The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 View full article Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
EdmontonCanuck Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Thanks Chris...this was a very fun and enjoyable article to read for me. What a beautiful system and room.....I doubt that I'll ever get a chance to personally own such an amazing system as yours, but I'm thrilled to live vicariously through you and your audio journey! Thanks for sharing! The Computer Audiophile 1 CAPS Pipeline with HDPlex Linear PSU running Win10 64 bit, AO 2.0, RoonServer, HQPlayer -> T+A DAC8 DSD -> Linear Tube Audio's MicroZOTL2 Headphone Amp with Mojo Audio's Illuminati Linear PSU -> Focal Utopia/Audeze LCD-3 Link to comment
austinpop Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Excellent article! Wow Chris, you make me intensely jealous. I need to find an excuse to visit Minneapolis to have a listen! Thanks for laying out the steps you took, as I'm sure this is what daunts audiophiles the most. I've already forwarded your article to several of my friends who want to "do something about the room," but are paralyzed by the complexity of the endeavor. Can you give us a ballpark estimate of what the room treatments cost? I will say that the last step of DSP, while tantalizing, is also daunting, as most people don't have the benefit of a Mitch giving them counsel. The Computer Audiophile 1 My Audio Setup Link to comment
Matias Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experience! The Computer Audiophile 1 1. WiiM Pro - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NCx500+SS2590 - March Audio Sointuva AWG 2. LG 77C1 - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NC502MP+NC252MP - Monitor Audio PL100+PLC150+C265 - SVS SB-3000 3. PC - RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP 4. Phone - Tanchjim Space - Truthear Zero Red 5. PC - Keysion ES2981 - Truthear Zero Red Link to comment
Popular Post Matias Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, austinpop said: I will say that the last step of DSP, while tantalizing, is also daunting, as most people don't have the benefit of a Mitch giving them counsel. Would be great if @mitchco could write an article of what he did, step by step, if it was something different or just following his guidelines. audiobomber and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 1. WiiM Pro - Mola Mola Makua - Apollon NCx500+SS2590 - March Audio Sointuva AWG 2. LG 77C1 - Marantz SR7005 - Apollon NC502MP+NC252MP - Monitor Audio PL100+PLC150+C265 - SVS SB-3000 3. PC - RME ADI-2 DAC FS - Neumann KH 80 DSP 4. Phone - Tanchjim Space - Truthear Zero Red 5. PC - Keysion ES2981 - Truthear Zero Red Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, austinpop said: Excellent article! Wow Chris, you make me intensely jealous. I need to find an excuse to visit Minneapolis to have a listen! Thanks for laying out the steps you took, as I'm sure this is what daunts audiophiles the most. I've already forwarded your article to several of my friends who want to "do something about the room," but are paralyzed by the complexity of the endeavor. Can you give us a ballpark estimate of what the room treatments cost? I will say that the last step of DSP, while tantalizing, is also daunting, as most people don't have the benefit of a Mitch giving them counsel. Hi Rajiv - Thanks for the kind words. You have an open invitation anytime you're in Minneapolis. I should've included prices in the article. The 24 Vicoustic Cinema Round Premium absorption panels were right around $2,000 total plus shipping. The 6 Vicoustic Multifuser DC2 diffusion panels were around $700 total plus shipping. The 2 ATS Acoustics Corner Bass Traps (24x48) were roughly $300 total plus $125 to ship. The Vicoustic room project was only like $50 if I remember correctly, and that was taken off my order total. Fortunately, @mitchco just started his own business where he will handle the daunting task of DSP for anyone - https://accuratesound.ca/ austinpop, DuckToller and Matias 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post DuckToller Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 Thank you Chris, for this audiophile Xmas-Story (no pun intended). It's good to know that there is a chance of overcoming the circumstances (the room) with doing the right things in correct order and end up in a situation one had dreamed about at the beginning. Bien-être for the audiophile soul and that journey that our hobby is! Love that! I'd find it interesting to hear about the perceived differences between of the different target curves or what the EBU 3276 made better than the others for the klick ? Best, Tom The Computer Audiophile and Matias 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post mitchco Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 Chris, great write up and thanks for the shout out! You have done an excellent job of optimising your audio investment. I am glad you went with 2/3 of the room treatments. Your rooms decay time is right in line with industry standards and any more absorption would likely start absorbing the life out of the music.The Alexia's are indeed full range loudspeakers which allows the DSP to maximise their potential to 20 Hz to 20 kHz frequency response ±3 dB tolerance along the target curve at the listening position. It doesn't get any better than that! I hope you are enjoying the music! Mitch Matias, The Computer Audiophile, pkane2001 and 1 other 1 3 Accurate Sound Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, DuckToller said: I'd find it interesting to hear about the