The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[stevebythebay]

Some company’s designs dictate longer lengths https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/caelin-whats-your-view-on-ethernet-cables.27373/#post-586847  But it’s not at all clear for many others. Best to use one of sufficient length to avoid possible reflectance, such as 1.5m. 
 

As for the Niagara, does it offer isolation of each receptacle to another, or in isolated pairs?  That would help. 

[jcn3]

54 minutes ago, emailists said:

What about cable length?  Is there reflectance at certain lengths ?

 

I purchased 2 short cables from Monoprice to try from the ER B side to my DS dac’s Bridge card.    I think I ordered half meter and full meter.

 

I want to burn them in a bit before trying.

 

I currently have the ER plugged into another circuit, rather than into one of the outlets in my Niagara 7000.  Perhaps I should try using with the Niagara.  I imagine it would improve the ER but wondering if the ER power supply will dump noise into the power conditioner, negating the benefit.  

 

The ER power supply is ground shunted so shouldn't dump noise back in. 

[HumanMedia]

3 hours ago, stevebythebay said:

Some company’s designs dictate longer lengths https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/caelin-whats-your-view-on-ethernet-cables.27373/#post-586847  But it’s not at all clear for many others. Best to use one of sufficient length to avoid possible reflectance, such as 1.5m. 
 

As for the Niagara, does it offer isolation of each receptacle to another, or in isolated pairs?  That would help. 

In one of these threads John mentions that it’s usually capacitance requirements for the PHY to work properly to need >1m ethernet cables, but with the ER he has compensated with capacitance in order to support shorte cable lengths.

[PYP]

On 12/17/2019 at 2:04 PM, HumanMedia said:

Will report back. Knowing the sound of the Farad power supplies, I have a sneaking suspicion that they might be the perfect fit for the ER.

 

Curious if you have had a chance to experiment further.  The Farad has a max draw of 42w for 12 volts.  Any idea of what the average draw might be?  Thanks. 

[Jud]

On 12/21/2019 at 10:45 PM, Jud said:

 

More difficult to choose a preference now. Each seems to have advantages. Have the Cat 8 back in the system and letting it run again.

 

After a few more days, did a comparison again. Now prefer the Cable Matters Cat 8. Both are good on the low end; the Cable Matters seems more open at the top. (Always thought it was, but the low end has come through more after some time in the system.)

[kennyb123]

A few friends came over yesterday to do some listening.  We spent much of the time evaluating different room treatment products, but as each of them brought with them an Ethernet cable, we also took some time to compare them between the ER and my Innuos Zenith.  We were unanimous in favoring the SOtM dCBL-CAT7.  The other cables on hand included a Wireworld Starlight (my cable), a Wireworld Platinum Starlight and a pre-production Shunyata Alpha.  Please take this though with a grain of salt as we didn’t spend much time on this.  I mention it only to suggest that the SOtM cable seems worthy of consideration by those interested in an audiophile Ethernet cable to use on what you see as the clean side of the ER.

 

I heard enough to place the SOtM cable at the top of my list of WW Starlight replacement candidates, but I will still want to spend some time comparing it to one of the current production Shunyata cables.  I have some bigger fish to fry first though (room treatments).  

[Johnnydev]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

 

After a few more days, did a comparison again. Now prefer the Cable Matters Cat 8. Both are good on the low end; the Cable Matters seems more open at the top. (Always thought it was, but the low end has come through more after some time in the system.)

Hi Jud,

Have you tested the supra cat8?

[Jud]

8 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

Hi Jud,

Have you tested the supra cat8?

 

Nope. And no particular desire to keep rolling cables. I'm happy.

[alsterfan]

On 12/27/2019 at 11:28 PM, Jud said:

Now prefer the Cable Matters Cat 8. 

Hi Jud,

Where did you buy this cable? I didn´t find a way to buy it in Germany.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, alsterfan said:

Hi Jud,

Where did you buy this cable? I didn´t find a way to buy it in Germany.

 

Hi Uwe. I bought the cable from Amazon US, but didn't see it in a quick search of Amazon.de. And Cable Matters' own store says they're out of stock (I only checked the 1m).

 

 

[Meridimac]

Season's Greetings!  I expect ER in January to replace a Cisco 2960 in my main setup. My question is about the best way to serve a second, remote system connected by in-wall Cat5e (which can travel through a gigabit Catalyst switch, or not) to a ground-shunted Netgear GS-108 located 125 feet away.

