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I had a quick look at the article, saw your crucify yourself choice of room target curve and lost any interest in reading whatever you might say. I caught the word analog though, guess that anything taming your crucify yourself room target curve will be a relief.

 


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I have no idea what you just said. 

 

 

Really? For a better understanding just ask Mitch Barnett to provide u with corrections files following the target curve chosen by Michael Lowe (cf https://accuratesound.ca/testimonials ). You have obviously chosen to target an almost flat response curve. Unless you're listening only to records mastered on monitors tuned to that very unnatural response curve you are boosting highs way above the intention of artists/producers/engineers that would have done nothing to tune their monitors (then they had natural downward slope at Listening Position) or of artists/producers/engineers following Industry standards operational room response curves (cf https://accuratesound.ca/standards)

 

Maybe you assume that you do a better reviewing job by inflicting yourself very unnatural listening conditions but I personally wish and avocate that records be mastered with Industry standards operational room response curves and so that gears should be judged and reviewed accordingly, not in artificial highs stressing, unnatural conditions that necessarily call for unwanted tricks to best perform in said artificial conditions such as the one you promote


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Measurements at 6 Finnish concert halls


The measurements at 6 Finnish concert hall were the measurements of direct and indirect sound. What you want is measurement at your listening position to be like that after applying whatever position, room treatments, DSP, EQ , convolution filter and etc etc. 

 

But that doesn’t mean all your albums would sound good. Concert hall slopes are best for classical. 

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10 minutes ago, STC said:


The measurements at 6 Finnish concert hall were the measurements of direct and indirect sound. What you want is measurement at your listening position to be like that after applying whatever position, room treatments, DSP, EQ , convolution filter and etc etc. 

 

But that doesn’t mean all your albums would sound good. Concert hall slopes are best for classical. 

Good points. 
 

Makes me wonder what slope should be used for recordings that never existed in real space. 


Founder of Audiophile Style

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I’ve been looking at this subject quite a bit this morning and the “discussion” has helped me understand a bit more about the topic. 
 

I definitely had some wrong assumptions. Fortunately Mitch has been extremely helpful in designing the convolution filter and guiding me over the last couple months. Now I see why he had me listen to several slopes using many of the standards (settling on EBU 3276).


 

 


Founder of Audiophile Style

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50 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Good points. 
 

Makes me wonder what slope should be used for recordings that never existed in real space. 

 

You have to try all of them. I do not use any kind of DSP to alter the original sound. The original sound as in the recording still comes out from the speakers untouched with any process. The slope is shaped by the room ambiance using the 30 speakers. There too the theoretical Harman curve and reality is very different.  Anyway, here after my input will be not useful for your purpose. I just hope you have a better understanding what the Harman curve is all about because many literally think that's how the response of the speakers should be.

 

Sorry if this is OT.

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1 hour ago, STC said:

 

You have to try all of them. I do not use any kind of DSP to alter the original sound.

 

I though that you were using some kind DSP processing software to create 3D spatial effects.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’ve been looking at this subject quite a bit this morning and the “discussion” has helped me understand a bit more about the topic. 
 

I definitely had some wrong assumptions. 


 

 

Good. I then accept your rewriting of history and pseudo creation of the topic by myself. It's perfectly covered by Mitch (see infra)

 

"A flat in-room target response is clearly not the optimal target curve for room equalization. The preferred room corrections have a target response that has a smooth downward slope with increasing frequency. This tells us that listeners prefer a certain amount of natural room gain. Removing the rom gain, makes the reproduced music sound unnatural, and too thin, according to these listeners. This also makes perfect sense since the recording was likely mixed in room where the room gain was also not removed; therefore, to remove it from the consumers' listening room would destroy spectral balance of the music as intended by the artist."

 

Sean Olive, The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/11/subjective-and-objective-evaluation-of.html

 

In bold is the point I wanted to make


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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@The Computer Audiophile  Thanks for including your in-room response and making this a thread.  There are now a few custom prepared room correction / convolution methods available.  Maybe comparing them could be your next in-depth article?

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Using Dirac on Minidsp SHD Studio I decided I like the response of my speakers except for the boomy bass region. So I made the target curve follow the original curve. Smoothed it a bit and only really reducing the peak of the bass. The resulting target curve still has a downward slope but isn't straight. I like this better than the EBU and Harman curves I tried. 

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gotta peel Le Concombre first


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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@jaaptina

 

I think that your approach is quite reasonable and a sort of "BBC dip" is preferred by many,

I'm not sure though that the following are as good an idea, personally I'd smoothen them unless you incur into clipping:

Capture1.JPG.7e66bde488ed41d9a3faa9af955f35ee.JPG


Warning: My posts may be biased even if in good faith, I work for Dirac Research :-)

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On 12/4/2019 at 8:34 PM, bobflood said:

Don't feel bad. He is the same way elsewhere.

are we surfing the same spots?


