Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

[KeenObserver]

We have the never ending subjectivist/objectivist argument.

 

Going back to the beginning of reproduced sound, which group was most responsible for bringing us to the current state of affairs.

 

I can just imagine:

Bell: "Come here Watson, I need you".

Watson: Wow! That sounds like shit".

[crenca]

10 minutes ago, 4est said:

Not to pick on you in particular, but to me this statement is the gist of what the OP was getting at. I have an engineering background and would love to be purely objective. At present there are not measurements(or understanding of them) that will describe exactly how something will sound. Until such time, I will need to use both ob/subjective methods to determine the quality of playback I achieve, and whether I will do something about it. I, and likely many others, resent being described as irrational because we refuse to relinquish subjectivity until then. As Miska has pointed out, things can measure comparably but sound different.

 

Well stated.  However, I think you have made an error.  A rational and balanced explication of the real subjective/objective elements of audio is not the "gist" of what the OP was getting at.  

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 minute ago, KeenObserver said:

We have the never ending subjectivist/objectivist argument.

 

Going back to the beginning of reproduced sound, which group was most responsible for bringing us to the current state of affairs.

 

I can just imagine:

Bell: "Come here Watson, I need you".

Watson: Wow! That sounds like shit".

 

My understanding of that process is that Watson said "what?" quite a bit before that happened. 🙂

[The Computer Audiophile]

30 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Yet, even here the stakes are something and not nothing.  For all but oligarchs, the pricing of audiophilia is significant.  The hucksterism and "who cares" subjectivism makes for a poisoned divide.  

 

Also we must remember the war on Christmas...that's important 😋

 

This has zero to do with actual pricing and everything to do with your background and point of view. The pricing of audiophilia has never been lower. Go to the Schiit website and have a look. Go to Benchmark's site and see what kind of engineering one can get for his money. Oligarch's wouldn't be caught dead spending this little. Looking through a telescope at only the most expensive items in any category of consumer goods will lead you to your conclusion. This isn't a sound method from which to conclude anything.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Well stated.  However, I think you have made an error.  A rational and balanced explication of the real subjective/objective elements of audio is not the "gist" of what the OP was getting at.  

 

Based on your comments in this thread, I don't believe you have any idea what the OP was getting at. Please stop suggesting otherwise. 

 

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Based on your comments in this thread, I don't believe you have any idea what the OP was getting at.

It seems like a lot of people are misunderstanding the article. Perhaps the OP should have expressed himself better.

[mansr]

20 minutes ago, wgscott said:

1 hour ago, mansr said:

I'd say lying is making a statement contrary to what one believes to be true.

What if one believes something false to be true?

Then stating the opposite is still (morally) a lie, even though the statement itself is (factually) true.

 

20 minutes ago, wgscott said:

I think there has to be intent to mislead or deceive.

Sure, it could be sarcasm.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

It seems like a lot of people are misunderstanding the article. Perhaps the OP should have expressed himself better.

There is always room for that, but I wouldn't doubt some are purposely misunderstanding him and others have zero interest in understanding him. 

[mansr]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

There is always room for that, but I wouldn't doubt some are purposely misunderstanding him and others have zero interest in understanding him. 

If making a controversial point, it is all the more important to do so clearly.

[Samuel T Cogley]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Based on your comments in this thread, I don't believe you have any idea what the OP was getting at. Please stop suggesting otherwise.

 

Chris, I never made it past this little nugget (from the OP):

 

Quote

I believe these debates are about religion...

 

Couldn't one easily reach the conclusion that the OP, while perhaps forming a cogent complaint about incivility, doesn't seem to have the slightest idea what this eternal conflict is really all about?

 

Is the solution simply for those of us who point to the irrationality to STFU?  That seems to be what all the people who are upvoting the OP want.

[rando]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

It seems like a lot of people are misunderstanding the article. Perhaps the OP should have expressed himself better.

 

Perhaps the reader's social skills were implied.  

[Ralf11]

5 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Similar demographic to audiophiles. Maybe a bit older on average, age spans from early 20s to mid 80s. Average, without any real data to back this up, I'd say around 60. Predominantly male. World-wide.

 

more likely to own a tent, camper, RV, tripod, camera system...