 

Summary of Qobuz/Tidal/Roon current streaming situation:

 

Fiber internet provider (Zhone modem) serves Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP (router) wired Cat6 to Intel 7i7BNH NUC running ROCK plus SFP optical fiber to Cisco Catalyst 2960 switch connected by Shunyata Venom ethernet cable to ALLO DigiOne Signature transport which outputs S/PDIF via Blue Jeans cable and SpeakerLink to Meridian DSP5200SE active speakers.

 

Along with other source electronics, ER will be plugged into a Shunyata power strip with Defender AC filter and Alpha NR 20A mains cable on a dedicated circuit. Roon core NUC and a Meridian 218 endpoint will be on A side (with SFP optical) while ALLO endpoint is on B.

 

Questions: Include ethernet to remote system on A side, or run from router? Pass through Cisco gigabit switch or use couplers direct to Netgear? Re-purpose 10/100 Cisco 2960 for remote (also ALLO) endpoint after Netgear, which serves TV, Apple TV, DirecTV?

 

TIA for any suggestions.

 

[sahmen]

5 hours ago, One and a half said:

Here's a great thread on the Topaz type transformers and their applications. Many questions are answered, may take a while to sift through.

 

Thanks, I've moved the question to that topaz thread.

[JohnSwenson]

10 hours ago, Meridimac said:

Season's Greetings!  I expect ER in January to replace a Cisco 2960 in my main setup. My question is about the best way to serve a second, remote system connected by in-wall Cat5e (which can travel through a gigabit Catalyst switch, or not) to a ground-shunted Netgear GS-108 located 125 feet away.

 

Summary of Qobuz/Tidal/Roon current streaming situation:

 

Fiber internet provider (Zhone modem) serves Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP (router) wired Cat6 to Intel 7i7BNH NUC running ROCK plus SFP optical fiber to Cisco Catalyst 2960 switch connected by Shunyata Venom ethernet cable to ALLO DigiOne Signature transport which outputs S/PDIF via Blue Jeans cable and SpeakerLink to Meridian DSP5200SE active speakers.

 

Along with other source electronics, ER will be plugged into a Shunyata power strip with Defender AC filter and Alpha NR 20A mains cable on a dedicated circuit. Roon core NUC and a Meridian 218 endpoint will be on A side (with SFP optical) while ALLO endpoint is on B.

 

Questions: Include ethernet to remote system on A side, or run from router? Pass through Cisco gigabit switch or use couplers direct to Netgear? Re-purpose 10/100 Cisco 2960 for remote (also ALLO) endpoint after Netgear, which serves TV, Apple TV, DirecTV?

 

TIA for any suggestions.

 

You want to keep the ER near the ALLO without any boxes in between. I would probably run the existing optical connection from the Ubiquity router to the optical SFP on the ER. This sounds like it is just swapping the 10/100 2960 for the ER, correct? Is the router near the ER? Is the 125ft cable near the ER?

 

If the router, ER and 125ft cable all near each other it seems you have several ways to hook this up:

 

1) ER optical from router, 125 cable from router, gigbit 2960 or Netgear at other end

2) gigabit 2960 from router, 125ft cable from gig 2960, Netgear or 10/100 2960 at other end

3) gigabit 2960 from router, 125ft cable AND optical to ER from gig 2960, Netgear or 10/100 2960 at other end

4) 10/100 2960 from router, ER from 10/100 2960 optical,  125ft cable from router, gig 2960 on other end.

 

The 10/100 2960 has one gig port and the rest 10/100 so whether you can use it at the end of the 125ft cable depends on if the TV etc can run at 100 or if the NEED gigbit.

 

Several people have stated that the ER driven by a 2960 sounds better than the ER directly into a router. The SFP port on the 10/100 2960 IS gigabit, so it can talk to the SFP on the ER.

 

I'm getting a feeling that #4 probably gives you the best over all optimization.

 

John S.

 

 

[thyname]

You guys keep talking about a Cisco 2960 router, with SFP cages, but they are so many models with that number, and a bunch of letters, I have a hard time locating one. 

[Meridimac]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

You want to keep the ER near the ALLO without any boxes in between. I would probably run the existing optical connection from the Ubiquity router to the optical SFP on the ER. This sounds like it is just swapping the 10/100 2960 for the ER, correct? Is the router near the ER? Is the 125ft cable near the ER?

 

If the router, ER and 125ft cable all near each other it seems you have several ways to hook this up:

 

1) ER optical from router, 125 cable from router, gigbit 2960 or Netgear at other end

2) gigabit 2960 from router, 125ft cable from gig 2960, Netgear or 10/100 2960 at other end

3) gigabit 2960 from router, 125ft cable AND optical to ER from gig 2960, Netgear or 10/100 2960 at other end

4) 10/100 2960 from router, ER from 10/100 2960 optical,  125ft cable from router, gig 2960 on other end.

