The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[MarkusBarkus]

14 minutes ago, chungjh said:

On 1/12/2021 at 11:08 AM, R1200CL said:

 

Is there now a consensus that the fiber in the chain noticeably improves the SQ?

A consensus probably depends on how many, and who replies.
 

I do not have two eReGens, I have one. I have had fiber in my system for many months, in various configurations: 10Gtek FMCs, eRG, Sonore OM, two Ciscos, PF Buffalo. 
 

Regardless of the configuration, IMO fiber is a net-plus in SQ in my system.
 

I just 15 minutes ago pulled a Corning run the ISP gave me so when they come tomorrow for a new fiber service, they breech the structure, hang their ONT inside, plug and play.
 

And I get the cable run where and how I want it. Glad to do the work for them.

 

I will then have a dedicated, audio only, fiber service. That's how much I like fiber. I'll keep the cable ISP for TV and home/phone stuff.

[R1200CL]

47 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

i will then have a dedicated, audio only, fiber service. That's how much I like fiber. I'll keep the cable ISP for TV and home/phone stuff.

Do you have two ISP’s ?

 

[chungjh]

55 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

A consensus probably depends on how many, and who replies.
 

I do not have two eReGens, I have one. I have had fiber in my system for many months, in various configurations: 10Gtek FMCs, eRG, Sonore OM, two Ciscos, PF Buffalo. 
 

Regardless of the configuration, IMO fiber is a net-plus in SQ in my system.
 

I just 15 minutes ago pulled a Corning run the ISP gave me so when they come tomorrow for a new fiber service, they breech the structure, hang their ONT inside, plug and play.
 

And I get the cable run where and how I want it. Glad to do the work for them.

 

I will then have a dedicated, audio only, fiber service. That's how much I like fiber. I'll keep the cable ISP for TV and home/phone stuff.

Which fiber service? Fios?

[MarkusBarkus]

Service is Greenlight fiber optic in Rochester, NY. 

[MarkusBarkus]

33 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Do you have two ISP’s ?

Yes, sir. Spectrum for Internet/WiFi things in the house and cable TV.
 

Greenlight fiber optic for audio...as of tomorrow.

 

I'll have to tweak the WiFi channels for best results, I suppose. I am not sure if I can or need to turn off ports in the new/second router to improve performance. 

[gstew]

6 hours ago, chungjh said:

I have my ER powered by PHynes SR4T and it improved my SQ. Does everyone who tried it notice a significant SQ improvement with a GOOD LPS for the modem/router? Or would it be a marginal improvement?

 

On 1/3/2021 at 2:24 PM, gstew said:

EtherRegen, the gift that keeps on giving!

 

I’ve had my EtherRegen’s since some of the first shipments and loved the improvements they wrought. For some of my thoughts, see the first post of this thread.

 

The magnitude of the improvement from the ERs surprised me as I THOUGHT I had configured my pre-ER network into a good ‘do no harm’ configuration:

 

• ZyXel switch selected for reasonable sonics
• An optical FMC link just before my endpoint with the better sounding FMC (modified Delock) on the endpoint side in an attempt to lower noise to the endpoint
• Low-noise music source server  (Zotac PI320-W3)
• Older WiFi router (D-Link DI-624) configured as an access point for control from a cellphone or computer
• Shortest possible cables (I know this is not always true, but I start from a perspective of the shortest cable is the best cable… or at least does the least harm!)
• ALL linear power supplies, no SMPSs
• NO connection to the wider Internet to limit any possibility of sonic degradation from the associated equipment and connection

 

My post-ER setup was simpler, with just the WiFi endpoint and music source computer connected on the A-side of the ER and a connection to my endpoint on the B-side.

 

In the year+ the ER’s have been in the wild, I’m reading reports of additional improvements available by adding either selected routers or an FMC link before the ER or even cascading 2 ER’s. While I have 2 ER’s and can try a cascade, IF I liked it too much it’d be another $1,300 to purchase 2 more as I run 2 separate setups. AND I don’t have any of the prized routers, though someday I’ll try what I have around.

