Popular Post Allan F Posted December 2, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 2, 2019 5 hours ago, Jud said: But better mastering definitely matters. Still haven't found a digital version that can match my 50 year old LP of Tommy for goose bumps, and that just shouldn't be the case. Same with Steely Dan's Gaucho. At RMAF, I have heard a number of vinyl versions of older recordings sound considerably better than their digital versions played on the same high end systems. Teresa and STC 1 1 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 To throw the cat amongst the pigeons, a highlight was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Marketplace . Look at the cover, oh dear, a Sony digital recorder was used - in 1981 ... ummm, the sense of liveness, etc, was about as good as it gets - the technicians must have messed up something, for the terrible digital of that time to have "worked", 😉 Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 5 hours ago, PeterSt said: So the issue is: the best original it is way too dynamic. Hi Peter Yes. However, it can sound great on a top notch system in a quiet room, but it is also part of the reason why many prefer slightly compressed versions. Regards Alex John Dyson 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post John Dyson Posted December 2, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, sandyk said: Hi Peter Yes. However, it can sound great on a top notch system in a quiet room, but it is also part of the reason why many prefer slightly compressed versions. Regards Alex The tie-braaker on wanting a mildly compressed version for convenience vs. a full dynamic range version is that reasonably sound quality dynamic range compression is generally easier than expansion. So, IMO (in an ideal world) it is best to distribute a full dynamic range version, and then consumer equipment should have a well designed, but simple compressor that tightens up dynamic range to a limited extent. It shouldn't require a lot of compression except for maybe automobiles where the ambient dynamic range is so small. A slight 1.2:1 or maybe as much as 1.4:1 dynamic range compression should be all that is needed on good equipment. Another trick is for the 'compressor' not to act on signals above about -6dB -- so the higher order dynamics aren't as badly disturbed, but the lower levels can be 'brought up' a little. For lower end equipment, the quality might withstand a limited gain range 2:1 compressor when really needed. Compressors are not hard to do, even good ones. Expanders (unless the material was already compressed in a controlled way) can be really problematical. I don't know why -- but expansion surging bothers me MUCH more than most compression effects. Again -- this comment above would be 'in an ideal world', but we don't live there :-). John Teresa and sandyk 2 Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I believe whenever we discuss a topic like this, there should be a basic set of facts from which to proceed. 1. Formats can't be compared in a vacuum. All formats can sound as good as they sound bad. 2. "Good" has different meanings for everyone. 3. "Better" doesn't really mean much. 4. Less distortion, better specifications, etc... have meaning. Yes. 2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: With this in mind, I think the discussion should be phrased in terms of "how or why is vinyl still relevant, given digital's superiority based on specs?" Because sometimes, and in the past this was almost always the case, it is easier to get the 'tune' of the TT rig to a point where the distortions that matter to the listening brain are sufficiently reduced. The mind doesn't care about spec's; it reacts to an overall, 'summing up' of what it hears - and if enough boxes are ticked, then the vinyl setup will get the nod. To me, vinyl in fine order "sounds the same" as CD - Led Zeppelin I yesterday, on an ordinary pressing, delivered very close to the full emotional grunt of my CD copy - the information is always there, locked in the grooves. Link to comment
sandyk Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 30 minutes ago, Allan F said: At RMAF, I have heard a number of vinyl versions of older recordings sound considerably better than their digital versions played on the same high end systems. Hi Allan As many others have already noted , a " needle drop" digital copy of a Vinyl recording can sound virtually identical to the original Vinyl recording, so it is clearly a case of poor CD Mastering techniques. Kind Regards Alex John Dyson 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post Allan F Posted December 2, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 2, 2019 9 minutes ago, sandyk said: Hi Allan As many others have already noted , a " needle drop" digital copy of a Vinyl recording can sound virtually identical to the original Vinyl recording, so it is clearly a case of poor CD Mastering techniques. Kind Regards Alex That was precisely the point of my reply to Jud's post, Alex. The quality of the recording and mastering is far more important than the choice between analog and digital. John Dyson and sandyk 2 "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
