The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[pietka08]

4 minutes ago, Duckworp said:

Dzięki za link. Ten kabel też wygląda dobrze. Oferują trzy opcje: 

1. Połączone z obu stron

2. Połączone z jednej strony

3. Pływające

 

Którą opcję wybrać na ostry dyżur?

Floating. A lot about it on the Naim forum, unfortunately I don't have a link, you will definitely find it.

[James Stephens]

Hi there, this might be a good time to quote the User Guide:

 

"Regarding Ethernet cables: We are frequently asked for guidance regarding Ethernet cables to use with the EtherREGEN. This can be a controversial subject—by what means can an Ethernet cable affect the sound?—and absent objective evidence of variations, we will decline to recommend purchase of any fancy or expensive Ethernet cabling. Still, ultimate audio is a pursuit with many variables not yet fully understood. Not long ago few would believe an Ethernet switch could make a sonic impact—so we are open-minded about experimentation with network cables. However, there are some very real physical differences between certain Ethernet cables which can affect fine audio systems. Specifically, the shielding of Ethernet cables and if the wire shield on the cable is electrically connected to metal-shelled RJ45 plugs at both ends. For this explanation we will refer to such cables as “shield-tied.” It is desirable to avoid connection of multiple shield-tied cables into the RJ45 ports on the ‘A’-side of the EtherREGEN. This has nothing at all to do with data or signal quality. In fact, this recommendation is not even specific to the EtherREGEN. Ethernet cables having metal RJ45 shells and end-to-end connected shield wires will unite the grounds and zero-volt power domains of the equipment they are attached to. This provides a path for potentially detrimental AC leakage loops to form. If all you are attaching with such cables (on the ‘A’ side) are computer, NAS, and the feed from your main switch or modem/router, the leakage loops formed between that gear will likely be fairly benign. But if one of those components is somehow also connected to your audio/video system, you may introduce undesirable leakage currents. Keep in mind that the above is exclusively with regards to ‘A’-side EtherREGEN connections (or with standard switches). The ‘B’ side of the EtherREGEN is neither susceptible, nor can it become part of, ANY leakage loops. The ‘B’ side circuitry and port exist on their own entirely isolated power and ground domain. [Only the External clock BNC ground is common to the ‘B’-side ground-plane.] So if you have a fancy metal-shell shield-tied Ethernet cable, go ahead and use it on the ‘B’ side port for connection your DAC-attached streamer/renderer endpoint. This is the connection that matters most when using an EtherREGEN anyway: If you are going to hear a difference with an Ethernet cable, it will more likely be with the ‘B’-side cable. This is also a good one to keep short."

 

Best,

James

[Duckworp]

 

 

Thanks @James Stephens. How can we tell if an ethernet cable has "shield-tied" cables?  I understand that you are saying that plastic connectors are better than metal ones, and that is visually easy to spot.  But what terminology in the cable description gives us the other info?  Also if you only have one cable going into the A side does this advice not matter, or does it hold true still?  Thanks for your help.

[MasterWarzombie]

59 minutes ago, James Stephens said:

Hi there, this might be a good time to quote the User Guide:

 

"Regarding Ethernet cables: We are frequently asked for guidance regarding Ethernet cables to use with the EtherREGEN. This can be a controversial subject—by what means can an Ethernet cable affect the sound?—and absent objective evidence of variations, we will decline to recommend purchase of any fancy or expensive Ethernet cabling. Still, ultimate audio is a pursuit with many variables not yet fully understood. Not long ago few would believe an Ethernet switch could make a sonic impact—so we are open-minded about experimentation with network cables. However, there are some very real physical differences between certain Ethernet cables which can affect fine audio systems. Specifically, the shielding of Ethernet cables and if the wire shield on the cable is electrically connected to metal-shelled RJ45 plugs at both ends. For this explanation we will refer to such cables as “shield-tied.” It is desirable to avoid connection of multiple shield-tied cables into the RJ45 ports on the ‘A’-side of the EtherREGEN. This has nothing at all to do with data or signal quality. In fact, this recommendation is not even specific to the EtherREGEN. Ethernet cables having metal RJ45 shells and end-to-end connected shield wires will unite the grounds and zero-volt power domains of the equipment they are attached to. This provides a path for potentially detrimental AC leakage loops to form. If all you are attaching with such cables (on the ‘A’ side) are computer, NAS, and the feed from your main switch or modem/router, the leakage loops formed between that gear will likely be fairly benign. But if one of those components is somehow also connected to your audio/video system, you may introduce undesirable leakage currents. Keep in mind that the above is exclusively with regards to ‘A’-side EtherREGEN connections (or with standard switches). The ‘B’ side of the EtherREGEN is neither susceptible, nor can it become part of, ANY leakage loops. The ‘B’ side circuitry and port exist on their own entirely isolated power and ground domain. [Only the External clock BNC ground is common to the ‘B’-side ground-plane.] So if you have a fancy metal-shell shield-tied Ethernet cable, go ahead and use it on the ‘B’ side port for connection your DAC-attached streamer/renderer endpoint. This is the connection that matters most when using an EtherREGEN anyway: If you are going to hear a difference with an Ethernet cable, it will more likely be with the ‘B’-side cable. This is also a good one to keep short."