 

BUT I still had my FMC optical Ethernet link HW, the Trendnet -> Delock FMC pair I had used previously. I found the Trendnet was a slight but noticeable upgrade form the TPLink FMCs I first tried as an optical Ethernet link in an attempt to lower noise into my music player endpoint back in 2016. The Delocks were recommended in a post on this forum as a very good sounding FMC. I modified my Delocks with a good low-noise regulator (ADM7151) to provide more flexibility on power supply selection.

 

With just two connections into my ER’s, the music server and the old WiFi Router, I thought I’d try the FMCs between the WiFi Router and the ER’s. Initially each FMC was powered by a Jameco 5V linear (not SMPS) regulated wall-wart with some Q&D mods (upgraded diodes, caps, transformer ringing snubber, and an AC filter cap). I find this a good, low-cost DIY route to improving on almost AND SMPS for network HW when used within the 1A max of the wall-warts.

 

I was pretty blown away by the sonic improvements! It was like the focus knob was tuned in better with a greater effect at the frequency extremes… from mid-bass down and upper-mids up. WOAH! Nice. I expected some change, but nothing of this magnitude.

 

I played around with different power supply options and ended up with adding a 325F Ultracap pair at the output of the 5V supply to the output side FMC  (Delock) and using a 12V Jameco linear regulated wall-wart (modified as above with the output voltage reset to 9V) into a 5V 6||LT3045 board from MPAudio.net on the input side FMC (TrendNet).

 

Overall changes from adding the optical network link into my control connection, while not as large as the initial addition the ERs, was similar in effect. Backgrounds are blacker and quieter, details are more defined and pop with dynamics, apparent music density and complexity increased, emotiveness is enhanced, and the music becomes an even more compelling listen.

 

AND that wireless router is ONLY used for control signals and not involved in the connection from the music server. Interesting!

 

Finally I played with Ethernet cables. I am a heretic on cables from my ERs to my endpoints. When I first installed the ERs, after some experimentation with what I had around and trying some of the trendy low-cost cables, I settled on a Baaske Ethernet filter, the cable that came with it (which has a ferrite core built onto the cable), and a very short 6” patch cable from

 

Amazon:https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OJYZMFG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

which bettered some other inexpensive yet trendy ones in that length to my ears into the ER. In my setups, to my ears, and with my listening bias, that combo produced the most realistic sound, even though everyone else who mentioned having an Ethernet filter before the ER took theirs out.

 

I duplicated that combo from the Delock FMC to the ER. Nothing I tried sounded  better and I left it as I started.

 

I have more power options to try and other configurations, including those mentioned above along with duplicating the FMC string between the Zotac music server and the ER. BUT I am ECSTATIC with what I’ve gotten so far, with no expenditure of $$$, just repurposing some gear I had sitting around.

 

My moral is… Whatever you have waiting in the wings, give it a try. It may be a wild success!

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. I am not a cable scoffer, I am VERY picky about what cables and wires I use. I know I can buy some fabulous Ethernet cables and I have no quibble with what people report, but just not going to spend $$$ there. Just chosing where to spend my upgrade $$$. 

 

Responding to @chungjh 's post earlier today in the '...Listening Impressions' thread.

 

While not my router, I mentioned in my post above that I've been playing with various power supply options on the FMCs I added. As I mentioned, I was unprepared for the improvement adding them, to my ears and in my setups, almost as large of an improvement as I got with adding the ER and a tweak power supply initially (for more info on what I use for my ER supply, see the first post in this thread).

 

I've played with some very low-cost DIY supplies on the FMCs. So far, on the output-side modified Delock FMC, my favorite is a modified Jameco 5V linear-regulated wall wart... about $11 USD with about $20-$25 USD of parts... feeding a 325F Ultracap pair.

