them, as I have done in the picture below. Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
Popular Post Richard Dale Posted December 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, Blake said: Earlier this month, I purchased 6 of the Vicoustic DC2 Multifuser Panels (same as those purchased by Chris). I am located in USA. I found a reputable seller based in the U.K., Gear4Music that is an authorized seller. Shipped to me in the USA, the 6 panels cost $438. Dealers in the USA charge $650. One nice thing, these panels are thick so you can stack them, as I have done in the picture below. I got some 5mm MDF panels cut, painted them black and then glued the black DC2s to the panels. Then I could mount them on the wall with sawtooth hangers just like I've done with the GIK absorber/diffuser panels on the side walls. Front of the room with two pairs of DC2s with GIK Gotham Quadratic diffusers above them: Rear of the room with two DC2s: The Computer Audiophile, wr_aspire and Blake 2 1 System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
Jud Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 What are the materials in these panels? It strikes me that with the availability of photos printed on fabric, if these panels use non-exotic materials and we have a few members who know how to design them, decor- and wallet-friendly acoustic panels might be a very nice DIY project. The Computer Audiophile 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Jud said: What are the materials in these panels? It strikes me that with the availability of photos printed on fabric, if these panels use non-exotic materials and we have a few members who know how to design them, decor- and wallet-friendly acoustic panels might be a very nice DIY project. The Vicoustic DC2s are made of expanded polystyrene. Jud 1 System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
CDJ123 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Mitchco/Others: Specific to the discussion regarding DSP - I have a very nice pair of Focal Sopra 2’s in a bit of a challenging room that has been nicely treated. As a typical audiophile, I am always wondering if I can improve the sound. Since I use Dirac (which significantly helps), I occasionally wonder if getting a different pair of speakers would actually make any significant difference. If a speaker of this level has solid measurements (see “Soundstage!” National Research Council of Canada measurements) would another speaker that measures well (and after the application of room correction) actually improve things? Bringing a pair of Magico’s, Wilson’s, JBL’s, Vandersteen’s, etc., into my room to test out is really not an option. I would like to hear your thoughts. I do wonder if once a speaker is mostly full range, with solid measurements, if diminishing returns, becomes no returns with DSP/Room correction. Link to comment
Blake Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 22 minutes ago, Richard Dale said: I got some 5mm MDF panels cut, painted them black and then glued the black DC2s to the panels. Then I could mount them on the wall with sawtooth hangers just like I've done with the GIK absorber/diffuser panels on the side walls. Good idea. I am still playing around with positioning of the panels. Once I settle I will use your same method. Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jud said: What are the materials in these panels? It strikes me that with the availability of photos printed on fabric, if these panels use non-exotic materials and we have a few members who know how to design them, decor- and wallet-friendly acoustic panels might be a very nice DIY project. A couple dealer friends told me to just make the absorption panels myself. Not confident in my ability to do any such thing, I obviously purchased them. There’s really nothing to the panels. Just correct materials selection and a look if needed. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: A couple dealer friends told me to just make the absorption panels myself. Not confident in my ability to do any such thing, I obviously purchased them. There’s really nothing to the panels. Just correct materials selection and a look if needed. GIK use rockwool in their panels, and they don't cost all that much. I think you'll find if you work out how much a DIY panel would cost compared with the GIK panels it wouldn't save all that much and probably wouldn't look as good. Vicoustic and Artnovion have a higher standard of finish than GIK (although GIK are pretty excellent), and the Cherry wood in my Vicoustic Super Bass Extremes looks lovely - unless you are some kind of cabinet maker by trade I can't see how you could get anywhere near that standard of finish with a DIY project. The Computer Audiophile 1 System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 all types of panels and tube traps as well can be made DIY from inexpensive materials - for QRD you need an online calculator but it takes time to do so, and some space for at least a chop saw Link to comment
Jud Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 40 minutes ago, Richard Dale said: GIK use rockwool in their panels, and they don't cost all that much. I think you'll find if you work out how much a DIY panel would cost compared with the GIK panels it wouldn't save all that much and probably wouldn't look as good. Vicoustic and Artnovion have a higher standard of finish than GIK (although GIK are pretty excellent), and the Cherry wood in my Vicoustic Super Bass Extremes looks lovely - unless you are some kind of cabinet maker by trade I can't see how you could get anywhere near that standard of finish with a DIY project. I have a couple of neighbors with reasonably extensive home wood shops. And if the fabric is photo printed, then that becomes the highlight and you can pull it over the wood frame. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jud said: I have a couple of neighbors with reasonably extensive home wood shops. And if the fabric is photo printed, then that becomes the highlight and you can pull it over the wood frame. Photo printed similar to this? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jud said: I have a couple of neighbors with reasonably extensive home wood shops. And if the fabric is photo printed, then that becomes the highlight and you can pull it over the wood frame. OK, but note that tuned membrane panels such as Vicoustic Super Bass Extremes, GIK Scopus Bass Traps and GIK Tri-Traps with a range limiter membrane are not as easy to reproduce in a DIY project as just stuffing a filling into a decorative box. Compared with other audiophile tweaks, acoustic treatment, even designer level acoustic treatment, is much cheaper than say fancy interconnects. Ralf11 1 System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted December 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Photo printed similar to this? That's what I was thinking of, but mine would more likely look like this: The Computer Audiophile, hicr49, DuckToller and 1 other 2 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jud said: That's what I was thinking of, but mine would more likely look like this: So awesome! Jud 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Jud Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 Just now, The Computer Audiophile said: So awesome! She (our Chocolate Lab) is 10 years old and her personality hasn't changed a bit. 🙂 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post mitchco Posted December 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 hours ago, CDJ123 said: Mitchco/Others: Specific to the discussion regarding DSP - I have a very nice pair of Focal Sopra 2’s in a bit of a challenging room that has been nicely treated. As a typical audiophile, I am always wondering if I can improve the sound. Since I use Dirac (which significantly helps), I occasionally wonder if getting a different pair of speakers would actually make any significant difference. If a speaker of this level has solid measurements (see “Soundstage!” National Research Council of Canada measurements) would another speaker that measures well (and after the application of room correction) actually improve things? Bringing a pair of Magico’s, Wilson’s, JBL’s, Vandersteen’s, etc., into my room to test out is really not an option. I would like to hear your thoughts. I do wonder if once a speaker is mostly full range, with solid measurements, if diminishing returns, becomes no returns with DSP/Room correction. Hi @CDJ123 welcome to Audiophile Style! Good question. The Focal's measure pretty good based on Soundstage anechoic measurements. As Floyd Toole says, "Frequency response is the single most important aspect of the performance of any audio device. If it is wrong, nothing else matters." He also says "bass response accounts for 30% of our preference." I would agree with his statements and mirrors my own experiences. I have had the opportunity to review several loudspeakers on this site in my room and "eq" them to be similar. Here is an example of the Kii THREE's and D&D 8c's with their frequency responses overlaid: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/54065-article-dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review/page/5/?tab=comments#comment-976157 As Martijn Mensink, the designer of the D&D 8c's says, "With just some subtle EQ the two could be made to sound very similar on most program material - to the extent that I might not be able to distinguish them in a proper blind test." I would also agree, and to my ears, it is difficult to tell the two apart. I have had that experience with a number of other speakers, including comparing large floor standers to small bookshelfs, using the same subs. The loudspeakers directivity index or polar response would be next in line as one of the more important attributes of a loudspeaker besides frequency response. I wish more manufacturers followed the ANSI/CTA 2034 A Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home Loudspeakers that one can download for free or see attached. It gives a good explanation as to why smooth off axis frequency response is important and too long to put in a comment here. The standard report also includes a "predicted in-room response" (see Figure 11) so folks can get an idea of what this may sound like in a typical living room. Of course, it can't account for frequency response below the room's transition frequency, which is why we use DSP in the first place as the room is in control below Schroeder and everyone will suffer from irregular bass response. And given that bass accounts for 30% of our preference, once you have heard optimized bass response from your system, it is hard to go back. While I love the voicing of my KEL LS50's there is not much bass output below 100 Hz, so they sound much better with subs (or even a woofer 🙂 So a long winded answer to say, yes with DSP there is diminishing returns if you already have a full range loudspeaker or sats and sub(s). Whatever one can do to get the full bandwidth with smooth on and off axis response is paramount. Then use DSP to optimise the low frequency response and tailor the HF response, if required, to fully realise the value of your audio investment. ANSI-CTA-2034-A.pdf skatbelt and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 Accurate Sound Link to comment
yyz Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 @mitchco Seeing as you have the KEF LS50 and also your comparison of the KEF LS50 with the JBL, I am curious if you have tried the BACCH DSP system from Princeton? https://www.audiostream.com/content/bacch4mac-3d-audio-playback-system It is also very favorably reviewed by Soundstage.com a few times recently. They test out the $25k+ hardware version. There is a $5K MacMini software even slightly more powerful than the $25K-50K versions. They demo with KEF LS50's. https://www.theoretica.us/bacch4mac/ It would be very interesting to hear your take on this new cutting edge tech. I hope to buy the $5K MacMini variant in a few months and use in my second LS50 system. Link to comment
mitchco Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @yyz I have been aware of BACCH DSP for a while. No, I have not tried it, but sure would love to! Accurate Sound Link to comment