 

The 10/100 2960 has one gig port and the rest 10/100 so whether you can use it at the end of the 125ft cable depends on if the TV etc can run at 100 or if the NEED gigbit.

 

Several people have stated that the ER driven by a 2960 sounds better than the ER directly into a router. The SFP port on the 10/100 2960 IS gigabit, so it can talk to the SFP on the ER.

 

I'm getting a feeling that #4 probably gives you the best over all optimization.

 

John S.

 

 

Hi John. Thanks for the quick reply.

 

The ER will be close to the Ubiquity router which has one SFP optical for connection to the ER optical. So, yes, I will just swap your switch to replace my existing Cisco model WS-C2960-8TC-L. Because it has 10/100 out, it can't then replace the remote gigabit Netgear serving the AV pieces 125 feet away, but could sit between the Netgear and distant Roon endpoint if you think there would be a benefit. Every item mentioned can connect to ER or the router.

 

The other Cisco switch Catalyst WS-C2960G-24TC-L serves everything in the house from the router EXCEPT the main audio system which is isolated by the optical connection. This gigabit switch can be bypassed, using couplers, should I want to have the remote audio system directly connected to the A side like I plan for the Roon core NUC and a Meridian 218 endpoint (which is waiting for that company to finally, someday update the firmware).

 

Do I bypass the Cisco that feeds all kinds of other stuff to keep everything audio on the ER?

 

BTW, in theory, I could also bypass the Netgear from ER side A using an optical converter directly to the SFP cage in the potentially remote 10/100 Cisco because I bundled fiber in with cat5e everywhere when I built the house, but have never pulled it out from behind the wall plates or spliced it.

 

 

[Mike Rubin]

EDIT:  Upon closer reading, it appears that Thotdoc believes there are differences between ethernet cables in this configuration, as well.

 

ORIGINAL POST:  This may have been addressed already, but, if it was, I missed it in scanning the nine pages above.  
 

I plan to run my existing 6 foot ethernet cable (Blue Jean CAT 6A) from my wall plate to the ER that I expect in January and then go via optical into an opticalRendu.  The wallplate is connected by CAT 6 to the router on the floor below.  Although the other ethernet drops in my house run through a 48 port Netgear SOHO unmanaged switch, this one bypasses the switch.  
 

Have any of you explored whether changing an ethernet cable into the B side makes a sonic difference when the ER is outputting optical on the A side?  It appears the consensus is that ethernet cables make a difference going the other way.

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, Meridimac said:

Hi John. Thanks for the quick reply.

 

The ER will be close to the Ubiquity router which has one SFP optical for connection to the ER optical. So, yes, I will just swap your switch to replace my existing Cisco model WS-C2960-8TC-L. Because it has 10/100 out, it can't then replace the remote gigabit Netgear serving the AV pieces 125 feet away, but could sit between the Netgear and distant Roon endpoint if you think there would be a benefit. Every item mentioned can connect to ER or the router.

 

The other Cisco switch Catalyst WS-C2960G-24TC-L serves everything in the house from the router EXCEPT the main audio system which is isolated by the optical connection. This gigabit switch can be bypassed, using couplers, should I want to have the remote audio system directly connected to the A side like I plan for the Roon core NUC and a Meridian 218 endpoint (which is waiting for that company to finally, someday update the firmware).

 

Do I bypass the Cisco that feeds all kinds of other stuff to keep everything audio on the ER?

 

BTW, in theory, I could also bypass the Netgear from ER side A using an optical converter directly to the SFP cage in the potentially remote 10/100 Cisco because I bundled fiber in with cat5e everywhere when I built the house, but have never pulled it out from behind the wall plates or spliced it.

 

 

Since you are running optical into the ER, it is probably better to just have that connection into the ER and hook other stuff up to the 2960, although if they are near each other you could try it both ways and see what sounds best.

 

There is no obvious "this will definitely be the best", so it looks like if you really are interested in optimizing the system you are going to have to try some things out and see what sounds best.

 

John S.

[emailists]

I have 2 things to report, the second I find quite disturbing.

 

After some encouraging discussion here, I decided to try plugging the ER into my power conditioner, the Niagara 7000.

 

My first thought was keep the ER far away from the system and off the same power circuit.

 

I was proven wrong on both accounts.  Moving the ER close to the DAC with a short Ethernet cable gave great results I had posted previously in the listening impressions thread.  