[crenca]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This has zero to do with actual pricing and everything to do with your background and point of view. The pricing of audiophilia has never been lower. Go to the Schiit website and have a look

 

Since you bring up Schiit, Jason Stoddard (co founder/owner) disagrees with you.  He said this just yesterday:

 

"...Someone once wrote that we should decouple ourselves from "the big crazy," which I believe is a great phrase for all the magical-thinking stuff. The problem is that "the big crazy" has been extremely influential in the business (a reviewer actually used Vidar with $20,000 cables--not kidding). But perhaps it is time to start the decoupling. Because I'm really really tired of having to hold my tongue when I'm shown yet another fuse that costs more than a Magni, ethernet cables that cost more than an Yggdrasil, or magic box that connects to nothing but somehow is supposed to improve the sound....Sorry to continue the derail, but this is an excellent point: the big crazy is holding audio back.  As soon as you start talking about cables/power supplies/stones/quantum resonance machines (or, for that matter, $20K preamps, $50K amps, and $500K speakers), sane people check out. You're crazy. And they're gone...."

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/magni-3-and-magni-3-heresy-released.8604/page-7#post-282025

 

The inescapable, sky is blue, cold hard fact is that this subjectivism we have been discussing is a fundamental part of "the big crazy".

 

Yet the OP and to a certain extent yourself believe that "the big crazy" is "innocuous" (to use the OP's description) and not only that, the "the big crazy" is the very ground of audio (and its civil discussion) itself.  

[4est]

24 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Well stated.  However, I think you have made an error.  A rational and balanced explication of the real subjective/objective elements of audio is not the "gist" of what the OP was getting at.  

Respectfully, the OP has intimated that you do not seem to understand the gist of what he was attempting to convey. I was speaking to what I think he was trying to say. Perhaps I am off too? Regardless, it is my opinion that we would all get along together better if put more effort into how we as individuals communicate. It is not place to define anyone but myself. Labeling someone else(as irrational or most anything) is bound to cause problems. We were taught that in grade school.

[Norton]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Oligarch's wouldn't be caught dead spending this little

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, 4est said:

Respectfully, the OP has intimated that you do not seem to understand the gist of what he was attempting to convey. I was speaking to what I think he was trying to say. Perhaps I am off too? Regardless, it is my opinion that we would all get along together better if put more effort into how we as individuals communicate. It is not place to define anyone but myself. Labeling someone else(as irrational or most anything) is bound to cause problems. We were taught that in grade school.

 

And respectfully as well, this statement could be summarized as "just ignore irrationality and everyone will get along".

[crenca]

7 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Since you bring up Schiit, Jason Stoddard (co founder/owner) disagrees with you.  He said this just yesterday:

 

"...Someone once wrote that we should decouple ourselves from "the big crazy," which I believe is a great phrase for all the magical-thinking stuff. The problem is that "the big crazy" has been extremely influential in the business (a reviewer actually used Vidar with $20,000 cables--not kidding). But perhaps it is time to start the decoupling. Because I'm really really tired of having to hold my tongue when I'm shown yet another fuse that costs more than a Magni, ethernet cables that cost more than an Yggdrasil, or magic box that connects to nothing but somehow is supposed to improve the sound....Sorry to continue the derail, but this is an excellent point: the big crazy is holding audio back.  As soon as you start talking about cables/power supplies/stones/quantum resonance machines (or, for that matter, $20K preamps, $50K amps, and $500K speakers), sane people check out. You're crazy. And they're gone...."

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/magni-3-and-magni-3-heresy-released.8604/page-7#post-282025

 

The inescapable, sky is blue, cold hard fact is that this subjectivism we have been discussing is a fundamental part of "the big crazy".

 

Yet the OP and to a certain extent yourself believe that "the big crazy" is "innocuous" (to use the OP's description) and not only that, the "the big crazy" is the very ground of audio (and its civil discussion) itself.  

 

I should add that thread is about the "radical objectivism" of Amir and ASR, the use and abuse of measurements, etc.  It's a "both/and", etc.  At the risk of offending certain objectivists here, I agree with this, @4est, etc.  Still, the overwhelming status quo in audiophildom is not objectivism, but an off the rail "big crazy" subjectivism for all the known reasons...

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Chris, I never made it past this little nugget (from the OP):

 

Thanks for the admission. I always find it useful to continue reading an editorial, even when I find something reprehensible, especially if the time expenditure is little. No worries though. I can see how one would be turned off by the mention of religion. I'd prefer the word God be removed from US currency, but that's a "real" issue and it is used just to show my position on religion. I still enjoy reading opposing views and have even had a great conversation with the OP about religion at RMAF over breakfast one year.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Couldn't one easily reach the conclusion that the OP, while perhaps forming a cogent complaint about incivility, doesn't seem to have the slightest idea what this eternal conflict is really all about?

 

Is the solution simply for those of us who point to the irrationality to STFU?  That seems to be what all the people who are upvoting the OP want.

 

Given our incredibly wide variety of backgrounds, cultures, languages, etc... someone could, and likely has, reached that conclusion. I disagree, but that's OK. 

