The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[HumanMedia]

21 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

In the EtherRegen white paper, John had discussed "threshold jitter".  I wonder if noise on the ground plane might impact SFP performance on consumer FMCs, where as the opticalModule (and ER) are designed to handle this correctly.

 

 

I think I remember reading in one of the OpticalRendu threads, that John said something about implementing improvements to the way SFP noise was handled (in the OpticalRendu). Its a vague memory and it might have even been before the etherRegen was released so it may already be in the etherRegen.

 

In rereading some of the older posts about optical connections there were quite a few people saying that the sound was a little harsh until they added optical attenuators. However people also reported that the PlanetTech SFP didn't need them.

 

I have been talking to an optical networking guy, who does solely optical networking for a living and he had this to say. He said that these days to make things simpler parts wise they only do single mode installations even for short runs, and use attenuators.  He uses a meter to take readings then calculates which value attenuator to use. For 20km strength and greater they always use attenuators. In the absence of a signal strength reading he can also do calculations from the spec sheet to give a really rough approximate of what attenuator to use. For the PlanetTech he said that you probably wouldnt get into a situation where you could burn the receivers out but still recommended a 5db attenuator as a starting point.

 

Maybe this is it? I know someone - was it you kennyb123?, mentioned that attenuators on the PlanetTech dulled the sound. Do you still feel this way? have you revisited attenuators? And could dulling actually be the removal of artificial 'sharpness'?

 

 

 

 

[skatbelt]

43 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

 

I think I remember reading in one of the OpticalRendu threads, that John said something about implementing improvements to the way SFP noise was handled (in the OpticalRendu). Its a vague memory and it might have even been before the etherRegen was released so it may already be in the etherRegen.

 

In rereading some of the older posts about optical connections there were quite a few people saying that the sound was a little harsh until they added optical attenuators. However people also reported that the PlanetTech SFP didn't need them.

 

I have been talking to an optical networking guy, who does solely optical networking for a living and he had this to say. He said that these days to make things simpler parts wise they only do single mode installations even for short runs, and use attenuators.  He uses a meter to take readings then calculates which value attenuator to use. For 20km strength and greater they always use attenuators. In the absence of a signal strength reading he can also do calculations from the spec sheet to give a really rough approximate of what attenuator to use. For the PlanetTech he said that you probably wouldnt get into a situation where you could burn the receivers out but still recommended a 5db attenuator as a starting point.

 

Maybe this is it? I know someone - was it you kennyb123?, mentioned that attenuators on the PlanetTech dulled the sound. Do you still feel this way? have you revisited attenuators? And could dulling actually be the removal of artificial 'sharpness'?

 

 

 

 

 

Not @kennyb123 but I am happy to experiment with attenuators on the PlanetTech's. Just out of curiosity about the results.

 

To throw in a few other perspectives: when going from copper to fiber with opticalModule + PlanetTech's in my system and to my ears SQ became less harsh and edgy and more natural. To a marginal extent of course. It was the first time I felt no need for the HF filter active on my Chord DAVE and the first time that I couldn't distinguish between streaming audio and locally stored files within Roon. My Roon server + DAS is directly connected to the EtherREGEN a-side, so by-passing the fiber path for playback.

[HumanMedia]

2 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

To throw in a few other perspectives: when going from copper to fiber with opticalModule + PlanetTech's in my system and to my ears SQ became less harsh and edgy and more natural. 

 

Thats exactly what I was expecting based on multiple experiences by others. But Im experiencing the exact opposite.

It's a real head scratcher.

 

However everyone else seem to be using a longer fibre cable than I am, usually 5-10m. But does this really matter for devices that are designed to go 20km? What is a couple of meters? Or my SFPs are a new model that are different? or they change considerably in burn-in?

 

Multiple people report the opticalModule changing with burn-in, but mine has been plugged in for two weeks (one week longer than the SFPs). But is it actually the SFP burning in? most probably on the receive end plugged into the EtherRegen?