 

Best,

James

We no longer know what to think!
Once you can't connect a shielded cable from the side, another time you can!

The Etherregen starts to be complicated for the connection to avoid problems because you need 15 different power supplies, shielded cables or not!
I powered my external clock and my ER with my JS2. You cannot to avoid problems.
Now I read that you cannot connect a shielded ethernet cable to side B.
Suddenly, I'm not going to plug anything into my ER and plug everything into my Sotm switch because it just becomes complex for a product supposed to be easy to use!

[MarkusBarkus]

...there are several knowledgeable people here (I am not saying I am one of them) who avoid shielded network cables altogether, which makes it simpler to manage. 
 

Top level, I think we could summarize that we are trying to avoid multiple paths for very small and unwanted currents to move among/between our devices and cables.
 

We want to facilitate the desired signals as best we can, while reducing the unwanted signals--as best we can.
 

It can be confusing, for sure.
 

I think you might have the same concerns with the SotM switch, wouldn't you? It may seem to be an eRG "thing" because those guys put out a lot of content regarding how things work--and you're on one of "their" threads. But it's not unique to their products. It's an electrical characteristic to be managed for such products. 
 

Welcome to hi-end audio tweaking! 

[Avalfa]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:43 PM, Stereophonic said:

Really interesting experience....

Where do you connect the external Kangai Ethernet ground cable?

 Sorry for the late response, I just read it now.

 

The ground cable, I've tried different places to connect it, at the moment it is connected at the ground terminal of my pre-amp/DAC/streamer (which is one device) and it stays connected there.

 

[MartinT]

I use a 3m MeiCord for the incoming run from router to A side.  A very short 12cm Cat6 unshielded cable from B side to ultraRendu.  Both cables have plastic plugs.  It isn't that difficult to get it right.  Start with good basic cables and listen.  A lot.  Make changes carefully and always go back to your base reference.  Never make more than one change at a time.

 

Keep the B side cable as short as possible, which is another way of saying have the ER close to your endpoint.

[James Stephens]

2 hours ago, Duckworp said:

 

 

Thanks @James Stephens. How can we tell if an ethernet cable has "shield-tied" cables?  I understand that you are saying that plastic connectors are better than metal ones, and that is visually easy to spot.  But what terminology in the cable description gives us the other info?  Also if you only have one cable going into the A side does this advice not matter, or does it hold true still?  Thanks for your help.

Hi there,

 

Before ethernet cables were used for audio they would either be shielded or unshielded, and shielded meant shield-tied at both ends, with metal connectors ... easy to spot .. and to be avoided as they carry leakage currents. 

 

But yes.. if there is only one shielded ethernet cable connected to the A-side of your ER, then you don't have to worry because of the moat in the ER.

 

Now that there are so many boutique cable offerings, you have to ask the manufacturer what they do. I have to admit I don't understand why a cable would be shield-tied at one end only. If someone understands or can explain this I am all ears!

 

I use ethernet cables from Ghent Audio that are shielded via the JSSG360 method ... the shield is not connected at the ends and so it brings the traditional benefits of shielding ... namely blocking EMI .. but also blocks leakage currents. I use them everywhere because although I only have a single fiber connection to the A-side of my ER, there are other places in my network .. router, modem etc where I desire to block leakage currents.

 

Best,

James

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, Duckworp said:

 

 

Thanks @James Stephens. How can we tell if an ethernet cable has "shield-tied" cables?  I understand that you are saying that plastic connectors are better than metal ones, and that is visually easy to spot.  But what terminology in the cable description gives us the other info?  Also if you only have one cable going into the A side does this advice not matter, or does it hold true still?  Thanks for your help.