 

On the input-side Trendnet, I use another of these 5V modified Jameco wall warts, but take the raw 9V pre-regulated voltage and feed it into a 5V 6||LT3045 board from MPAudio.net (a good alternate would be 2 of these 3||LT3045 boards set to 5V https://www.ldovr.com/product-p/lt3045-1a5.htm... an interesting variation might be to try 2 of these boards in series, one set to 7V and the final to 5V). This also feeds a an Ultracap pair, this time a pair of the monster-sized 3400F units available from a Chinese vendor from EBay. For the Ultracap pairs, you can use the 5V UcConditioner boards from Ian Canada on DIYAudio.com in this thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/207438-ian-asynchronous-i2s-pdif-fifo-kit-buy.html. His modules simplify the use of these UC Pairs by automatically managing initial charging, power-on, and power-off shutdown. 

 

I still have other options to try, but these are the best so far. How do they compare to the high-priced spread? Dunno, I have none of Paul's or the Farad units here, though I have a healthy respect for and admiration of both.

 

But I can say these supplies for not much $$$ if you are DIY-handy or have friends who can do that for you are not too far off the tweaky and fairly expensive setup I use to power my ERs.

 

I do admit I am surprised at how audible these power supplies are upstream of the ER, but I am not complaining, I love the sonics I'm getting.

 

YMMV.

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. Jameco linear-regulated wall-wart supply mods include upgraded pre/post regulator caps, Schottky rectifier diodes, John Swenson's transformer ringing snubber circuit, and a 2uF polyprop AC filter cap. If you are not in the US or Canada, I suspect you can find similar units in your home country for your local AC voltage. 

[chungjh]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Yes, sir. Spectrum for Internet/WiFi things in the house and cable TV.
 

Greenlight fiber optic for audio...as of tomorrow.

 

I'll have to tweak the WiFi channels for best results, I suppose. I am not sure if I can or need to turn off ports in the new/second router to improve performance. 

Report back once you have the new system going. If there is a NOTICEABLE improvement, not just different, I may go for a separate optic line into the house. I am curious how a second ISP fiber line would enter your house. Do they dig another line into your house?

[chungjh]

5 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

A consensus probably depends on how many, and who replies.
 

I do not have two eReGens, I have one. I have had fiber in my system for many months, in various configurations: 10Gtek FMCs, eRG, Sonore OM, two Ciscos, PF Buffalo. 
 

Regardless of the configuration, IMO fiber is a net-plus in SQ in my system.
 

I just 15 minutes ago pulled a Corning run the ISP gave me so when they come tomorrow for a new fiber service, they breech the structure, hang their ONT inside, plug and play.
 

And I get the cable run where and how I want it. Glad to do the work for them.

 

I will then have a dedicated, audio only, fiber service. That's how much I like fiber. I'll keep the cable ISP for TV and home/phone stuff.

Have you ever compared the SQ of a stored music vs streamed in your system? This may indicate whether it is worth the cost/trouble of upgrading to the fiber/LPS for modem or router.

[R1200CL]

8 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

Yes, sir. Spectrum for Internet/WiFi things in the house and cable TV.

I suppose both has a monthly cost. If you don’t know, you can just use a good DHCP server / firewall and from one ISP split the traffic into two subnets. It’s exactly same effect. 
 

Depending how you use your WiFi or communicate with your music, you will now need two Wi-Fi systems or hardwired network in your house, while with other solutions you can control access by setting up rules.

You may not even need two subnets, and maybe only a managed switch will do the job and isolating traffic properly. 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

Yes, I am aware of the above info re: switches, rules, vlans, etc. I am adding a second service instead. 
 

Re: install, ISP installs per usual. Fiber is just this week connecting to this neighborhood. Digging was completed over the past month. 

[Ricardo007]

ETHERREGENs and ENTREQ grounding boxes

 

two possibilities are offered:

- on A side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable on an unused RJ45 port connected to an Entreq ground box

- on B side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable connecting an Entreq grounding box

 

Any experience there to share?