 

I have put the optical connection back in the system with some hefty DSD256 albums on repeat to see if more burn-in helps. I will also track down some attenuators but this will take at least two weeks to arrive locally. But if anyone else can try them in the meantime I would love to know if they make any difference.

[octaviars]

30 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

However everyone else seem to be using a longer fibre cable than I am, usually 5-10m. But does this really matter for devices that are designed to go 20km? What is a couple of meters?

 

This is a spec on a single mode fiber.

 

Maximum Attenuation: <0.35dB/km (1310nm)

 

So 10m will give 0,0035dB attenuation and that is nothing, so adding a bunch of cable and think you atteunate the signal that is not going to work.

 

[PYP]

49 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

Multiple people report the opticalModule changing with burn-in, but mine has been plugged in for two weeks (one week longer than the SFPs).

I never had harsh highs, but it took a month for the highs to sound balanced/integrated with the mids/lows.  Of course, there is no typical system and YMWV.   My new gear always seems to take a long time to settle in.  

[octaviars]

This might be a bit system depending also where the fiber is in the mix.

 

In my system the fiber just have high activity when I start playback on a song in Qobuz , when Roon has buffered it the activity on the fiber ports are really low (easy to monitor in the EdgeRouter). 

So during playback the stream in my system goes from NUC to eR A-side to B-side and then to my dcs Network bridge and only over copper cables.

After a couple of seconds when I start a new song I can disconnect the SFP in my eR and the song will still finish.

[TwinPeak]

A month ago I changed my network setup, integrating a Cisco 2960 (second hand) into the mix. After multiple attempts, I finally succeeded to hardware reset the Cisco so that the high speed ports (RJ45 + SFP) got activated. I got a set of Cisco compatible SFP's form eBay and a 1 meter duplex multimode optical fibre. I connected Mac Mini and NAS disk to Cisco's 100 mbps ports and optical to EtherREGEN SFP port. Internet is provided by a long stretch of Supra Cat8 cable coming from my Ubiquiti X-router. Previously Mac Mini, NAS disk and internet was connected to EtherREGEN's A-side. I also experimented with SFP and optical between Ubiquiti X-router and EtherREGEN, but to me - the Cisco SFP connection sounded even better.

After a week letting the new combination settle, this network setup was a game changer! Better dynamics, a huge soundstage, improved lower midrange and bass and a slight increase in volume (!?). The single optical (SFP) connection to eR A-side has also reduced EtherREGEN's surface temperature during playback, from 40+ degrees celsius to 30+ degrees celsius. ER's B-side is connected to Sonore UltraRendu with a 0.5m Sablon ethernet cable.

:// Enclosed is a PDF with my current setup.

My SetUp 2020-v11.pdf

[Heckyman]

...I did find the sound with fibre more natural when the fibre (and EtherREGEN) was further upstream. But still I was happy to come back to copper. Obviously my optical network set ups weren't optimal, but what I heard didn't inspire me to start "transceiver rolling" or drop more money on optical modules/renderers (and the PS's for them).

 

I suppose the length of cable runs (and the quality of such) might be a factor too, my entire wired system is taken care of in 1-2m lengths of LinkUp Cat8.

Also my LMS/HQPlayer server/NAS box and all other internet devices are isolated via WiFi.

[HumanMedia]

7 hours ago, PYP said:

I never had harsh highs, but it took a month for the highs to sound balanced/integrated with the mids/lows.  Of course, there is no typical system and YMWV.   My new gear always seems to take a long time to settle in.  

Even though I also experience a burn-in or settling-in with most stuff in the audio chain, when I add a new type of component or device, for some reason I assume there won’t be any and then I am surprised when there is. Even the etherRegen took a good 250 hours before the highs sounded natural to me.
 

I guess SFP could be the same and will definitely give them more time.

[kennyb123]

19 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

 

Maybe this is it? I know someone - was it you kennyb123?, mentioned that attenuators on the PlanetTech dulled the sound. Do you still feel this way? have you revisited attenuators? And could dulling actually be the removal of artificial 'sharpness'?