fas42 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 CD mastering can "do anything". As compared to what can be cut in the vinyl, and still allow the needle to follow the path. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the playback system to have the integrity to reproduce whatever was laid down, correctly - and not degenerate into unpleasantness "when the going gets tough!" ... this can be done, and ensures that far more is possible in terms of the sounds that can generated than many believe ... baby food recordings are not the answer, in my book ... Link to comment
SuperRoo Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 I'm getting back to my old vinyl from the 70 & 80". Sold the 70's Thorens 145 MkII. Played with and just sold a Music Hall mmf 1.5. Now enjoying a beta Schiit SOL. I love tweaking it and can spend an hour happily playing with adjustments. When I play my wife's original copy of the The Wild & Innocent & E Street Shuffle that is something special. Some of the old albums sound like crap but there are a few gems in there. I'm really enjoying J.S. Ondara on vinyl. Records are once again a part of our listening routine. STC 1 Nearfield setup-Matrix Element H USB>Curious Evolved>Yggy OG>Freya+>Mono Trys>Harbeth P3ESR 40th & Martin Logan Dynamo 1100X & Burson Soloist w/ Super Charger> Mr.Speakers Ether 2,& Technics 1500C, Arcromat> SoundSmith Carmen MkII > Zu Mission>Parks Puffin Toslink.. Blue Jeans interconnects, Pangea power cables, IsoAcoustics feet, Goldpoint SW2X Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 10 hours ago, SJK said: Any LP that I’ve recorded to digital format at 24/96 is indistinguishable from the LP, and in some cases can be better if it was an older LP with light scratches or crackle as that can be filtered out. A fair comparison would be pressing the digital format to a vinyl. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 hours ago, Jud said: Mostly LP doesn't sound as good as digital, if my experience at audio shows with stratospherically priced playback systems for both is any indication. I am afraid I have to disagree with you on this one. I can't speak for all the LPs out there but I have done comparisons with Tracy Chapman on Clearaudio Statement TT vs Boulder and Esoteric digital. all of them driven by Krell Master Reference monoblocks. In a recent AV show I have also compared Norah Jones LP and digital (but I have to say it was a challenge to distinguish them). ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 hours ago, John Dyson said: Vinyl is technically not as good as digital, but *usually* vinyl has been mastered correctly, but digital, not so much. Ignore the past. Take the best version of current vinyl and digital. Norah Jones and Tracy Chapman are good reference to do the comparisons. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 8 hours ago, PeterSt said: What are you trying to prove this time ? that measurements are not important ? Depending what you are measuring. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
John Dyson Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, STC said: Ignore the past. Take the best version of current vinyl and digital. Norah Jones and Tracy Chapman are good reference to do the comparisons. Yea -- I am living in the past when it comes to the recordings that I am dealing with. Even 'Shake it Off' and 'Call me, maybe' are almost 100% chance DolbyA, but not for the reasons of NR, but instead sound effect or compatibility. I'll tell you though, considering the comments that I've gotten in the past "oh, this is a good one", subsequently finding out not-so-good. I'll take your judgement at face value though. John sandyk 1 Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 hours ago, John Dyson said: If you send a link to a Dropbox (by email), then I can upload it directly into your account. Don't send it through Dropbox, becuase then the upload will charge against my very small account. I can create a folder in my onedrive where you can upload the original and your best decoded version. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