Here is a good cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

 

[MasterWarzombie]

 

OK folks. If I understand correctly, all internet cables with TELEGARTNER plug are to be avoided. I thought I read that John indicated that if the elements are connected to the same power socket, it is not a problem IF you have a quality unshielded cable, I am the buyer.

[James Stephens]

39 minutes ago, James Stephens said:

I use ethernet cables from Ghent Audio that are shielded via the JSSG360 method ... the shield is not connected at the ends and so it brings the traditional benefits of shielding ... namely blocking EMI .. but also blocks leakage currents. I use them everywhere because although I only have a single fiber connection to the A-side of my ER, there are other places in my network .. router, modem etc where I desire to block leakage currents.

 

 

JSSG aka "John Swenson Shield Ground" is a subject in itself and I'm not an expert. The 360 method is a specific implementation of it. 

[MasterWarzombie]

2 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Here is a good cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

 

it is shielded so it is not a good cable. I'm teasing . My Wireworld cable has the same connectors.

 

same : 

https://www.adark.co/products/afterdark-constellation-cfs-cat7-telegartner-mfp8-edition

 

it is however recommended by @ AfterDark

[James Stephens]

4 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Here is a good cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

 

 

Thanks for the link. That's what I am using too 😄. Best, James

[R1200CL]

17 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

286 / 5000

 

Résultats de traduction

OK folks. If I understand correctly, all internet cables with TELEGARTNER plug are to be avoided. I thought I read that John indicated that if the elements are connected to the same power socket, it is not a problem IF you have a quality unshielded cable, I am the buyer.

Yes, but not this one. That plug adds extra shield and EMI protection in this case. Just like the extremely expensive Audiquest Vodka. 

[R1200CL]

22 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

it is shielded so it is not a good cable. I'm teasing . My Wireworld cable has the same connectors.

 

same : 

https://www.adark.co/products/afterdark-constellation-cfs-cat7-telegartner-mfp8-edition

 

it is however recommended by @ AfterDark

Ask @AfterDark.what happens when you add a ohm meter between the plugs. If it’s a connection, I strongly advise not to purchase that cable. And if it hasn’t, JSSG version is still a better choice in my opinion.

Another good manufacturer is blue jeans. And many like the Supra cables. 

 

Ghent also make excellent DC cable, and many of us has noticed that make a huge difference. 
 

Please measure your Wireworld with an ohm meter. If no connection, I’m sure it’s a good cable. 
 

Let’s end this discussion. 

[ambre]

58 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

 

OK folks. If I understand correctly, all internet cables with TELEGARTNER plug are to be avoided. 

No that’s nonsense. Only if the shield is tight resp. Connected  to the earth in this case metal part of an RJ45 connector is mostly not preferred on A-side of Etherregen. Please read manual Etherregen more in depth.

 

The Telegartner it’s self if very fine an audiophile connector.

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Here is a good cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

 

How (un)flexible is this cable?

Thinking of eR sitting by the computer attached to the DAC, with B-side of eR and pc connector being 8" apart, and connecting in U (connectors facing out), will a 16" cable do or should I get something longer?

[James Stephens]

1 hour ago, LewinskiH01 said:

How (un)flexible is this cable?

Thinking of eR sitting by the computer attached to the DAC, with B-side of eR and pc connector being 8" apart, and connecting in U (connectors facing out), will a 16" cable do or should I get something longer?

 

This cable is on the stiff side. Ghent Cable lengths include the connectors and with those cables you'll lose 2" including the connector + sleeve at each end. I'd be more inclined to go longer  .. I suggest 0.5m (approx. 19.5") to better ensure you don't exert sideways stress on the connectors.

 

Best,

James

 

[jamesg11]

I went from this above Ghent (now on mac mini m1 server in adjoining room) to this Ghent (& have thought it an improvement) -

ET12 Linkway CAT8 40Gbps/2000MHz Ethernet(JSSG360) Cable.

[FIndingit]

This is a typical grounded rj45 female receptable. Like the one on ER. Only the small clips on the sides make contact with the ground. 
 

It is very easy to cover the sides of a connector of a shielded cable with a small piece of tape to prevent the contact. Problem solved. 
 

No need to buy new cables. Can be easily reversed. Use tape on one or both ends. Listen before and after. 