 

 

Yup that was me who reported that I didn't like what attenuators did to the sound of those SFPs.   I've moved on to Finisar SFPs as I found these even more neutral that the Planet Tech SFPs.  

 

There are two different models of Finisar SFPs that some here have preferred.  The FTLF1324P2BTL was one that Emile of Taiko had recommended for use with the ER.  It's no longer in production but can be found on eBay.  The current version of that is the FTLF1318P3BT, which @auricgoldfingerpreferred.  I recently picked up a pair of these on eBay and have been using them in place of the FTLF1324P2BTL.  I have yet to take the time to compare the two, but I also haven't heard anything that struck me as different between the two.   It will take some effort to tease out differences.  Maybe I can try to finally get around to tackling that this week.

[HeeBroG]

22 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

Even though I also experience a burn-in or settling-in with most stuff in the audio chain, when I add a new type of component or device, for some reason I assume there won’t be any and then I am surprised when there is. Even the etherRegen took a good 250 hours before the highs sounded natural to me.
 

I guess SFP could be the same and will definitely give them more time.

I might have missed it but how are you powering the oM?

 

[HumanMedia]

19 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

I might have missed it but how are you powering the oM?

 

CI Audio 2.A 5V supply.

 

Listening to the system today and there is a noticeable change in the high end. At 7 days no change, now at 10 days and starting to change. Will report back in a couple of days.

[HumanMedia]

15 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Yup that was me who reported that I didn't like what attenuators did to the sound of those SFPs.   I've moved on to Finisar SFPs as I found these even more neutral that the Planet Tech SFPs.  

 

There are two different models of Finisar SFPs that some here have preferred.  The FTLF1324P2BTL was one that Emile of Taiko had recommended for use with the ER.  It's no longer in production but can be found on eBay.  The current version of that is the FTLF1318P3BT, which @auricgoldfingerpreferred.  I recently picked up a pair of these on eBay and have been using them in place of the FTLF1324P2BTL.  I have yet to take the time to compare the two, but I also haven't heard anything that struck me as different between the two.   It will take some effort to tease out differences.  Maybe I can try to finally get around to tackling that this week.

Very interesting, those two models are also lower range products (4km -10km). Lower range, lower power, lower noise?

Looking forward to hearing your impressions of them especially compared to the PlanetTechs and other SFPs.

 

BTW after 10 days now the PlanetTechs are sounding different...

[hemflaw]

Posting here in case anyone else has experienced something similar: 

 

I got one of the early-ish shipping EtherRegens. Have used with no problem with the original supplies.

 

Baseline setup: consumer router > in-wall CAT7 to wall jack > bluejeans ethernet cable > ER (factory power brick) dirty side > ER clean side > audioquest Cinnamon ethernet > Antipodes EX > USB > Antipodes P2 reclocker > HDMI > DAC > analog components.....

 

In the most recent working setup, the ER factory power brick was connected with a Van den Hul MainsStream, connected to a PS Audio P5 regenerator. The Antipodes and other stuff is also connected to the PS Audio P5, all of which shouldn't matter here.

 

 

 

PROBLEM: A month or so ago I got a used Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS1.2. It came with the original wall wart and an up-spec cable ('Ghent GAC4 Gotham JSSG360 DC lead'). As with the ER factory power supply, I connected the LPS 1.2 with a Van den Hul MainsStream, plugged into a PS Audio P5 regenerator.

 

I did the research and set the voltage to 12. (If this is wrong then I am definitely misreading whatever posts I found in the EtherRegen thread)

 

Connecting it up, all the lights behave as you'd expect, the LPS goes from red to green. All the lights come on on the EtherRegen, as normal.

 

I get ethernet link and traffic lights on the EtherRegen clean and dirty side.

 

But with the new power supply in (and not other changes to the config described above) I simply cannot access (via file sharing, or Roon, or ping) my Antipodes EX. I tried lots of rebooting, re-connecting etc., pain I won't recount here. Throughout the troubleshooting, the power cycle lots on the LPS and the power and ethernet lights on the ER worked as expected, but I got no connectivity.