 

Now attaching the ER into the power conditioner took the instrument I was paying attention to from more forward and amorphous to refined, receded and specific. 'A very nice improvement' I thought and best of all it was free by utilizing my existing investment in the Garth Powell (from Furman now Audioquest) designed conditioner. 

 

What I did next was put the ER up on 3 cones with a TTweights 5 pound or so copper label weight from my turntable on top.

 

This was the biggest shock of all.  The music gained a liveliness and force like it was being squeezed out of a tube.

 

I was enjoying it for a day or two and I wanted to play some lp's  so I took the copper weight off the ER.  I was surprised how hot was.  It was a fantastic heat sync (as were the cones.)  So hot I had to let it cool before risking it on a piece of vinyl.  

I played the LP with a different label weight, not of copper and half the weight.   Once the copper weight cooled I placed it on the turntable (mid LP) and the sound gained an authority similar to what I heard the weight do for the ER!  It was a little weird, one being analog the other digital, but I have always been a proponent of mechanical grounding (preferably by copper or brass) as opposed to floating isolation. 

 

The next day I played the ER with NO cones or weight, to hear the baseline once again.  After 1 track I slipped the cones and weight back into place and wow!  Just a whole new take on the performance.  Outstanding.    

 

Which leads me back to the thing I found disturbing.  If my 'add on' mass and mechanical grounding has such an impact on the ER, then the enclosure is limiting the ER's true sonic potential... by a lot! 

 

I'm not saying a $650 item should have any kind of audio jewelry, but in this case I feel a much better and more massive case upgrade is warranted.  An enclosure that allows as much of the vibration inherent in the boards to drain into something more massive, and lowers the resonance is definitely something I could see being beneficial.

[stevebythebay]

I believe if you read through a number of other posts in the various forums about the eR you'll find a number of them, especially from Puma Cat, discussing both placing resonance reducing platforms below the eR as well as adding weights to the top of the eR, in this last case as both heat sink and to a lesser degree from any movement due to heavy Ethernet cables.

 

I've been experimenting with a variety of items along these lines.  Below I've tested silicone types and Ayre Myrtle wood blocks for vibration absorption, and finally a bunch of Synergistic Research MiG 2.0 footers.  The latter have been the most surprising, providing a more focused image with greater dynamics, and an even wider sound stage and quieter / blacker background, allowing me to crank up the volume that much more.  I'd not thought to use them, given the small eR footprint, but I was able to get 3 of them to just fit.  As for the use of a heat sink, I got a Sumnacon door stop, and removed the rubber bottom for best heat transfer.  It's nice in that respect as well as keeping the eR stable on my HRS rack.

 

So, in essence, I agree with your observations, in that it seems the eR is somewhat susceptible to it's environment.  Guess the electronics, under the hood, can be effected by any number of things.  I'm most certain some will find other tweaks related to where the eR is located relative to other components, how best to shield the eR from stray RFI (Faraday cage anyone?).  Time will tell.

[Nenon]

8 hours ago, emailists said:

I have 2 things to report, the second I find quite disturbing.

 

After some encouraging discussion here, I decided to try plugging the ER into my power conditioner, the Niagara 7000.

 

My first thought was keep the ER far away from the system and off the same power circuit.

 

I was proven wrong on both accounts.  Moving the ER close to the DAC with a short Ethernet cable gave great results I had posted previously in the listening impressions thread.  

 

Now attaching the ER into the power conditioner took the instrument I was paying attention to from more forward and amorphous to refined, receded and specific. 'A very nice improvement' I thought and best of all it was free by utilizing my existing investment in the Garth Powell (from Furman now Audioquest) designed conditioner. 

 

What I did next was put the ER up on 3 cones with a TTweights 5 pound or so copper label weight from my turntable on top.

 

This was the biggest shock of all.  The music gained a liveliness and force like it was being squeezed out of a tube.

 

I was enjoying it for a day or two and I wanted to play some lp's  so I took the copper weight off the ER.  I was surprised how hot was.  It was a fantastic heat sync (as were the cones.)  So hot I had to let it cool before risking it on a piece of vinyl.  

I played the LP with a different label weight, not of copper and half the weight.   Once the copper weight cooled I placed it on the turntable (mid LP) and the sound gained an authority similar to what I heard the weight do for the ER!  It was a little weird, one being analog the other digital, but I have always been a proponent of mechanical grounding (preferably by copper or brass) as opposed to floating isolation. 

 

The next day I played the ER with NO cones or weight, to hear the baseline once again.  After 1 track I slipped the cones and weight back into place and wow!  Just a whole new take on the performance.  Outstanding.    