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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I now have 5 Correction FIR Sets based on 5 Target curves

 

I hâve created an Excel Chart to map right usage of each based on label decade etc

 

I ll share and will readily receive too

 

Targets are

 

-1 dB/octave that I probably won t use for it s just a base for the more advanced 

RR1 by Olive/Toole advocated by Harman

B & K to which I bet a good deal of albums have been eQed

Bob Katz to which at least his stuff has probably been eQed too, including Chesky tests

JBL Synthesis. As someone puts there https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/1014060-room-curve-after-room-calibration-2.html #I've been listening to many commercial recordings and it sounds more true what I think the producer intended out of all the curve discussed previously. My mixing translates better too. #

Interestingly enough, it s the best fit to the smoothed L + R average of my in room system s natural response and that s a factor per se I think. Taking into consideration in room system s natural response, Bob Katz s seems a good compromise for movies while applying movie industry standard (X curve) would force me to boost above 1 K, bad idea I think

 

SMOOTHED AVERAGED L + R TARGET SYNTHESIS.jpg

SETTING OPTIONS.xlsx Harman Curve.txt


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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Am I just taking notes for myself here, on IMO the most rewarding and effective usage of computers in audiophilia?

 

First impressions notes about comparisons then :

 

Dropped the 1 dB/octave for it s rather a metaphor than an actual target in Harman s literature

 

Dropped the JBL Synthesis but for Movies. Even on Bruce Botnick (advertised to use JBL for mastering) 's gorgeous Doors DVDAs, I can t convince myself it beats RR1: clearer thinner vocals less carnal with Synthesis. I believe it's intended for films not for music and is a clever round about X curve. I rather look at it as a 2 + dB 400 hz center several octaves dipped RR1 than as a LF bumped target. While RR1 is a LF bumped B & K.

 

Won't bother with the Katz, except if the album, ie Chesky s, is BK mastered. I understand the strategy in the mastering room though : if one's non eQued non treated room follows a natural downward slope, mastering following Katz's will translate with more bass less treble and will generally be perceived as warmer/ more pleasant. 

However, latest extended research for the Cinema industry tends to prove that the X curve is a myth and good sounding theatres believed to implement it have proved to modern properly measure with a LF rise. Thus all the standards resembling it more or less, even when room size is taken into account for the HF downward slope and inflexion point are wrong, IMO. And even toxic for it requires very unnatural eQ to flatten the LF.

But standards are standards.

 

I thus keep B & K 1974 in my quiver. Seems to fit quite a lot of masterings. Especially europeans, tbc with more samples...

 

RR1 is my default. If I'm bothered with excess LF I switch to B & K. I would really have to suffer from a lack around 1K Hz to start wonder if Katz's was the mastering target.

 

So life made simple : RR1 but if... So don't expect the xls mapping chart, unless someone is really willing to share such a mapping of Target Curves per mastering...

 

Personally, I would have started to wonder if my speakers or Speakers/Room fit is kosher if i had been to find that neither of the B & K or RR1 standard was the one to go.

 

Curves below are actual convolved measurements done PN/RTA/MMMethod of Up to Down (as read in LF region )   Synthesis, RR1, B & K, Bob Katz. L + R are averaged for clarity and were judged close enough to call it a day (well, took me more than a day...)

 

 

 

Targets final.jpg

clavinstGd.thumb.jpg.4e2b0cb4d9bb75ef04011457f41b919e.jpg


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Most likely yes because of your abrasive tone when talking to others. 

 

And yet the sentence "Personally, I would have started to wonder if my speakers or Speakers/Room fit is kosher if i had been to find that neither of the B & K or RR1 standard was the one to go." has been edited to be as mild as possible.

I have redesigned filters and questioned my comfort/certitudes ; have you?


 

HQP Embedded  (REW + RePhase created convolution filters for correcting frequency and time domains for the actual results presented below/IIR/Wide/overlap-ADD/ [email protected], mqa lp @ above Frequency Rates/DSD5EC) on a cooled mid 2012 15" rMacBP > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet> Airport TC > Cat 6 UTP Ethernet > NAA (Miska's image on UP NUC)> 2.0 certified Supra USB > Green Regen > TEAC UD 501> (balanced output) >Cardas Golden Cross> JRRG all balanced pre> Cabasse 4 ways 8 amps active system played at realistic SPL (key factor IMO). MCH files (matrixed to Stereo) on an attached HDD, the rest on a G-Tech HDD attached to the AirPort and WIFI accessed, as Qobuz, via Audirvana fronting HQPlayer Embedded.

 

 

 

Proofing B&K C @ -9 copie-Modifier-2.jpg

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On 1/8/2020 at 11:38 AM, Le Concombre Masqué said:

Curves below are actual convolved measurements done PN/RTA/MMMethod of Up to Down (as read in LF region )   : Synthesis, RR1, B & K, Bob Katz. L + R are averaged for clarity and were judged close enough to call it a day (well, took me more than a day...)

 

Targets final.jpg

 

Hi, what color belongs to what measurement (resp. Synthesis, RR1, B & K, Bob Katz)? Thx! 

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For the time being, I've settled on a curve that has a 2db bump at 20hz and is flat to 1khz and then ends at -10db down at 20khz in my room which has zero physical treatments and is quite large and open. This seems to work pretty well so far but at some point I may reduce the correction a touch to let the main speakers return a little more of their natural sound which is a bit more realistic sounding than the current curve with room correction in place. All in all, I like the corrected room much better as a whole but some may find it on the duller side.

 

Target curve shown in Red via Audiolense...Actual measured in room response shown via multi colored REQW curve.

 

 

48441977991_4f1e240d83_o.png

48449136797_22cb05a78d_o.png

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