Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

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3 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

 

How many times did the MQA shills post the same inane and untrue bs talking points over and over?

 

See... perfect example of what the OP is about.

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The point is simple: I should be able to post in Internet without hell breaking loose that "A" sounds better to me than "B", even if I cannot support this "claim" with measurements and ABX tests. If nobody can share their (albeit totally subjective) opinion on something, for fear of being attacked, then this becomes a form of self-censure. Not a positive thing IMO

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Oh boy... the Force (read: ASR lieutenants) is very strong in this one.

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1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

... and away we go

Inevitable 

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9 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I don't like pointing fingers, but there's this recent thread about a new ethernet switch that a gentleman involved in this very thread decided to join to try to push a subjectivist point of view ...on a decidedly objectivist-minded forum. It wasn't a good showing for him. The whole thing got very nasty.

 

 

So all objectivists are angry, bitter, evil people because one of them put something you don't like in his signature?

 

Hmmmm.... can you post screenshots of what I exactly posted there, and how? 

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“You will never reach your destination if you stop and throw stones at every dog that barks.”
― Winston S. Churchill

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46 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Then why are they posting on the internet?

‘Because they are out there to get you 🙄

 

Thank God we have you and some other “slayers of snake oil” and “the ABX Audiophile” to save the humanity from this genocide 🙄
 

You even have a banner now 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

How about some CIVILITY?

 

That's what I tell to those guys who throw this banner on my face all the time. But they don't listen

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I have no issue with the "objectivists" posting about audio, as long as it is based on their own, actual experience, of owning and using (or measuring) the gear under review.

 

My issue is with the usual types / names in here never actually posting anything about any piece of gear, sharing their experiences, discussing features and helping people who ask, evaluate a purchase. It seems like the only time these guys post is to either bash something, or getting into useless theoretical arguments. So what's the value they add to any online audiophile forum other than denounce "snake oil"?

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Does this only apply to  "objectivists" as you define it - or to everyone???

 

I am thinking of one non-objective individual in particular, who frequently disrupts threads with his angry posts, yet never comments on his own actual experience of the gear under discussion.  He also has a hearing loss.

‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music.

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Just now, Ralf11 said:

who here doesn’t even own an audio system, or doesn’t even listen to music ???

‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count

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4 minutes ago, mansr said:

What is the minimum price that counts?

who said anything about price?

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6 minutes ago, mansr said:

Well, what criteria decide what counts? Percentage silver in cables? Number of "quantum" in names of components? What?

‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?

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1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

I would describe the my system this way:

 

 

‘I thought so. You proved my point. 
 

Are you and The Troll the same person? I thought I was replying to them

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1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

The above is what you said, not the revisionist post later.

 

I would like to know if there is such a person on here.  Or Not.

As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right?

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Just now, crenca said:

 

I was jesting with you.  If your sincerely interested:

 

I am currently an all HP guy, though in my office I do have KEF Q350's powered by a Parasound amp that I tell my wife are "computer speakers", but the room nodes of my office make them too gimped for any critical listening.

 

My main HP system currently (changes as I buy and sell) is iFi IDAC2/Airist R2R/Schiit Gungnir MB "A2 {second revision}" >>> Schiit Saga >>> Schiit Jot/Eddie Current BW2 >>> ZMF Eikon/ZMF Verite/Focal Clear/Focal Elegia/Hifiman XX (these suck)/Sennheiser HD650

 

All fed by Roon (mostly), sometimes HQPlayer and/or JRiver with various VST DSP plugins.  For magic pixie dust on my PC source, I stick with just Lasso and various solutions from Synergistic Research...

Thanks for sharing. Now we are talking. I used to be big on Headphones. Not anymore. From your current gear you have, I used to own the Airist headphones amp and ZMF Eikon. Lots of other HP stuff I used to own, including Senn HD800, Focal Utopia, Headamp GS-X MK2, Holo Spring KTE, Schiit Mjolnir, and more. Big Roon fan, and lifetime sub on year three. For what’s worth I am a fan of R2R DAC technology too. Nothing scientific, purely subjective, the type of sound I like.
 

My kids grew up, so I am back into speakers. Does not mean I will never go back into HP. Cheers!

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1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

Yep, I want to own the Utopia, but the delta between it and the Clear is not enough to justify the price, though street prices this year fell quite a bit so...

 

As much as I like the Eikon's tonality/timbre, the speed/detail is lacking, but the Verite (Closed in my case) brings Focal speed/detail to that warm ZMF house sound, which itself is polarizing.  With kids, I am chasing the closed back dragon.  "Face tweeters" like the HD800 bother me, though I get why folks who mostly listen to classical are drawn to this sound.  

‘My HD800 were SDR modified (superDupont Resonator). They were my go-to headphones until I got Utopia. Street price on Utopia is way lower than MSRP. I remember I paid something like $2,500 or $2,600 all in a few years ago, brand new.