 

Which leads me back to the thing I found disturbing.  If my 'add on' mass and mechanical grounding has such an impact on the ER, then the enclosure is limiting the ER's true sonic potential... by a lot! 

 

I'm not saying a $650 item should have any kind of audio jewelry, but in this case I feel a much better and more massive case upgrade is warranted.  An enclosure that allows as much of the vibration inherent in the boards to drain into something more massive, and lowers the resonance is definitely something I could see being beneficial.

 

 

 

 

I have been keeping my ER on top of a stillpoints ultra6 with a heavy weight since day 1. The ultra6 foot is more expensive than the ER but I had one spare anyway. 
There is a good opportunity for an aftermarket case for the ER. At the end of the day, it is just a PCB board that can be easily moved to a better chassis. 
I have mentioned that to @Superdad. But he would always have different types of users - those who prefer compact/small (you may add cheaper as well) and those who want to squeeze out every last bit of performance and are ready to pay for a chassis carved by a one big block of aluminum. And anything in between. I guess it’s hard for a company like UA to create a range of products to satisfy every client out there. That’s why we have all these aftermarket accessories. 
Vibration control is always beneficial for devices with clocks. The ER is no exception here. 
What I am wondering is if in your case you also get a performance gain from the additional heat dissipation. I have noticed with my digital sources that even when you use wide temperature parts (I.e. the Apacer RAM that is designed to work in the -40°C~95°C range), there is a nice sound improvement when you manage to keep the parts cooler.

Can you try a different weight (non copper) and check if it copper makes a big difference? 

Perhaps one of these - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KWPU1RY/ ?

[RickyV]

19 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Can you try a different weight (non copper) and check if it copper makes a big difference? 

Why non copper or do you mean non-ferro, iron. It is my understanding that we need to keep magnetic metals away from audio signals. Stainless is also non-ferro.

[Nenon]

1 minute ago, RickyV said:

Why non copper or do you mean non-ferro, iron. It is my understanding that we need to keep magnetic metals away from audio signals. Stainless is also non-ferro.

Copper dissipates a lot of heat and acts like a heatsink. I was wondering if the improvement comes from simply the added vibration control or from the additional heatsink. Hence suggested to try with a different weight that would not act as a heatsink. That may tell us if the ER benefits from additional heatsinking to keep it cooler. Or the benefit is strictly from the better vibration control.

[emailists]

I can’t say how the heat dissipation helped sonically, but I can say when I put the cones and weight back on the ER it was a day later and in its normal “hot” mode.  I could hear the improvement immediately, so I imagine the unit had not yet cooled 30 or 60 seconds later. 

 

I can try try some alternative weights when I can find an appropriate one around the house.

 

Late last night I played back a Carpenters best of SACD file.  With the ER on the power conditioner and weights It sounded so incredibly creamy, lush and natural.  Softer music is definitely easier to record and playback, but it make me think that mass market multi track recording Sonically  peaked during the years the SACD covered, 1969-73.  

 

My theory is that the mixing desks at the time were much more simple than they would become in the mid and late 70’s, and there may well have been tubes used somewhere in the recoding chain.  Interestingly the Ken Burns Country music doc shows the evolution of music studios and indeed mixing boards were much more simple affairs in that era. 

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

Copper dissipates a lot of heat and acts like a heatsink. I was wondering if the improvement comes from simply the added vibration control or from the additional heatsink. Hence suggested to try with a different weight that would not act as a heatsink. That may tell us if the ER benefits from additional heatsinking to keep it cooler. Or the benefit is strictly from the better vibration control.

The components that generate heat in the ER have no contact with the case, via heat transfer pads or something. So between the heat generating components, and most of them have heatsinks on top of them, is air. Air does not conduct heat very well so if you cool the ER with heatsink imo you are just cooling the case, not the components on the pcb. 
If you want to cool the inside of the ER you have let out the “hot” air, so dril holes so cooler air can get in and hot air out. Or you can unscrew the front and screw it back with washers in between the front and the case. Both sides maybe.

 

But what is hot? My ER case is 40C. The oscillator inside the ER likes a “hot” stable temperature. Maybe the specs of the oscillator gives a ideal temperature.

[BigAlMc]

10 hours ago, emailists said:

What I did next was put the ER up on 3 cones with a TTweights 5 pound or so copper label weight from my turntable on top

 

Sorry if a question but can you elaborate on cones please?

 

So hypothesis seems to be vibration absorption coupled with a heavy weight?

 

You have my attention as mine is floating behind my rack, suspended by cable tension 🤔