 

Troubleshooting performed:

- When I remove the ER entirely and connect ethernet from my in-wall jack direct to the Antipodes EX it works immediately. 

- When I replace the standard ER power supply, the ER lights come on as expected, and I have connectivity within 30 seconds or less.

 

 

Any help appreciated ... I can't really go back to the guy I bought it from as the LPS appears to work, but... things aren't working.

[Theobetley]

Can an original ER owner get the new firmware update?

[JohnSwenson]

50 minutes ago, hemflaw said:

Posting here in case anyone else has experienced something similar: 

 

I got one of the early-ish shipping EtherRegens. Have used with no problem with the original supplies.

 

Baseline setup: consumer router > in-wall CAT7 to wall jack > bluejeans ethernet cable > ER (factory power brick) dirty side > ER clean side > audioquest Cinnamon ethernet > Antipodes EX > USB > Antipodes P2 reclocker > HDMI > DAC > analog components.....

 

In the most recent working setup, the ER factory power brick was connected with a Van den Hul MainsStream, connected to a PS Audio P5 regenerator. The Antipodes and other stuff is also connected to the PS Audio P5, all of which shouldn't matter here.

 

 

 

PROBLEM: A month or so ago I got a used Uptone Audio UltraCap LPS1.2. It came with the original wall wart and an up-spec cable ('Ghent GAC4 Gotham JSSG360 DC lead'). As with the ER factory power supply, I connected the LPS 1.2 with a Van den Hul MainsStream, plugged into a PS Audio P5 regenerator.

 

I did the research and set the voltage to 12. (If this is wrong then I am definitely misreading whatever posts I found in the EtherRegen thread)

 

Connecting it up, all the lights behave as you'd expect, the LPS goes from red to green. All the lights come on on the EtherRegen, as normal.

 

I get ethernet link and traffic lights on the EtherRegen clean and dirty side.

 

But with the new power supply in (and not other changes to the config described above) I simply cannot access (via file sharing, or Roon, or ping) my Antipodes EX. I tried lots of rebooting, re-connecting etc., pain I won't recount here. Throughout the troubleshooting, the power cycle lots on the LPS and the power and ethernet lights on the ER worked as expected, but I got no connectivity.

 

Troubleshooting performed:

- When I remove the ER entirely and connect ethernet from my in-wall jack direct to the Antipodes EX it works immediately. 

- When I replace the standard ER power supply, the ER lights come on as expected, and I have connectivity within 30 seconds or less.

 

 

Any help appreciated ... I can't really go back to the guy I bought it from as the LPS appears to work, but... things aren't working.

You are correct, 12V should be the optimal voltage from LPS-1.2 to ER. 9V should also work, did you try that?

 

One specific difference is the SMPS that comes with the ER has the negative output connected to the safety ground of the AC mains plug, the LPS-1.2 output is isolated from the safety ground. There is a ground screw on the ER which can be used to connect a safety ground if you have an issue with this. Although if your system does not work AT ALL, and this fixes it then you have some other issue in your system which you might want to track down. (usually related to stuff done on USB which prevents proper ground connection, so the only path is safety ground, which is not necessarily the best thing to do)

 

To use the ground screw you need a "ground plug" which looks like a regular mains plug, but just has one wire coming out which is connected to the safety ground pin. The end of this wires gets wrapped around the ground screw. Amazon has some without the wire but has a banana jack, you will then need a banana plug to spade wire (Amazon has these under turntable ground wire).

 

Give this a try and see if this fixes the problem.

 

John S.

[JohnSwenson]

11 minutes ago, Theobetley said:

Can an original ER owner get the new firmware update?

Go to the UpTone website, then go to the Blog section. The top post is about the EtherREGEN and contains a link to the firmware update zip file. The instructions for updating and actual firmware file are in the zip. This is only necessary for ERs delivered in November of 2019.

 

John S.

[hemflaw]

I received mine in April 2020. So I should not need the firmware update. Correct? 

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, hemflaw said:

I received mine in April 2020. So I should not need the firmware update. Correct? 