perceived differences between of the different target curves or what the EBU 3276 made better than the others for the klick ? Hi Tom - This was a really fun exercise because there was no risk and the reward was high. Mitch sent me files, I uploaded them to Roon, and started listening. The first few filters really took the edge off transients for me and really collapsed the air around an instrument. When a drummer kicks the bass drum, one can often hear the snare head and wire vibrate in good recordings. Using the first few filters, this was totally gone. The overall sound was a bit off, although the bass issues were gone. The EBU 3276 curve is IT for me in my room. DuckToller 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Enjoyed the article. Did you do any mic'ing of the room before doing the ceiling panels? I see diffusors on the side walls, but none on the rear wall (or covering the glass doors) - correct? And no tmts. on the top ceiling (horizontal part) - correct? Link to comment
emcdade Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Chris, awesome write-up and thanks for sharing! Just curious, have you tried applying DSP to only 200 hz and below yet? I've found that to be the best of both worlds. Since DSP is altering the direct sound of your loudspeakers, I am typically against running broadband EQ. Our ear/brain can "cue into" that direct sound from the speakers in a way that a microphone never could and filter out a good portion of the room sound that's causing your in-room response to not match the speakers anechoic response (which is very good w/ a Wilson obviously). That said, there's never a harm in trying anything. You just might like the broadband EQ better and there's nothing wrong with that! skatbelt 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Enjoyed the article. Did you do any mic'ing of the room before doing the ceiling panels? I see diffusors on the side walls, but none on the rear wall (or covering the glass doors) - correct? And no tmts. on the top ceiling (horizontal part) - correct? Due to strange timing of stuff coming and going I don’t have before and after measurements for my room with these speakers and these room treatments. 9 minutes ago, emcdade said: Chris, awesome write-up and thanks for sharing! Just curious, have you tried applying DSP to only 200 hz and below yet? I've found that to be the best of both worlds. Since DSP is altering the direct sound of your loudspeakers, I am typically against running broadband EQ. Our ear/brain can "cue into" that direct sound from the speakers in a way that a microphone never could and filter out a good portion of the room sound that's causing your in-room response to not match the speakers anechoic response (which is very good w/ a Wilson obviously). That said, there's never a harm in trying anything. You just might like the broadband EQ better and there's nothing wrong with that! I tried using DSP on only the bottom end but believe the way it’s configured now is best. By the way, this isn’t EQ 🙂 ecwl 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Due to strange timing of stuff coming and going I don’t have before and after measurements for my room with these speakers and these room treatments. 🙂 you could rip it all out for some mic'ing and then put it all back again... The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Richard Dale Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Hi Rajiv - Thanks for the kind words. You have an open invitation anytime you're in Minneapolis. I should've included prices in the article. The 24 Vicoustic Cinema Round Premium absorption panels were right around $2,000 total plus shipping. The 6 Vicoustic Multifuser DC2 diffusion panels were around $700 total plus shipping. The 2 ATS Acoustics Corner Bass Traps (24x48) were roughly $300 total plus $125 to ship. The Vicoustic room project was only like $50 if I remember correctly, and that was taken off my order total. Fortunately, @mitchco just started his own business where he will handle the daunting task of DSP for anyone - https://accuratesound.ca/ A very interesting article and it's good to hear you've ended up with an excellent result. I've become a room treatment obsessive in the last two years, and it is nice to see it being promoted in HiFi publications not just studio ones. Is is possible to post an REW waterfall view of the room modes before the DSP was applied, as the frequency response isn't so informative? The only thing I'm a bit puzzled about is why you stopped at just two bass traps. I can see from the photos of the sloping ceiling that you couldn't just stack a couple more of the ATS traps on top of the two you have. Would it have been possible to install bass traps at celing level at the wall ceiling boundaries in places where the wall doesn't slope. Or maybe horizontally suspended from the ceiling? If the rear of the room is the same as the front would it be possible to add another pair of the ATS traps in the rear corners? System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 Great article. I have very similar French doors. The resonance drives me nuts. Do you have that problem? I want to take them out, but the owner of the house won't allow it (as long as it doesn't interfere with the PBS pledge drive, I guess it is just fine and dandy). The Computer Audiophile and Jud 2 Link to comment