[russellbobby]

Wondered if I could get a few comments about a possible quick and painless upgrade.

currently run Ethernet from a Xfinity Cable modem to EtherRegen>SoTm> Cary DMS 600 Streamer/dac.  Easy and clean as it gets. I built a room so dedicated power etc. Room is double drywall w/ green glue etc. dead quiet. 27x16x10 angled front walls , soffits, coffered ceilings.  Great sounding room  swarm sub system. Any little change can be appreciated 

Maybe thinking of adding a LPS to the EtherRegan or maybe adding some fiber in the chain. Or what a bout a LPS  for the Modem/router?
The system is really humming and everything works the way it should but I just can’t leave well enough alone
Thanks for any input. 

Russ

 

 

[Jud]

4 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

ETHERREGENs and ENTREQ grounding boxes

 

two possibilities are offered:

- on A side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable on an unused RJ45 port connected to an Entreq ground box

- on B side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable connecting an Entreq grounding box

 

Any experience there to share?

IIRC, John Swenson and many others say grounding boxes don’t/can’t work, so perhaps no side and save your money is best. But up to you, of course.

[MartinT]

5 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

ETHERREGENs and ENTREQ grounding boxes

 

two possibilities are offered:

- on A side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable on an unused RJ45 port connected to an Entreq ground box

- on B side, plugging an entreq eartha grounding cable connecting an Entreq grounding box

 

Any experience there to share?

 

Why not connect it to the ground terminal, as I have with my Black Ravioli Eflos grounding box?

[PYP]

5 hours ago, russellbobby said:

Maybe thinking of adding a LPS to the EtherRegan or maybe adding some fiber in the chain. Or what a bout a LPS  for the Modem/router?

In my system, an LPS for the eR and fiber improved the SQ.  Preference probably depends upon your setup and budget.  Ultimately, if you have the funds, implementing both over time will be beneficial.  I've only read positive reviews of adding an LPS and fiber, so there doesn't seem to be a downside.  

[JohnSwenson]

11 hours ago, Jud said:

IIRC, John Swenson and many others say grounding boxes don’t/can’t work, so perhaps no side and save your money is best. But up to you, of course.

The Entreq type boxes are band-aids for leakage problems, properly setting up an ER and power supplies is a real solution. You definitely do NOT want to use both together.

 

They are in fact antennas, most of the signal is actually picking up line frequency (50/60Hz) which if winds up being out of phase with your leakage will tend to cancel out some of the leakage. Most of the complexities in the boxes wind up filtering out the RF stuff. This type of canceling is not guaranteed, it is very system specific. If you have a system using these and you have wound up tuning so you DO get this cancellation (remember this is done by deliberately injecting line frequency noise into the system!), adding an ER will just make things worse because now the injected noise has nothing to cancel out with.

 

There are other types of boxes which actually feed the safety ground around in a very effective way, these are perfectly fine to use with an ER.

 

John S.

[GMG]

5 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The Entreq type boxes are band-aids for leakage problems, properly setting up an ER and power supplies is a real solution. You definitely do NOT want to use both together.

 

They are in fact antennas, most of the signal is actually picking up line frequency (50/60Hz) which if winds up being out of phase with your leakage will tend to cancel out some of the leakage. Most of the complexities in the boxes wind up filtering out the RF stuff. This type of canceling is not guaranteed, it is very system specific. If you have a system using these and you have wound up tuning so you DO get this cancellation (remember this is done by deliberately injecting line frequency noise into the system!), adding an ER will just make things worse because now the injected noise has nothing to cancel out with.

 

There are other types of boxes which actually feed the safety ground around in a very effective way, these are perfectly fine to use with an ER.

 

John S.

Very interesting John 

can you give an example for those“other types of boxes”

[JohnSwenson]

11 hours ago, GMG said:

Very interesting John 

can you give an example for those“other types of boxes”

I don't remember any of the names, I don't have them myself but have seen people here using them. They are NOT necessary for proper operation of an ER, but they don't hurt it either.

 

John S.

[dbastin]

Hi, 

Sorry if this has already been addressed earlier, I don't have time to read 14 pages and 1400 posts of this thread.  So feel free to redirect me to where it has been addressed.

 

I have been experimenting with EtherRegen as an isolator only (not using the switch to connect a number of devices) and other similar isolators.  Like some have experienced daisy chaining ERs and other switches, I have experienced considerable sound quality when daisy chaining ER and these other isolators. 

