KeenObserver Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 One of the problems with running a forum is that it is no longer just like minded individuals trading information. There are people and machines whose job it is to influence internet users. They are paid, or are programmed, to promote products or ideas that they have no real belief in. They are simply following a script. There are giant corporations now that are paid huge amounts to influence people. These are who you may be arguing with. It is no longer a matter of having a difference of opinion with someone. It is a matter of someone wanting to sell you a product or an idea. It is no longer friendly conversation, it is business, and the direction can get heated. Ralf11 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, firedog said: But do you thing that's what's going on here? It doesn't appear to me that the arguments here have much to do with the commercial interests of the posters. Most are just hobbyists having a discussion. How many times did the MQA shills post the same inane and untrue bs talking points over and over? tmtomh 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 9, 2019 Share Posted December 9, 2019 Measurements are critical, but in the end. we listen to music. The problem is that a computer can post a million posts that say: "The dogshit speakers are the best speakers I have ever heard". gstew 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 10, 2019 15 minutes ago, ARQuint said: It's not supposed to be a backhanded compliment - it's meant to be a regular, standard-issue compliment. It's admirable when you call out ad hominem attacks for what they are. They are not, it seems to me, just an assault on someone's professional worth but an attempt to inflame and provoke. Lavorgna? He's a pretty excitable guy, but Lee S? He's really a gentle and thoughtful person who tried to engage in a serious discussion about the merits of you-know-what, and it took a lot of effort on the part of a dedicated few to get him unhinged enough to emit a bad word. If you'd given the sort of dressing-down to several of the worst bullies at the time that you gave to Plissken here, maybe there could be more discussions that stay useful for longer on any number of controversial subjects. As there are, by the way, on plenty of AS threads. So, by all means, keep up what Cogley and crenca would refer to as "finger-wagging." It's what separates us from the the beasts of the forest. Andy Wow! Is Lee your boss now? esldude, opus101 and k-man 3 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2019 4 hours ago, ARQuint said: Interesting, Mr. Cogley, as I haven't spent much time on the Hoffman forum. I feel, though, that your information may support my impression. You report that LS "shilled" for AQ, Black Cat, and Shunyata over at Hoffman. Are you saying that Lee had some sort of secret arrangement/agreement with all of those manufacturers to serve as an online "influencer" for their products? The way it's been continually suggested, with no hard evidence, that he's somehow on the MQA payroll? That he's a professional "shill" with a sizable portfolio of clients? Given the length of the list of products he's allegedly selling his soul for, isn't it (a lot) more likely that these are things he's simply genuinely enthusiastic about? Look. I'm friendly with Lee, having chatted with him at shows for a few years but I don't know what happens in the deeper recesses of his heart and mind—and, of course, neither do you. I feel that you (and Indierock and a few others) have created a narrative that suits your contempt for his position on MQA. What joelha is saying here is that such accusations without real evidence amount to ad hominem and adversely impact the tone and utility of a potentially substantive discussion. Lee's detractors maintain that he just kept repeating MQA, Inc doggerel. The case could be made that many of the most aggressive (and often anonymous) Vaporware participants spent a awful lot of time citing Archimago's conclusions, using the same language over and over. This is, of course, the nature of online discourse, as plenty of people have pointed out. The need to get the last word in is why Vaporware is mind-numbingly redundant. All that seems to invigorate it periodically is the occasional opportunity for new insults. It'll reach 1000 pages, I'm sure, unless the narcissist (Hi, Steve!) who started it chooses to shut it down. Which strikes me as unlikely. Andy Archimago carefully researched using scientifically valid methodologies. He came up with scientifically valid answers. LS continued spewing MQA talking points, some of which MQA themselves have walked away from. Members of this forum answered LS's continuous spewing of MQA talking points with scientifically valid counter points. In your mind members of this forum should have let LS spew his MQA BS unanswered. You're on the internet. You're not writing on a highly controlled magazine in which you have to follow the editorial direction. I understand your current position in regards to LS, but you are not doing your reputation as a "journalist" any good. esldude, firedog, Rt66indierock and 4 others 5 2 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, Albrecht said: ""Archimago carefully researched using scientifically valid methodologies. " Not true. Archimago practices pseudoscience wherein he derives a conclusion, then sets out to prove that conclusion in advance by limiting the testing, and controlling the outcomes. Further, - he uses junk-ass test subjects and measuring equipment that is insufficient to to create a wide sampling of data that would refute, or (better) support those conclusions. You cannot use purely objective, (especially cursory measurements), data on only one piece of equipment in a system to make a subjective PREDICTION on how a recording might sound. "not doing your reputation as a "journalist" any good." Who is a journalist? And what is the definition of a "journalist?" I am questioning whether or not you understand that no one who writes for Audiophile Magazines or writes reviews or product announcements for any type of music playback equipment is a "journalist:" but an audio "enthusiast." Think music or film reviewer. Are you saying that Archimago's conclusions are not valid? Seems like a number of people came to the same conclusions. What shall we call people who write for audiophile magazines? Salesmen? Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2019 40 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: You're no lawyer and this is no court of law, but suggesting you know Lee was lying is a stretch. Perhaps we cannot know that Lee was lying. We can only assume that Lee did not know what he was talking about. And, we can put value in what Lee says accordingly! Teresa and Don Hills 1 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 13 minutes ago, Albrecht said: "Are you saying that Archimago's conclusions are not valid?" Absolutely, 100%. "What shall we call people who write for audiophile magazines?" Audio enthusiasts and Audio reviewers. "Salesmen?" not funny Someone pissed in your Cheerios, hunh? Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 We have the never ending subjectivist/objectivist argument. Going back to the beginning of reproduced sound, which group was most responsible for bringing us to the current state of affairs. I can just imagine: Bell: "Come here Watson, I need you". Watson: Wow! That sounds like shit". Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 10 minutes ago, Albrecht said: is that your Keen Observation? I think it pales in comparison to the 6 or 7 troll posters whoe are constantly venting their envy, and rage, against high performance audio manufacturers and the folks who are interested in improving the listening experience through better performing playback gear. Or otherwise, - whining on the internet.... "hunh?" Is that darling? sweetie? or huh? My guess is that something that Archimago posted cast shade on a product that you have a vested interest in. Did you refute the claims on a scientific basis, or did you attempt to shoot the messenger? crenca 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, ARQuint said: "...pro-MQA gaslighting?" Really?? Now that's a great example of inventing a narrative to suit one's purposes. My sole interest in MQA for more than two years now has been the bad online behavior it's associated with. I've written a couple of editorials about that subject and you yourself have accused me of "finger-wagging". I have very little, if any to saything about the technology itself (for example, I mentioned that one of the three SACD players I reviewed in the December issue was MQA-capable and left it at that.) I don't own a DAC that decodes MQA and I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it. I've never met Bob Stuart or any of the other MQA principals. As far as "converting anyone" to my cause, I think that a wonderful thing about Joel Alperson's editorial is that it has brought people out of the woodwork who are similarly weary of the uncivil tone of so much discourse in enthusiast communities, specifically ours. No converting is required—plenty of AS forum members are already believers, when it comes to addressing rude and aggressive online behavior. Andy I appreciate your quest for civility. I appreciated it when you attempted (civilly) to convince Chris that I was someone else that had previously been banned. I appreciate the fact that you civilly tried to convince Chris to ban me. You were very civil about it. Speaking to Chris like he was a child that needed guidance. That is a very civil way to deal with someone that disagrees with you and your magazines take on a subject. Fortunately for me, Chris very civilly disagreed with you. Samuel T Cogley, Ralf11 and askat1988 2 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 11, 2019 43 minutes ago, ARQuint said: "...pro-MQA gaslighting?" Really?? Now that's a great example of inventing a narrative to suit one's purposes. My sole interest in MQA for more than two years now has been the bad online behavior it's associated with. I've written a couple of editorials about that subject and you yourself have accused me of "finger-wagging". I have very little, if any to saything about the technology itself (for example, I mentioned that one of the three SACD players I reviewed in the December issue was MQA-capable and left it at that.) I don't own a DAC that decodes MQA and I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it. I've never met Bob Stuart or any of the other MQA principals. As far as "converting anyone" to my cause, I think that a wonderful thing about Joel Alperson's editorial is that it has brought people out of the woodwork who are similarly weary of the uncivil tone of so much discourse in enthusiast communities, specifically ours. No converting is required—plenty of AS forum members are already believers, when it comes to addressing rude and aggressive online behavior. Andy Mr Quint Seems like you consider those that agree with you to be civil. Seems like you consider those that disagree with you to be uncivil. askat1988, Ralf11 and crenca 3 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 53 minutes ago, ARQuint said: And FD, I feel that you and a few others just don't understand what's at stake here. It seems so obvious to me. For the umpteenth time, my concern isn't who is right or wrong on the MQA question, but rather, the way we talk to each other about it. I assure you: I read every word of Archimago's analysis and was impressed; I'm no happier to see his abilities called into question than the integrity and competence of those in the pro-MQA camp—for example, people like my dear friend Peter McGrath. I'd been reading Audiophile Style without posting—"lurking"—for months before Joel's editorial was published two days ago. I'm being genuine when I say that I'm tremendously impressed with Chris's decision to present it as he did, in a way that acknowledged the vital importance of the issue of civility. There's been an explosive response, mostly from two constituencies. The first is a large group of members that's as concerned as the OP about the manner in which a vocal minority attack those with different opinions than their own. The second are representatives of that minority who recognize themselves in Joel's essay and don't like the characterization. I can detect, from some of them, annoyance and even frank anger with The Computer Audiophile for publishing the editorial, viewing it as a kind a slap in the face. I suppose it is. But it's a subject that needs addressing and that outpouring of reaction—more than 500 postings in two days!—is very telling. I'll try returning to lurking status and observe what I hope will be the growth of a corrective force. Andrew Quint Senior Writer The Absolute Sound Yes indeed. The world would be so much more civilized if everyone just agreed with you. You are, after all, the Senior Writer for The Absolute Sound. The Computer Audiophile and Ralf11 1 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I believe you're hurting your own cause with little quips like this. At no point did he say anything like that and in fact said the opposite. I don't know if I have a cause other than hoping the MQA scam is never implemented. There may indeed be uncivil people here, but I take offense to Mr Quints passive-aggressive lumping of everyone who disagrees with him as being uncivil. It is labeling. Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
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