That is correct.  Only the very first EtherREGENs—shipped in November 2019—benefit from being flashed with the newer firmware code.  Every unit, from December onward, already has that same newer code.

And just for the sake of completeness, there have been zero hardware changes to the EtherREGEN over its entire production so far. 2,000 units and counting... 

[crion]

On 10/9/2020 at 6:32 PM, chungjh said:

Do we need a costly ground wire like CGS10? How is it better than just using a copper wire?

 

Also, doesn't the grounding wire cause ground looping?

 

Well, if you are a critical listener and you did get a boost from using a 10 gauge ground wire to ER then you will enjoy Shunyatas range of CGC ground cables to the ER. The Sigma CGC has arrived and the fun thing is that it was a big difference up from the CGS10 ground wire.

Shunyata Sigma CGC wire is Cu outer shell with an Ag central core just like Shunyatas newer v2 reference power cables.

[HumanMedia]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:26 PM, HumanMedia said:

Very interesting, those two models are also lower range products (4km -10km). Lower range, lower power, lower noise?

Looking forward to hearing your impressions of them especially compared to the PlanetTechs and other SFPs.

 

BTW after 10 days now the PlanetTechs are sounding different...

Now at around 15 days burn in of the PlanetTech SFP. Yes SFP really do need a good burn in. They have improved considerably. The high end metallic ansound has gone and the entire midrange has a wonderful clarity. The only real negative is a slightly accentuated lower treble. It sounds clean but just a bit too elevated in the upper midrange and lower treble.

 

Quoting Chris from the ‘novel way of...’ thread who has tried ‘many dozens’ of SFP “I was searching for many months and testing extensive a lot of SFPs and changes between them were very big .Each had a strong character in some aspects but was lacking in the others.”

 

Now the use of commercial networking SFP seems to me to be the weakness of using optical connections in audio systems. We have quality low noise, reclocked switches with SFP connections, etherRegens, opticalRendus and opticalModules. All wonderful BUT then we put noisy commercial grade SFPs right inside them next to all of that low noise precisely clocked circuitry.

 

Which got me thinking, dreaming actually, of a company who plugs this Achilles heel and creates an audio-grade low noise SFP to compliment the rest of our quality networking chain. Just as I was waking from this dream of unboxing such a device, I noticed that the logo on the box was “UpTone Audio”. @Superdad was this a dream, or a vision of the near future? Please tell me it was true? An audio quality UpTone Audio SFP? Please?

[GMG]

Hope it's OK to mix in some JCat here

 

JCat has a new network card coming out next month

https://jcat.eu/product/net-card-xe-high-end-hifi-network-card/

 

Has anyone given some thought to weather such a card would make a difference when using an ER?

Computer-->JCAT new card-->ER A side--> ER B side--> network player

 

 

[skatbelt]

57 minutes ago, GMG said:

Hope it's OK to mix in some JCat here

 

JCat has a new network card coming out next month

https://jcat.eu/product/net-card-xe-high-end-hifi-network-card/

 

Has anyone given some thought to weather such a card would make a difference when using an ER?

Computer-->JCAT new card-->ER A side--> ER B side--> network player

 

 

 

My guess is that it will potentially eliminate noise coming from your computer (and the network card itself), despite of the isolation measures already taken on the JCAT card (transformers and external PSU). Assuming you can meet the moat related setup requirements of the ER and (preferably) power it with a high quality power supply.

[Duke40]

On 12/31/2019 at 7:47 PM, JohnSwenson said:

One very important thing to understand is that the IR emission from a black surface is vastly greater than from a bare metal surface, so putting a bare metal heatsink on top of an ER will actually increase the  temperature of the case because you are almost stopping the IR emission. If you DO use a heatsink make sure it is black!

 

This brings up another interesting way to cool the thing, put a black thick aluminum plate under the ER, the bottom will transfer a lot of heat to the plate through IR, which then spreads out through the plate into the environment. You could also make that into a nice anti vibration platform.