firedog Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Chris, sounds fantastic. Would love to hear your room. In my room I installed room treatments and bass traps with advice from GIK. Worked very well. Got rid of all kinds of echo I had in the room and made the sound more focused. I'd had some earlier experience with DRC (via TACT and Lyngorf units), so I used the basic version of Auidiolense to get rid of a bass node and further smooth response (which was already pretty good). I also just played with a few target curves till I made one I liked. Ended up with flat response till 3000hz and then a gently downward sloping curve after that of a few db till 20khz. Taking off more db (like the -10db slope from 20-20000hz often talked about) sounded "dead" to me. I also used DSP to add in a 0.5db boost from 100-400hz, just because my personal taste says adding in a upper bass - lower mids bump sounds better than perfectly flat response in that area. The final result sounds good to me, although I'm sure professional help would improve my results even more. I also haven't been able to figure out how to use the Room Shaper program, although I'd like to see what it would add to the mix. I think a lot of audiophiles could do a reasonable job of this on their own. There are also units like Lyngdorf and DEQX which will do it for you (and also replace DACs and/or preamps) if you don't want to fool around with software. The Computer Audiophile 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Author Share Posted December 13, 2019 39 minutes ago, wgscott said: Great article. I have very similar French doors. The resonance drives me nuts. Do you have that problem? I want to take them out, but the owner of the house won't allow it (as long as it doesn't interfere with the PBS pledge drive, I guess it is just fine and dandy). Thanks Prof. I initially thought the doors would be a showstopper but I was wrong. I talked to a few acousticians and all of them said not to worry. So I didn’t. The measured response between doors open and closed isn’t that big and each position offers something the other doesn’t. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Bill, you can angle the speakers and/or put something on the glass - even paper drawings done by children will help Link to comment
MarkS Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 I have a really dumb question. With DSP, why does one need treatments? Can’t everything be done by DSP? - Mark Synology DS916+ > SoTM dCBL-CAT7 > Netgear switch > SoTM dCBL-CAT7 > dCS Vivaldi Upsampler (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 Dual 110 Ohm AES/EBU > dCS Vivaldi DAC (David Elrod Statement Gold power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 xlr > Absolare Passion preamp (Nordost Valhalla 2 power cord) > Nordost Valhalla 2 xlr > VTL MB-450 III (Shunyata King Cobra CX power cords) > Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker > Kaiser Kaewero Classic /JL Audio F110 (Wireworld Platinum power cord). Power Conditioning: Entreq Olympus Tellus grounding (AC, preamp and dac) / Shunyata Hydra Triton + Typhoon (Shunyata Anaconda ZiTron umbilical/Shunyata King Cobra CX power cord) > Furutec GTX D-Rhodium AC outlet. Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Bill, you can angle the speakers and/or put something on the glass - even paper drawings done by children will help Mine are off to the side, but I could try plastering them over with rejected grant applications or something. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 perfect for diffusor panels on a roll-away BTW, in my (much less lucrative) field, grad. students in an adjacent lab once covered an entire wall with job rejection letters... Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 also just realized that a Golden Retr. genetically engineered into Wookie form would be perfect to cover the glass doors Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: also just realized that a Golden Retr. genetically engineered into Wookie form would be perfect to cover the glass doors If you look closely at the bottom left, next to the fan, you can see we have already over-expressed the construct. (The fan is there because the ceiling fan failed.) Link to comment
Popular Post mitchco Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 22 minutes ago, MarkS said: I have a really dumb question. With DSP, why does one need treatments? Can’t everything be done by DSP? Mark, not a dumb question. DSP can't absorb or diffuse the sound in a room. So if your room sounds like a bare room echo chamber, DSP can't attenuate the echo or long sound decay at higher frequencies. You need absorption and sometimes a combo of absorption and diffusion. DSP can manipulate the frequency response including the room plus loudspeakers at lower frequencies and just the loudspeaker's direct sound at higher frequencies. DSP can be used for digital crossovers, time alignment of drivers, excess phase correction and the list goes on. DSP can also reduce low frequency room resonances. For living rooms that are fully furnished, drapes, carpet, book cases, etc., it is likely that the rooms decay time falls within the spec as there is a range of operation. So in those cases, acoustic treatments are not likley required. Hope that helps. Matias, emcdade, The Computer Audiophile and 1 other 2 2 Accurate Sound Link to comment
Jud Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 As long as you're looking in, @mitchco - I have Vandersteens, which have linear phase crossovers. I also use linear phase filters when I do sample rate conversion. It seems to me this helps keep things time-and-phase aligned and thus helps with imaging. I was wondering whether there is DSP that would maintain this linear phase characteristic. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
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