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Article: A New Listening Room Part Two: Acoustics, Speakers, DSP


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15 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

I'd find it interesting to hear about the perceived differences between of the different target curves or what the EBU 3276 made better than the others for the klick ?

Hi Tom - This was a really fun exercise because there was no risk and the reward was high. Mitch sent me files, I uploaded them to Roon, and started listening. 

 

The first few filters really took the edge off transients for me and really collapsed the air around an instrument. When a drummer kicks the bass drum, one can often hear the snare head and wire vibrate in good recordings. Using the first few filters, this was totally gone. The overall sound was a bit off, although the bass issues were gone. 

 

The EBU 3276 curve is IT for me in my room. 

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17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Enjoyed the article.  Did you do any mic'ing of the room before doing the ceiling panels?

 

I see diffusors on the side walls, but none on the rear wall (or covering the glass doors) - correct?

 

And no tmts. on the top ceiling (horizontal part) - correct?


Due to strange timing of stuff coming and going I don’t have before and after measurements for my room with these speakers and these room treatments. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, emcdade said:

Chris, awesome write-up and thanks for sharing!

 

Just curious, have you tried applying DSP to only 200 hz and below yet?

 

I've found that to be the best of both worlds.  Since DSP is altering the direct sound of your loudspeakers, I am typically against running broadband EQ.  Our ear/brain can "cue into" that direct sound from the speakers in a way that a microphone never could and filter out a good portion of the room sound that's causing your in-room response to not match the speakers anechoic response (which is very good w/ a Wilson obviously).

 

That said, there's never a harm in trying anything.  You just might like the broadband EQ better and there's nothing wrong with that!

 

I tried using DSP on only the bottom end but believe the way it’s configured now is best. By the way, this isn’t EQ 🙂

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39 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Great article.

 

I have very similar French doors.  The resonance drives me nuts.  Do you have that problem?  I want to take them out, but the owner of the house won't allow it (as long as it doesn't interfere with the PBS pledge drive, I guess it is just fine and dandy).

Thanks Prof. 
 

I initially thought the doors would be a showstopper but I was wrong. I talked to a few acousticians and all of them said not to worry. So I didn’t. 
 

The measured response between doors open and closed isn’t that big and each position offers something the other doesn’t. 

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28 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

I've sometimes wondered if DSP might mask equipment differences, especially with speakers (assuming one re-generates a response filter for each set of equipment to be compared).

Interesting. 
 

I don’t see this happening with anything but speakers. Even then, I think it would be fairly hard to make two reasonably different speakers sound the same with only a convolution filter. 
 

I could be wrong though. 

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14 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

@The Computer Audiophile, How did you wire from your DAC or preamp to your left Amplifier?  Seeing all your equipment is on the right side (except the left amp and speaker). did you go under the floor/carpeting or above the ceiling? I'm assuming your using XLR for the runs.  I see a hole in the wall where it feeds from, just curious.

 

I'm running balanced cables throughout my system. On the other side of the walls on each side of the listening room is a crawl space. I used a hole saw to drill holes on each side, through the floor. Then I ran the cable for the left channel under the floor & through the wall. Much better than going under the carpet.

 

Sure there are possible issues with length of cable and using a different circuit (although same audio sub-panel) for power, but there's no perfect system.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

Maybe you could post a short video of your current setup, walking us through your Audio chain and seeing the back of your equipment, speakers and room layout.

 

Ah, that would be fun. I didn't think anyone would be interested.

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36 minutes ago, johniboy24 said:

@The Computer Audiophile

I have a question regarding the in-room response graph you posted. Are the before and after graphs even comparable? The "before" graph is at around 85db while the "after" graph is below 70db, so a lot quieter. I always thought if you put more energy into the room, so listen to music louder you will also experience more effect of the room (and more problems)?

Let's ask @mitchco for an official response. 

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15 minutes ago, wgb113 said:

Chris,

 

The new space looks great, glad to hear that it's sounding great as well.  Addressing the room was a real ear-opener for me.  I'm going to attempt to add the icing (DSP) to the cake while I have some time off over the next couple of weeks using REW, UMIK-1 and Roon.

 

Bill

 

P.S. Jealous of those Ikea chairs...by the time I went to scoop up a pair they were gone!

Thanks Bill. Be sure to let us know how it goes with the DSP. The best part is that nothing is permanent. If you screw up the sound, just disable it :~)

 

Yes, the 1957 Ikea limited edition 2019 reproduction was quite a find! 

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23 minutes ago, thyname said:

Thanks for sharing Chris! A lot of work I am sure, but it sounds like very rewarding.

 

I found the below paragraph from you frustrating. So we still have to go back to “trusting our ears”, even when it comes to applying DSP in a scientific way?

 

——-

 

At first I wasn't thrilled with the results. I believed the transients were rounded at the edges far too much for my taste. This coupled with the fact that I was used to listening without any DSP for my entire life, made me frustrated. I reported back to Mitch everything I heard, liked, and disliked. His response to me was very reassuring. He said not to worry because there are many industry standard curves to try and many small adjustments he can make to the filter. 