[James Stephens]

7 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

I went from this above Ghent (now on mac mini m1 server in adjoining room) to this Ghent (& have thought it an improvement) -

ET12 Linkway CAT8 40Gbps/2000MHz Ethernet(JSSG360) Cable.

Thanks for sharing. I have actually been meaning to try that cable on the B-side DAC connection of my ER .... I plan to add one to my next order. 

[agladstone]

1 hour ago, jamesg11 said:

I went from this above Ghent (now on mac mini m1 server in adjoining room) to this Ghent (& have thought it an improvement) -

ET12 Linkway CAT8 40Gbps/2000MHz Ethernet(JSSG360) Cable.

In your opinion does this seem to be the best Ethernet cable Ghent offers for the EtherRegen? I’m about to place an order for some Ghent DC cables and Ethernet cables for my née EtherRegen which should be arriving tomorrow:) 

[so-no-mah]

For what it's worth, my Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet cable has metal connectors, but there is no continuity between the plug ends suggesting that the shield is floating and not tied...

[JohnSwenson]

15 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

We no longer know what to think!
Once you can't connect a shielded cable from the side, another time you can!

The Etherregen starts to be complicated for the connection to avoid problems because you need 15 different power supplies, shielded cables or not!
I powered my external clock and my ER with my JS2. You cannot to avoid problems.
Now I read that you cannot connect a shielded ethernet cable to side B.
Suddenly, I'm not going to plug anything into my ER and plug everything into my Sotm switch because it just becomes complex for a product supposed to be easy to use!

Hi Master,

these things discussed here such as ground loops and leakage loops are things that are likely to already be in your system. These cause various sound quality degradations. The ER is designed to radically decrease these effects on your system. Unfortunately some system configurations prevent the ER from being fully effective. The ER tackles other problems that aren't related to this at all and those are still working even if you violate every rule in the book.

 

The ER does not cause these issues, it is there to prevent them. Non of these configurations stop your system from working, they just mean you will not be getting all the possible benefit you could from the ER. Even if you do not get the configuration "perfect" you will STILL get significant improvement from the ER.

 

These things along the lines of "you can't do this" or "you have to do this" are in regards to these configuration issues that MAY make a small increase in the effectiveness of the ER. For example some "rule" designed to prevent ground loops will only make a difference IF your internal wall wiring and your wall connections of all your gear will cause a ground loop in the first place. If your system will not produce a ground loop, then "violating the rule" will not make any difference. If your system is such that ground loops can happen, then violating the rule which relates to ground loops, probably will mean your sound quality will not be as good as it possibly could be, but it almost certainly will be significantly better then if you didn't use the ER at all.

 

My recommendation is not to get caught up in getting the configuration perfect straight off, but  hook it up in a reasonable manor, let things burn in, listen a lot, then if you wish, slowly try different configurations until you find what works the best in your system.

 

HAVE FUN,

 

John S.

[MasterWarzombie]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi Master,

these things discussed here such as ground loops and leakage loops are things that are likely to already be in your system. These cause various sound quality degradations. The ER is designed to radically decrease these effects on your system. Unfortunately some system configurations prevent the ER from being fully effective. The ER tackles other problems that aren't related to this at all and those are still working even if you violate every rule in the book.

 

The ER does not cause these issues, it is there to prevent them. Non of these configurations stop your system from working, they just mean you will not be getting all the possible benefit you could from the ER. Even if you do not get the configuration "perfect" you will STILL get significant improvement from the ER.

 

These things along the lines of "you can't do this" or "you have to do this" are in regards to these configuration issues that MAY make a small increase in the effectiveness of the ER. For example some "rule" designed to prevent ground loops will only make a difference IF your internal wall wiring and your wall connections of all your gear will cause a ground loop in the first place. If your system will not produce a ground loop, then "violating the rule" will not make any difference. If your system is such that ground loops can happen, then violating the rule which relates to ground loops, probably will mean your sound quality will not be as good as it possibly could be, but it almost certainly will be significantly better then if you didn't use the ER at all.

 

My recommendation is not to get caught up in getting the configuration perfect straight off, but  hook it up in a reasonable manor, let things burn in, listen a lot, then if you wish, slowly try different configurations until you find what works the best in your system.

 

HAVE FUN,

 

John S.

 

Merci @JohnSwenson;)

If the equipment is connected to the same Gigawatt power strip for example or the same power conditioner, that does not solve these possible concerns ground loops and leakage loops?

I understand that the quest for the perfect audiophile is fraught with pitfalls.