John Dyson Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, STC said: I can create a folder in my onedrive where you can upload the original and your best decoded version. Okay -- I have the 'audiophile' version that is so beloved, but also am going to produce a distortion free version in a day or so. I'll PM you my email address. John STC 1 Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 hours ago, Blackmorec said: Live music is involving and exiting without demanding anything from the listener and I want my hi-fi to sound the same way. That is the purpose of buying high end. 5 hours ago, gmgraves said: However, vinyl and, indeed, analog in general, has, inherent in it, a number of engineering compromises that introduce into the finished recording a certain euphonic "quality" that many people regard as being more musical than digital which they see as "sterile and soulless. This is true. I have been a digital man for a long time although as a toddler I probably listened to the gramophone and vinyl more. I do not deny when you compare a good vinyl and digital playback via loudspeakers, you sense the vinyl sound to be fat and easier on the ears. Subjectively, you can prefer either one and asking audiophiles for such opinions usually tainted with prejudice. I was hoping to hear from headphone listeners because I suspect they may prefer digital. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 34 minutes ago, John Dyson said: I'll tell you though, considering the comments that I've gotten in the past "oh, this is a good one", subsequently finding out not-so-good. Are you referring to my feedback? Can you point me where I have contradicted myself? If so I must be either going senile or deaf. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
John Dyson Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, STC said: Are you referring to my feedback? Can you point me where I have contradicted myself? If so I must be either going senile or deaf. (Please read my disclaimer that I'll take your comment at face value.) :-). Dont misunderstand -- I am not so much an audiophile, but I work on audio processing. I like music, but wouldn't be listening much if I wasn't working on it. I never intend to challenge people -- unless they are wrong :-). John Link to comment
rwwjr44 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 This topic again? 🥱 Aurender N10, Esoteric F-05 Integrated Amplifier, Synergistic Active USB, Oppo 203, Synergistic Atmosphere Level 3 UEF Speaker cables, Legacy Audio Focus SE, Rega Planar 10 turntable with Aphelion 2 cartridge. Link to comment
John Dyson Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 minute ago, rwwjr44 said: This topic again? 🥱 Its a good one... Fixes lots of material -- including at least some classical and even 'Call me maybe' is DolbyA encoded for some reason... John Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 40 minutes ago, John Dyson said: Okay -- I have the 'audiophile' version that is so beloved, but also am going to produce a distortion free version in a day or so. I'll PM you my email address. John I have created the folder for you. Please don't exceed 950GB ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Jud Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 hours ago, John Dyson said: I only have so much space... I have just completed IMO properly (differently) decoded cut 1 'School', and uploading it right now. Even in the Quietest Moments is in progress right now. If you send a link to a Dropbox (by email), then I can upload it directly into your account. Don't send it through Dropbox, becuase then the upload will charge against my very small account. The original is a feral-EQed DolbyA copy. The corrective EQ is the hard part. I don't think that the original will do anyone any good -- really. Feral DolbyA is just yet another commonly available release that sounds compressed. If you want to compare against anything -- find the vinyl, that is what the audiophiles were using for the basis to tell me if I hit the mark. PS: I just thought of possibly uploading a 128k mp3 for your reference. It won't sound perfect, but would give you a basis for reference. That would avoid filling up my Dropbox space (just trying to help!!!) John It was a joke, my friend - "you're bloody well right" is a well known lyric to a Supertramp hit. 🙂 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
STC Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: With this in mind, I think the discussion should be phrased in terms of "how or why is vinyl still relevant, given digital's superiority based on specs?" Please feel free to change the topic as I am unable to change them. I thought the OP could change the title in the past. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
John Dyson Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jud said: It was a joke, my friend - "you're bloody well right" is a well known lyric to a Supertramp hit. 🙂 Okay -- I used to always get in trouble back in the email days back in the 1990s, got into flame wars often because of textual/contextual misunderstanding -- smiley was about as much emotion that could be expressed. Linus blew up at me once when I was being nice -- that was hard to figure out!!! I was in the middle of starting to upload the files to STC and found that onedrive doesn't seem to allow explicit file selection? Is there a way? I am used to Dropbox and the other smaller thing I used to use. (I am scared to death to use my cards over the net -- I have gotten frauded too much. Not paying for an account -- gotta remember to get one of those gift cards when I go to the store, then I can upgrade.) John Link to comment
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