 

My query is, why is this the case?  Is it reducing phase noise, jitter?

 

Would an external clock give an equivalent result?

 

Thanks

[PYP]

6 hours ago, dbastin said:

Hi, 

Sorry if this has already been addressed earlier, I don't have time to read 14 pages and 1400 posts of this thread.  So feel free to redirect me to where it has been addressed.

 

I have been experimenting with EtherRegen as an isolator only (not using the switch to connect a number of devices) and other similar isolators.  Like some have experienced daisy chaining ERs and other switches, I have experienced considerable sound quality when daisy chaining ER and these other isolators. 

 

My query is, why is this the case?  Is it reducing phase noise, jitter?

 

Would an external clock give an equivalent result?

 

Thanks

start here:  https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-1036787

 

 

[chungjh]

7 hours ago, PYP said:

start here:  https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/uptone-audio-etherregen-review-and-comparison-r887/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-1036787

 

When you say daisy chaining improved SQ substantially, how are you connecting the ERs?

 

 

[PYP]

3 minutes ago, chungjh said:

When you say daisy chaining improved SQ substantially, how are you connecting the ERs?

 

I'm not sure if you are addressing me.  I provided the link but didn't write the review.   The charts show the various connections between devices.  

[chungjh]

14 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

I'm not sure if you are addressing me.  I provided the link but didn't write the review.   The charts show the various connections between devices.  

PYP, I read that link and it seems to say that the second ER has only a marginal effect. Have you tried it yourself or are you infering?

[PYP]

1 hour ago, chungjh said:

PYP, I read that link and it seems to say that the second ER has only a marginal effect. Have you tried it yourself or are you infering?

The comments I've read from folks who use a second eR range from "it's nice" to "bigger improvement than adding the first."  Of course, the setups are very different and most probably cannot be generalized.    I haven't added a second eR myself (yet).  

[dbastin]

Hi again,

 

Firstly, let's remember the system context is quite important.  I note @PYPuses Mola Mola, and I know of another Mola Mola owner whose experience is that changes to ethernet makes little difference.  He has ER > Antipodes CX > ethernet > Makua (endpoint).  This is probably rare.

 

In my case, it has evolved to become elaborate (unfortunately also untidy and costly) as follows:

 

ISP (fibre) connection box > Cat 5e > Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X > Afterdark LAN > Antipodes EX > Wireworld Platinum > ER > Wireworld Platinum > Gigafoilv4 > JCAT Signature Gold > Gigafoilv4 > Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Ref > Devialet Pro 220 (endpoint).

 

All high quality LPSs, AC power cords.  There's more to it, but that is the backbone.

 

I has discarded a few ethernet cables too. Needless to say the SR Atmos X Ref and JCAT provide a considerable improvement on their own.  I was very impressed with them even before ER was installed.  Little did I know ... what I thought was impressive them was the tip of the iceberg, and in hindsight is a fraction of the SQ I now have gained just from ethernet improvements.

 

I got Gigafoilv4 at used cost simply to compare it to ER as isolators only.  They're both excellent, and I presently prefer Gigafoil by a small margin, but an external clock, better LPS and grounding may give ER an edge if/when implemented.

 

As the Antipodes EX has an inbuilt switch with very low noise, I effectively have 4 devices isolating/reclocking daisy chained between the server and renderer.  Once inside the Devialet, timing is governed by a single reference clock and Roon RAAT 'pull' protocol.

 

I added each ER/Gigafoil upstream of EX and router, which provided improvements, but greatest improvement is the current arrangement.  From memory, each addition was incrementally less improvement.

 

The cost of cables and LPSs is racking up!

 

Hence I was hoping the Uptone guys might be able to explain why.

 

I had read the review mentioned above some time ago, and noted the use of external clock.  At the time I felt that expense was extreme ... but now with all my incremental expense I am having 2nd thoughts.

 

Its multiple isolators (incl cables, LPSs etc)  -v- external clock

 

Cheers