 

The solution isn't just to STFU, it's to be respectful. If someone believes Santa Claus dropped off a 10% distortion amp and that it's the highest fidelity available today, let them live with their belief. It isn't OK to follow a Muslim around and constantly tell them Muhammad isn't real every time they enter a masque. I say the same isn't OK to follow audiophiles around and say they are delusional ever time they say they are enjoying a new component you don't believe in. 

 

There's a time and place for everything.  

[crenca]

5 minutes ago, 4est said:

Respectfully, the OP has intimated that you do not seem to understand the gist of what he was attempting to convey. I was speaking to what I think he was trying to say. Perhaps I am off too? Regardless, it is my opinion that we would all get along together better if put more effort into how we as individuals communicate. It is not place to define anyone but myself. Labeling someone else(as irrational or most anything) is bound to cause problems. We were taught that in grade school.

 

As I said initially, the OP's thought is confused and confusing.  That said, he clarified his essential "radical subjective" gounding when he affirmed that it and only it is "innocuous" and the ground of civility in audio, so I don't know what more effort needs to be put in to see that there is a fundamental disagreement here.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If someone believes Santa Claus...

 

So, this forum is not the place to disabuse someone of the belief that Santa Claus actually exists?

[Ralf11]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

 I can see how one would be turned off by the mention of religion.  

 

That isn't the issue.  The real issue is false equivalence - that science is somehow another type of religion.

 

It isn't.

[Albrecht]

45 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

 

Someone pissed in your Cheerios, hunh?

is that your Keen Observation?

I think it pales in comparison to the 6 or 7 troll posters whoe are constantly venting their envy, and rage, against high performance audio manufacturers and the folks who are interested in improving the listening experience through better performing playback gear. Or otherwise, - whining on the internet....

 

"hunh?"

Is that darling? sweetie? or huh?

 

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It isn't OK to follow a Muslim around and constantly tell them Muhammad isn't real every time they enter a masque.

What a crazy thing to do. There's ample evidence that Muhammad was a very real person.

[Samuel T Cogley]

2 minutes ago, Albrecht said:

I think it pales in comparison to the 6 or 7 troll posters whoe are constantly venting their envy, and rage, against high performance audio manufacturers...

 

I've been waiting for the "skeptics are envious peasants" trope to rear its ugly head, and there it is.

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

Since you bring up Schiit, Jason Stoddard (co founder/owner) disagrees with you.  He said this just yesterday:

 

"...Someone once wrote that we should decouple ourselves from "the big crazy," which I believe is a great phrase for all the magical-thinking stuff. The problem is that "the big crazy" has been extremely influential in the business (a reviewer actually used Vidar with $20,000 cables--not kidding). But perhaps it is time to start the decoupling. Because I'm really really tired of having to hold my tongue when I'm shown yet another fuse that costs more than a Magni, ethernet cables that cost more than an Yggdrasil, or magic box that connects to nothing but somehow is supposed to improve the sound....Sorry to continue the derail, but this is an excellent point: the big crazy is holding audio back.  As soon as you start talking about cables/power supplies/stones/quantum resonance machines (or, for that matter, $20K preamps, $50K amps, and $500K speakers), sane people check out. You're crazy. And they're gone...."

 

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/magni-3-and-magni-3-heresy-released.8604/page-7#post-282025

 

The inescapable, sky is blue, cold hard fact is that this subjectivism we have been discussing is a fundamental part of "the big crazy".

 

Yet the OP and to a certain extent yourself believe that "the big crazy" is "innocuous" (to use the OP's description) and not only that, the "the big crazy" is the very ground of audio (and its civil discussion) itself.  

I like Jason but disagree with him. 

 

Can anyone find a real world example where a consumer really wanted to purchase a stereo or pair of headphones, but was so turned off by magic stones that they stopped their pursuit and elected to not listen to music? I think this is the easy scapegoat for people. Only those of us who are deep into HiFi know about magic stones and the like.

 

With respect to price, I don't decide to stop driving because Rolls Royce released the $13,000,000 Sweptail. If I want a car, I find one I can afford. If someone decides to stop driving, I think they have larger issues that auto manufacturers best not try to solve with lower prices. As a rational person, I look at the Sweptail and think it's a feat of engineering and luxury that I wish I could afford, then I head to the Subaru dealer and get a car loan for the Impreza I can afford. 

 

I'm all about choice. Right now we have options from an Apple dongle to a full digital stack at over $100,000. What a time we are living in. 

 

Please stop telling me what I believe. It's getting old. 

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I've been waiting for the "skeptics are envious peasants" trope to rear its ugly head, and there it is.

 

He even worked in the "folks who disagree with me are trolls" argument.