The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 View full article Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, austinpop said: Excellent article! Wow Chris, you make me intensely jealous. I need to find an excuse to visit Minneapolis to have a listen! Thanks for laying out the steps you took, as I'm sure this is what daunts audiophiles the most. I've already forwarded your article to several of my friends who want to "do something about the room," but are paralyzed by the complexity of the endeavor. Can you give us a ballpark estimate of what the room treatments cost? I will say that the last step of DSP, while tantalizing, is also daunting, as most people don't have the benefit of a Mitch giving them counsel. Hi Rajiv - Thanks for the kind words. You have an open invitation anytime you're in Minneapolis. I should've included prices in the article. The 24 Vicoustic Cinema Round Premium absorption panels were right around $2,000 total plus shipping. The 6 Vicoustic Multifuser DC2 diffusion panels were around $700 total plus shipping. The 2 ATS Acoustics Corner Bass Traps (24x48) were roughly $300 total plus $125 to ship. The Vicoustic room project was only like $50 if I remember correctly, and that was taken off my order total. Fortunately, @mitchco just started his own business where he will handle the daunting task of DSP for anyone - https://accuratesound.ca/ austinpop, DuckToller and Matias 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, DuckToller said: I'd find it interesting to hear about the perceived differences between of the different target curves or what the EBU 3276 made better than the others for the klick ? Hi Tom - This was a really fun exercise because there was no risk and the reward was high. Mitch sent me files, I uploaded them to Roon, and started listening. The first few filters really took the edge off transients for me and really collapsed the air around an instrument. When a drummer kicks the bass drum, one can often hear the snare head and wire vibrate in good recordings. Using the first few filters, this was totally gone. The overall sound was a bit off, although the bass issues were gone. The EBU 3276 curve is IT for me in my room. DuckToller 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Enjoyed the article. Did you do any mic'ing of the room before doing the ceiling panels? I see diffusors on the side walls, but none on the rear wall (or covering the glass doors) - correct? And no tmts. on the top ceiling (horizontal part) - correct? Due to strange timing of stuff coming and going I don’t have before and after measurements for my room with these speakers and these room treatments. 9 minutes ago, emcdade said: Chris, awesome write-up and thanks for sharing! Just curious, have you tried applying DSP to only 200 hz and below yet? I've found that to be the best of both worlds. Since DSP is altering the direct sound of your loudspeakers, I am typically against running broadband EQ. Our ear/brain can "cue into" that direct sound from the speakers in a way that a microphone never could and filter out a good portion of the room sound that's causing your in-room response to not match the speakers anechoic response (which is very good w/ a Wilson obviously). That said, there's never a harm in trying anything. You just might like the broadband EQ better and there's nothing wrong with that! I tried using DSP on only the bottom end but believe the way it’s configured now is best. By the way, this isn’t EQ 🙂 ecwl 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 39 minutes ago, wgscott said: Great article. I have very similar French doors. The resonance drives me nuts. Do you have that problem? I want to take them out, but the owner of the house won't allow it (as long as it doesn't interfere with the PBS pledge drive, I guess it is just fine and dandy). Thanks Prof. I initially thought the doors would be a showstopper but I was wrong. I talked to a few acousticians and all of them said not to worry. So I didn’t. The measured response between doors open and closed isn’t that big and each position offers something the other doesn’t. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, Archimago said: @The Computer Audiophile, Great work Chris! You've really set the bar in reviewer transparency among the audiophile sites. It is amazing when so much of audiophilia focuses on the "next great thing" with electronics and products that we miss out on the fundamentals of room, speaker placement, and ways of optimization. Stunning when we read about claims by various subjective reviewers or watch videos about what they claim to "hear" yet have no idea what kind of attention has been paid to one of the most important "components" of all (the room). Thanks for putting this out there... It’s crazy how much of my music I can hear now that I’ve gone through this fairly painless process. It also exposes equipment differences much better because they aren’t masked by my room. wgscott, Matias, firedog and 2 others 3 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 28 minutes ago, wgscott said: I've sometimes wondered if DSP might mask equipment differences, especially with speakers (assuming one re-generates a response filter for each set of equipment to be compared). Interesting. I don’t see this happening with anything but speakers. Even then, I think it would be fairly hard to make two reasonably different speakers sound the same with only a convolution filter. I could be wrong though. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 14, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 14, 2019 4 hours ago, Mercman said: Congratulations on achieving a wonderful setup for the Alexia 2s. I have a question; what is the sample rate limit for the filter you are using? The sound staging capabilities of the Alexia 2 are damn impressive! Hi Merc - I’m unsure of the limits, but I’m sure @mitchco will know. He created filters for me at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, and 192. I just upload one zip file to Roon and it handles switching between them based on the rate of the track. bunno77 and ecwl 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, bunno77 said: It is late here so maybe I am not looking correctly but I don't see any contact details on this site mitch (at) accuratesound.ca bunno77 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 14, 2019 Author Share Posted December 14, 2019 14 minutes ago, ShawnC said: @The Computer Audiophile, How did you wire from your DAC or preamp to your left Amplifier? Seeing all your equipment is on the right side (except the left amp and speaker). did you go under the floor/carpeting or above the ceiling? I'm assuming your using XLR for the runs. I see a hole in the wall where it feeds from, just curious. I'm running balanced cables throughout my system. On the other side of the walls on each side of the listening room is a crawl space. I used a hole saw to drill holes on each side, through the floor. Then I ran the cable for the left channel under the floor & through the wall. Much better than going under the carpet. Sure there are possible issues with length of cable and using a different circuit (although same audio sub-panel) for power, but there's no perfect system. 14 minutes ago, ShawnC said: Maybe you could post a short video of your current setup, walking us through your Audio chain and seeing the back of your equipment, speakers and room layout. Ah, that would be fun. I didn't think anyone would be interested. ShawnC 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 36 minutes ago, johniboy24 said: @The Computer Audiophile I have a question regarding the in-room response graph you posted. Are the before and after graphs even comparable? The "before" graph is at around 85db while the "after" graph is below 70db, so a lot quieter. I always thought if you put more energy into the room, so listen to music louder you will also experience more effect of the room (and more problems)? Let's ask @mitchco for an official response. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 15 minutes ago, wgb113 said: Chris, The new space looks great, glad to hear that it's sounding great as well. Addressing the room was a real ear-opener for me. I'm going to attempt to add the icing (DSP) to the cake while I have some time off over the next couple of weeks using REW, UMIK-1 and Roon. Bill P.S. Jealous of those Ikea chairs...by the time I went to scoop up a pair they were gone! Thanks Bill. Be sure to let us know how it goes with the DSP. The best part is that nothing is permanent. If you screw up the sound, just disable it :~) Yes, the 1957 Ikea limited edition 2019 reproduction was quite a find! Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, thyname said: Thanks for sharing Chris! A lot of work I am sure, but it sounds like very rewarding. I found the below paragraph from you frustrating. So we still have to go back to “trusting our ears”, even when it comes to applying DSP in a scientific way? ——- At first I wasn't thrilled with the results. I believed the transients were rounded at the edges far too much for my taste. This coupled with the fact that I was used to listening without any DSP for my entire life, made me frustrated. I reported back to Mitch everything I heard, liked, and disliked. His response to me was very reassuring. He said not to worry because there are many industry standard curves to try and many small adjustments he can make to the filter. Over several weeks Mitch sent me more filters to try. I was traveling much of this time, so I assume we could've hammered out my issues pretty quick if I could dedicate more time to the effort. Mitch sent filters based on ITU, B&K and Bob Katz target curves before sending the EBU 3276 target curve. I liked the direction he was taking my system with the ITU curve, but when I pressed play with the EBU 3276 curve enabled, I was sold. My system was really singing. My room was out of the picture, and the music was right there in front of me. —— I wouldn’t be frustrated because of that experience. It’s actually quite cool because there are options to get the sound as close as possible to the source, at your listening position. That’s why there are several standards. It’s like if you prefer DSD over PCM. That’s not frustrating it’s just preference. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, thyname said: So again, trusting your ears? If a correctly applied DSP does not “fix” it the first time around, then wouldn’t you messing around with switching things around to match your listening preferences? I mean if the DSP is correctly applied at first go, as it should be, why would one tweak it? Or are you saying different people have different preferences in terms of how something sounds? Shocker! DSP isn’t black and white. There’s no way to capture the audio at the listening position and compare it to the source using a diff file and get real results. It seems your looking for something that can’t be found or you’re looking for me to explicitly state I have to trust my ears? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, thyname said: Sure! 😂. In all seriousness, the frustrating part with DSP is that one cannot be certain a certain setting will make thing better or worse. For your ears, that is. But you are right, it’s all worth experimenting until finding something that sounds better than current sound It’s actually pretty easy to do. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, STC said: Actually you can but you need a binaural microphone, pink noise and correction filter. But the main point was that you won’t get real results you can use. Capture all you want, it won’t be usable in terms of adjusting the DSP filter. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 5 hours ago, mitchco said: Hello. There are 4 common industry standard target frequency responses used to calibrate monitors in sound production control rooms. B&K, Toole and Olive, ITU and EBU 3276. And overlaid on one chart: Given that each target has a +- 3 dB tolerance, effectively each target overlaps one another, all with a downward frequency response at the listening position. This is because loudspeakers are omnidirectional at low frequencies with narrowing directivity at higher frequencies. The rising bass energy yields a steady-state room curve with a downward tilt. This is important to note because ones preference for one target or the other is based on a number of factors, all coming into play at once. Size of listening room, directivity index or polar response of the loudspeakers, distance from speakers to listener (there is a spec with a range), how much direct versus reflected sound is being heard at the listening position based on how lively or dead the listening environment is, also with spec and range of operation. All of these factors play into which target one prefers, with the common theme of how much or little high frequency response is required based on these factors. For example, in my room with narrow directivity loudspeakers and a fairly large and lively room (600 ms broadband decay time) with a 9ft equilateral triangle, I prefer the Toole Olive target response. Sounds neutral to my ears given this combination of loudspeaker/room. On the other hand, Chris's loudspeakers are wider directivity, also larger room. but with a 200ms broadband decay time. In order to hear the same perceived neutral response, more direct high frequency energy is required to arrive at Chris's listening position as compared to my loudspeakers in my room. Normally, I would deliver all 4 target responses at once for your loudspeakers in your room. As Chris has shown in Roon, one can easily flip through different filters as music is playing and choose what sounds best to your ears. Toole and Olive have shown in participant listening studies that as Floyd Toole describes, accurate and preferred are synonymous. Due to schedules, I delivered Chris one filter set at a time, instead of all 4. And started with the target with the most rolled off top end 🙂 LOL! Exactly what he did not need. The 4th target delivered, weeks later, should have been the first. I would hazard a guess that is the frustration. It turned out for the better that I received the other curves first. I learned much more and became very familiar with their differences. mitchco 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Jud said: What are the materials in these panels? It strikes me that with the availability of photos printed on fabric, if these panels use non-exotic materials and we have a few members who know how to design them, decor- and wallet-friendly acoustic panels might be a very nice DIY project. A couple dealer friends told me to just make the absorption panels myself. Not confident in my ability to do any such thing, I obviously purchased them. There’s really nothing to the panels. Just correct materials selection and a look if needed. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jud said: I have a couple of neighbors with reasonably extensive home wood shops. And if the fabric is photo printed, then that becomes the highlight and you can pull it over the wood frame. Photo printed similar to this? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jud said: That's what I was thinking of, but mine would more likely look like this: So awesome! Jud 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, Darryl R said: I have the same speakers as Chris, and thanks to some kind advise from him I decided to get bass traps and panels for the 1st and 2nd reflection points from ATS (and very affordably). With just the bass traps installed today my bottom end is much more focused. Great to hear! Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 38 minutes ago, Darryl R said: Hi, thanks, and sure. My gear is listed in the system tab of my profile. To stay on topic here, the room acoustic treatments are the thing I'd neglected, and ATS makes them affordable for everyone. The bass traps made a big difference. Thanks for the info Darryl. I highly recommend working with @mitchco on some optional DSP. He has worked with “our” speakers a few times in different rooms. His work can take your system to another level. It has with mine. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted May 31, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted May 31, 2020 42 minutes ago, Temporal_Dissident said: Great piece, @The Computer Audiophile. I am about 6mos in with my new system (Roon>dCS>Parasound>Wilson Yvette). I love it, but it is *deeply* compromised by my room. I know many of you referance “wife acceptance factor” or some such when it comes to listening rooms and system design, but in my case it is extreme. We do not have a dedicated listening room, so the system lives in our main living room. Nothing about the architecture or construction of our old house would be considered acoustically advantageous. My wonderful wife is an architect and designer who is perfectly content listening to music on her iPhone’s speaker (🤮). She has furnished/decorated the room beautifully, but again, with zero consideration for acoustics. After all of that, I was able to come in and drop my dream system into this hostile environment. The system sounds,....(insert adjective). Of course this depends. If, like most people I know, you love the sound of Spotify through SONOS, our system sounds freaking incredible. On the other hand, if you set this system up in an ideal acoustic environment, I think it could sound twice as good. I know that, I hear that, and it bugs me. What to do? I love this article and, on Chris’ advice, am happy to now be working with @mitchco. But I know I am still dealing with some severe, non-negotiable constraints. Maybe, just maybe, I can sneak some acoustic treatments into the room. But for now, DSP is my best hope as it is a truly “invisible hand” that does not impact room aesthetics. Thoughts, suggestions, jokes, or thrown tomatoes welcome.... Absolutely gorgeous room! I’d love to have such a system in my living room where I could listen with my family and easily expose visitors to the joys of great sound. working with Mitch will do wonders, but not miracles. Check out Vicoustic for some very tasteful room treatments. You can even customize them. if you want some different inspiration, check out Wolfgang’s store outside of Munich. Here’s an article about my trip, with video. keep in mind, everything there on the walls is for acoustics. Temporal_Dissident and Jud 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
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