 

 

I have a number of 10mm thick Aluminium plates it was bare metal, and I remembered this post you made last year, so I painted them black on the weekend.

 

Have noticed both of my ER temperature drop considerably.

 

As a test tonight, I left one right side up with the rubber feet still attached, the other upside down (to see if a closer, direct contact would further reduce the temperature. Oh, by the way, the aluminium plates still have several markings & swirls underneath to help prevent standing waves (from a post you made several years ago on another AS thread regarding vibration/resonance control). Please excuse the mess, my network is undergoing several changes.

 

[Duke40]

On 10/8/2020 at 6:58 AM, JohnSwenson said:

This combination does a very effective job of blocking seismic waves from reaching the crystals in the oscillators. As far as I have been able to tell seismic waves (very low frequency waves in the ground, caused by ground heating and cooling and nearby trucks or trains) are one of the biggest contributors towards oscillator output contamination. These temperature change induced seismic waves are one of the reasons a lot of people like listening in the middle of the night, the ground temperature has stabilized thus produces much less intense seismic waves.

 

Unfortunately there is a correlation that the oscillators with the lowest phase noise also have the highest sensitivity to seismic waves, so measures like these can become quite important for very high quality digital systems.

 

A few words on the aluminum slab. The 1/2" thick aluminum plate has several very good properties one one bad property.

 

The good:

thick aluminum is a good absorber of higher frequency vibrations. It is good shielding both for electrical waves AND magnetic waves (thin aluminum sheets do not shield well from magnetic fields, but thick ones do). At 1/2" it is very rigid so provides a good base for dealing with the low frequency seismic waves. Sheet metal (particularly the case of most electronics) bends at these low frequencies significantly decreasing the effectiveness of the roller bearing

 

The bad:

thick aluminum "rings" like crazy. This after all is how wind chimes work. It turns out the ringing is caused by surface acoustic waves forming standing waves on the surface of the aluminum. Fortunately this can be damped out by things touching the surface, thus scattering the patterns and preventing standing waves. On the bottom this is the balls through the mirrors, for the top just putting your equipment on the top disturbs the waves enough to prevent the standing waves.

 

Apart from painting the Aluminium plates black (I use them as part of my "anti vibration/heat absorbing/shielding" platforms, I placed an IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stand underneath the ALU plate. The Aluminium no longer rings like crazy. 

 

The top shelf of my network rack, which holds my ERs is also isolated from the rack by using 3 Townshend Audio Seismic Pods, which do a pretty good job of dealing with the seismic wave issue. I'm kind of using the Pods in a similar manner to your use of the roller bearings.

 

I'm doing a bit of experimenting at the moment, though eventually I need to clean up the cables once I have settled on a final support system for both of my ER's, as I until I take care of cable dressing, I may be causing some "mechanical shorts", reducing the effectiveness of the "anti vibration/heat absorbing/shielding" platforms.

 

Three things I have noticed in my testing over last few weeks (for platform under my ERs):

1)  Black. Painting the Aluminium black changed the temperature of the ERs from hot, to just warm.

2) PRAT. Placing the IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stand under the Aluminium plate got rid of the Aluminium from ringing, and Pace, Rhythm and Timing improved.

3) Raised Soundstage, more articulate bass (and the other usual stuff that the Townshend Audio Seismic Pods bring benefits for). I was thinking of the line you wrote "Unfortunately there is a correlation that the oscillators with the lowest phase noise also have the highest sensitivity to seismic waves, so measures like these can become quite important for very high quality digital systems.", and wanted to provide an ideal environment for the ERs by taking care of seismic issue, so used the Pods.

 

Just my thoughts, Townshend Audio Seismic Pods do a better job in the vertical plane, IsoAcoustics do a great job especially in the lateral plane, the use of Aluminium (which no longer rings due to IsoAcoustics), and then painting the Aluminium black, all brought beneficial changes. I think it has a special synergy.

 

For underneath my JS-2, I tried Black 10mm Aluminium plate on top of an IsoAcoustics stand, did not notice any real change. Its the ERs which like really benefited from the support system described above.