STC Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 5 hours ago, yyz said: hope to buy the $5K MacMini variant in a few months and use in my second LS50 system. Would love to see another audiophile going for XTC. Please post your review when you get yours. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Le Concombre Masqué Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 On 12/14/2019 at 1:17 AM, mitchco said: Hi @Matias, not directly: https://www.hometheatershack.com/threads/linear-vs-minimum-phase-filters-in-rew-for-minidsp.151513/ Have a look at @SwissBear article on using rePhase and REW together: Also have a look at: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,87538.0.html Kind regards, Mitch Hi Mitch, Swissbear’s article you point to and the tuto linked herein make me wonder about your operational protocol. My ears told me the averaging method he suggests does not work for amplitude correction. IMHO Amplitude correction should be performed based on Moving Mic Measures. So, I suggest to start with a Vector average per Swissbear, create in REW a 1/3 smoothing roughly sketched 6dB correction, import it in RePhase and export Impulse Responses as Swissbear suggests. Follow his instructions to generate Excess Phase etc. But then the fun begins. One should them perform MMM with those Impulse Responses convolved in solution of choice, would have been Roon for Chris, HQPlayer for me. Then, create more precise eQ in REW, one per channel per target, then go back to Rephase, do more tweaking to the Phase eQ (we need the Vector Average recommended by Swissbear for that to get gorgeous Impulse and Step responses), and then check the exported responses by MMM and maybe add another round for even better results. BTW, my ears told me that Pink Noise, required for MMM, such as the one on old Stereophile CD is not good enough, one can generate one from https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7395532 or consider https://www.arcaudio.com/node/245 good enough. Or maybe one should call you to come and do that very time consuming process, Mitch ! Your explanation about why Chris’ in room response should be almost flat read well. However, I’d like to stress that the choice of a target curve is not totally subjective. I think we should aim to have at Listening Position a Tonal Response matching the Mastering engineer’s. A guy who presents himself as “the best mixing engineer on the planet”, certainly with a grain of salt, writes here : https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/521064-main-eq-curve-questions.html :” It is common to use a 'House curve' in professional studios. Digital processors are sometimes used with several curves. One for TV, one for CD, one for Download perhaps. There are many of us, Bruel and Kjaer included who subscribe to a curve which is very broadly speaking +3 around 100Hz, -3 around 10KHz, and falling. This has been found to enhance the translation of mixes to the outside world.” The Bruel and Kjaer have been widely publicized since 1974. I tend to use it on classical/acoustic/consider it with older stuff/too bass heavy stuff. I use a bass rolled off (slightly : 20 Hz at 200 Hz level, much like Chris) out of respect to my Cabasse’s natural response) Harman (-1 dB/octave) too. Harman’s extended bass and accentuated treble roll off vs B&K might be a matter of choice/particular mastering ; but I’d recommend to anyone who wants to try DSP to consider +3 around 100Hz, -3 around 10KHz, and falling target. One can also look at the natural slope of his or her room before correction and see it's probably close to -1dB per octave anyway thus suggesting that even if there was no eQ at LP in the mastering room, there was a downward slope. As Sean Olive wrote( https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/11/subjective-and-objective-evaluation-of.htm ) : "The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the rom gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist." Link to comment
Le Concombre Masqué Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 10:42 PM, mitchco said: HI @Jud Yes, for example Acourate and Audiolense can generate linear phase DSP filters that maintain linear phase throughout. Cheers, Mitch Hi Mitch, like Jud I also use linear phase filters when I do sample rate conversion (except if percussive sounds prevail). However, based ie on such reading :https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/782708-linear-phase-quot-pre-ringing-quot-audio-examples.html , I opted for the default Minimum Phase eQ banks in Rephase. What is your opinion ? Link to comment
firedog Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Okay, dumb question, but I can't figure this out: How do I get a "live" (not simulated) measurement of my room sound with the DRC/convolution applied? I can't figure out how to apply the DRC to the test sweep in any of the measurement programs, and measure the result in real time. Sorry if this is obvious and I'm just not seeing it. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post StreamFidelity Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted January 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, firedog said: How do I get a "live" (not simulated) measurement of my room sound with the DRC/convolution applied? In acourate you can use LogSweep Recorder. Put the convolution in "Filter 2 channel" and meassure. The result is very similar to the test. firedog and mitchco 2 Grigg Audio Solutions Owner StreamFidelitys Setup: Sonus Faber Amati Futura | T+A M10 | T+A SDV 3100 HV | fis Audio PC & Server | GigaWatt PC4-EVO+ | JCAT OPTIMO S ATX | FARAD Super10 & Super3 | Keces P8 | Afterdark Buffalo Switch | fis Audio Cables | Solidsteel HJ-3 / HY-A Link to comment
Darryl R Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 I have the same speakers as Chris, and thanks to some kind advise from him I decided to get bass traps and panels for the 1st and 2nd reflection points from ATS (and very affordably). With just the bass traps installed today my bottom end is much more focused. StreamFidelity 1 Link to comment
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