 

A local guy I know is friendly with Zach at ZMF, so I was familiar with his cans. Good stuff for sure 

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1 minute ago, tmtomh said:

 

I'm sorry, but that's never, ever going to happen here. 

 

The reason is that the entire point of objectivism is that individual experience owning and listening to gear is not, by itself, a reliable measure or indicator of anything except, well, that individual's experience. Experience is valuable and essential, but it is limited when it comes to communicating sonic characteristics and performance facts that are likely to be repeatable by others.

 

As for limiting posts about measurements to gear that the individual has measured themselves, that is equally nonsensical in the context of what objectivism is about: repeatability of measurement is what makes measurement meaningful. Who does the measurement is irrelevant - and by definition one's own measurements are not more important or valid than anyone else's. Since not everyone has the time, money, and expertise necessary to own and properly operate good-quality testing equipment, we necessarily rely on those who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data.

 

In sum, what your comment here does is say that objectivist commentary is fine with you - as long as it's limited in such a way as to turn it into subjectivist commentary. There's nothing open-minded about that. So if that's your position, then I would suggest you kindly take a seat in this discussion.

I am so sorry, but your reply to me does not make sense.

 

Are you stating that current owners of a piece of equipment don’t need to share their experience with what they own simply because their experience with said gear may not be repeatable by others?

 

Further, are you saying the only opinion that counts is that of His Majesty, “who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data”?

 

With outmost respects, this is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. Utterly nonsense 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think you may have misunderstood what @tmtomh’s point was. Hopefully he can follow up. 

‘I surely hope you are right, although I doubt it. What is your understanding of what he said? 

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2 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Owners of a piece of equipment don't need to share their experiences - but they certainly can do so

Then what would be the point in discussing with other people in a hobby forum like this? This is definitely not a need, like nutrition, or thirst. It’s a hobby. We are here to discuss with each other about the hobby. This is not a life or death situation.

 

5 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Rather, I am saying that it does not make sense to claim - as you did - that people should only post comments here about measurements if they made those measurements themselves.

‘You really took my measurement comment in the most serious context. All I was saying is that the opinion of an objectivist, or of anyone for that matter, is totally acceptable by me if that person has actual personal experience with something. Not simply because he read some measurements that His Majesty posted in the Internets. Does it make sense? Or are you really implying that if someone who has those special instruments, and measures this stuff, is the absolute authority in all audio, and 100% of the population should buy what he determined to have the most superior measurements?

 

11 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

as for the fact that you find my prior post ridiculous, if I were you I wouldn't be so sure that's a commentary on the content of my post.

‘Sorry, I don’t get it. My comprehension skills are lacking with this one

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Based on your first post @tmtomh , who is right and wrong in the following situation?

 

Person A owns The Amp. She likes it a lot, and goes online in a forum sharing her experience with this Amp. She has owned many amps over the past 25 years, and is an avid hobbyist 

 

Person B does not own this Amp, and never lead her eyes on it. She does not even own an audio system. However, she read the measurements of this Amp that His Majesty posted in his website. Graphs and all. Person B goes to the same forum, and tells person A that she is being scammed, and the Amp is rubbish, measures pretty bad, and sounds terrible 

 

Was the person A wrong to share her experience with her fellow hobbyists? Or was Person B wrong to spoil her party? 

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This reminds me of my friend who was enjoying his Border Patrol DAC for months. He kept telling me this is the best DAC he had ever owned. Until Stereophile posted those measurements, at which point my friend decided he did not like the DAC anymore, and sold it

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4 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

But it's rather rich that you are calling out "objectivists" for rudely mocking and dismissing others when you seem to have an irresistible compulsion to call someone who does measurements "His Majesty" over and over again and refer to "graphs and all" in a sarcastic, dismissive manner that suggests you cannot tolerate or respect those who find value in measurement

‘I wrote nothing to suggest such a harsh conclusion you seem to have arrived at me. I was not rude, I was not mocking anyone, and I don’t have any “irresistible compulsion” on anyone. I don’t have sarcastic, dismissive manners. I simply laid out what I have seen happening in audio forums over and over again. To be clear, I am not accusing you on doing this. Don’t get tasty

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1 minute ago, tmtomh said:

 

First off, I do understand you're not accusing me of that bad behavior (and I appreciate you saying so).

 

I am not trying to be harsh towards you, and I hope we can avoid getting sidetracked on issues of rhetoric and tone - but I have to say that calling a certain person with a measurement-based web site "His Majesty" over and over again is indeed sarcastic and dismissive.

‘It’s a figure of speech. Personification of Authority. In the context of the superior entity with special skills and possession of superior, precision measuring tools. Nobody in particular. Why do you feel so strongly about my use of “Majesty” in this context?

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Just now, mourip said:

The only cure is to listen to more music and stop reading forums.

 

You are absolutely right. Especially when said forums are flooded with...