 

Over several weeks Mitch sent me more filters to try. I was traveling much of this time, so I assume we could've hammered out my issues pretty quick if I could dedicate more time to the effort. Mitch sent filters based on ITU, B&K and Bob Katz target curves before sending the EBU 3276 target curve. I liked the direction he was taking my system with the ITU curve, but when I pressed play with the EBU 3276 curve enabled, I was sold. My system was really singing. My room was out of the picture, and the music was right there in front of me. 

 

 

——


I wouldn’t be frustrated because of that experience. It’s actually quite cool because there are options to get the sound as close as possible to the source, at your listening position. That’s why there are several standards. It’s like if you prefer DSD over PCM. That’s not frustrating it’s just preference. 

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23 minutes ago, thyname said:


So again, trusting your ears? If a correctly applied DSP does not “fix” it the first time around, then wouldn’t you messing around with switching things around to match your listening preferences? I mean if the DSP is correctly applied at first go, as it should be, why would one tweak it? Or are you saying different people have different preferences in terms of how something sounds? Shocker!

DSP isn’t black and white. There’s no way to capture the audio at the listening position and compare it to the source using a diff file and get real results. 
 

It seems your looking for something that can’t be found or you’re looking for me to explicitly state I have to trust my ears?

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25 minutes ago, thyname said:


Sure! 😂.

 

In all seriousness, the frustrating part with DSP is that one cannot be certain a certain setting will make thing better or worse. For your ears, that is. But you are right, it’s all worth experimenting until finding something that sounds better than current sound

It’s actually pretty easy to do. 

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5 hours ago, mitchco said:

Hello. There are 4 common industry standard target frequency responses used to calibrate monitors in sound production control rooms. B&K, Toole and Olive, ITU and EBU 3276. And overlaid on one chart:

 

Industry Standards Operational Room Response Targets.jpg

 

Given that each target has a +- 3 dB tolerance, effectively each target overlaps one another, all with a downward frequency response at the listening position. This is because loudspeakers are omnidirectional at low frequencies with narrowing directivity at higher frequencies. The rising bass energy yields a steady-state room curve with a downward tilt.

 

This is important to note because ones preference for one target or the other is based on a number of factors, all coming into play at once. Size of listening room, directivity index or polar response of the loudspeakers, distance from speakers to listener (there is a spec with a range), how much direct versus reflected sound is being heard at the listening position based on how lively or dead the listening environment is, also with spec and range of operation. All of these factors play into which target one prefers, with the common theme of how much or little high frequency response is required based on these factors.

 

For example, in my room with narrow directivity loudspeakers and a fairly large and lively room (600 ms broadband decay time) with a 9ft equilateral triangle, I prefer the Toole Olive target response. Sounds neutral to my ears given this combination of loudspeaker/room.

 

On the other hand, Chris's loudspeakers are wider directivity, also larger room. but with a 200ms broadband decay time. In order to hear the same perceived neutral response, more direct high frequency energy is required to arrive at Chris's listening position as compared to my loudspeakers in my room.

 

Normally, I would deliver all 4 target responses at once for your loudspeakers in your room. As Chris has shown in Roon, one can easily flip through different filters as music is playing and choose what sounds best to your ears. Toole and Olive have shown in participant listening studies that as Floyd Toole describes, accurate and preferred are synonymous

 

Due to schedules, I delivered Chris one filter set at a time, instead of all 4. And started with the target with the most rolled off top end 🙂 LOL! Exactly what he did not need. The 4th target delivered, weeks later, should have been the first. I would hazard a guess that is the frustration.

It turned out for the better that I received the other curves first. I learned much more and became very familiar with their differences. 

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11 minutes ago, Jud said:

What are the materials in these panels?

 

It strikes me that with the availability of photos printed on fabric, if these panels use non-exotic materials and we have a few members who know how to design them, decor- and wallet-friendly acoustic panels might be a very nice DIY project.

A couple dealer friends told me to just make the absorption panels myself. Not confident in my ability to do any such thing, I obviously purchased them. 
 

There’s really nothing to the panels. Just correct materials selection and a look if needed. 

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  • 1 month later...
28 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

I have the same speakers as Chris, and thanks to some kind advise from him I decided to get bass traps and panels for the 1st and 2nd reflection points from ATS (and very affordably).  With just the bass traps installed today my bottom end is much more focused.

 

IMG_0152.JPG

Great to hear!

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38 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

Hi, thanks, and sure.  My gear is listed in the system tab of my profile.  To stay on topic here, the room acoustic treatments are the thing I'd neglected, and ATS makes them affordable for everyone.  The bass traps made a big difference.

 

IMG_0154.JPG

Thanks for the info Darryl. I highly recommend working with @mitchco on some optional DSP. He has worked with “our” speakers a few times in different rooms. His work can take your system to another level. It has with mine. 

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