The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[HumanMedia]

8 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

 

Thanks for this. So despite the optical connection being on the same physical side as the B-Side output, it is electrically actually on the A-Side also? So if I use optical in, I keep my Ethernet output plugged into the B-side? (sorry if this was in the manual)

So SFP port IS on A-Side physically AND electrically as well.

[octaviars]

6 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

So SFP port IS on A-Side physically AND electrically as well.

 

Yes. The power in is on the A-side so to say and powers the stuff inside that is connected to the 4 RJ45 and SFP port then there is a DC-DC converter with low capacitance that supplyes the B-side with power so the B-side is isolated both on the data and power from the 5 connections on the A-side.

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

Having received my ER yesterday, I left it running overnight.
This morning I find it "very hot". It is quite confusing.

The ER is placed in an open place, alone.

I think I read that this hot thing is normal, but I didn't think it was so hot. By comparison, my Switch Sotm is cold.
Can we reassure him on this point? . The case is the heat-sink?

It is therefore advisable to always leave on

Yes it's fine! They're countless posts about this. Mine is very hot also. Never had any issues. 

[PYP]

7 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

Having received my ER yesterday, I left it running overnight.
This morning I find it "very hot". It is quite confusing.

The ER is placed in an open place, alone.

I think I read that this hot thing is normal, but I didn't think it was so hot. By comparison, my Switch Sotm is cold.
Can we reassure him on this point? . The case is the heat-sink?

It is therefore advisable to always leave on

 

It is OK.  It does run quite hot, even with good ventilation.  You might try placing it on its side or elevating it.  Some folks have added a heat sink and that helps (you can find these with a search).  

[PYP]

Forgot to mention to keep it on all the time.  Starting and stopping does not give you the best sound (and I'm not sure what the constant powering would do, if anything, to the clock).

[chungjh]

I put a heat sink on top of ER and it brought down the temperature significantly--down to just warm.

[JohnSwenson]

6 hours ago, chungjh said:

I put a heat sink on top of ER and it brought down the temperature significantly--down to just warm.

The ER was designed to run in the range 40C - 60C, so if you have cooled it off so the case is below 40C you will most likely not be getting the best sound it is capable of giving you.

 

John S.

[chungjh]

This means that there may be a trade off between longevity and performance of ER.

[soares]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The ER was designed to run in the range 40C - 60C, so if you have cooled it off so the case is below 40C you will most likely not be getting the best sound it is capable of giving you.

 

John S.

Oh gosh. I did the same. I wasn’t aware of that possibility, but so far I didn’t experience any drop on the fantastic SQ from the eR. Lucky I’ll be moving to a tropical country next year. Seriously 👍

Kind  regards,

Jorge

[Pokey77]

Some people use heatsinks and some use fans. I'm using a fan and the case is now just warm rather than hot and I have not noticed a decline in SQ. I actually put a fan on my stereo amp too and it now runs much cooler but I did not notice any change in SQ either. John, thanks for sharing with us.

[Heckyman]

On 10/16/2020 at 9:46 PM, Heckyman said:

Been messing since January with the EtherREGEN, network configurations,  Edgerouter X SFP, fibre, Ethernet cables and LPS.
 

I think I’m settling on a network set up similar to that posted by Nenon

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/36/

 

I’m now using the EtherREGEN upstream of the Edgerouter, connecting the two with fibre and running the WiFi access point into the EtherREGEN side B. Edgerouter to audio endpoint. Farad / DC3 on modem/router. In this configuration I found the EtherREGEN doesn’t benefit much at all from LPS, and fibre sounds better than it did when the EtherREGEN was downstream of the router (I didn’t like it there, sounded unnatural). LPS on modem / router make a big difference.
 

 

 

Feel I should update my findings...

Having recently acquired a Zyxel VMG8924-B VDSL modem / router I've now ditched the Edgerouter-X and standalone modem. The EtherREGEN is connected more conventionally to the streamer with copper ethernet (now DC3 powered). Ubiquiti wireless AP, WiFi disabled on the Zyxel (Farad Super 3). 

 

The Zyxel VMG8924-B seems to be a nice unit, it has a good Broadcom chipset and uncommon built in noise filter. There's even the ability to turn off all the LEDs! I also got rid of the microfilter in my phone socket by running a BT -> RJ11 cable and unplugging all landline phones.

For me, since I couldn't justify another LPS, it nets out better to have a decent integrated modem+router plus audiophile switch each powered by a good PSU. Any benefit of the ER-X is undone by having to run a SMPS on either the modem or the EtherREGEN.

The WiFi AP is still on a 24V PoE injector brick, but preliminary listening indicates that it doesn't degrade the sound (much) vs no WiFi at all in the chain. I didn't test the router's built-in WiFi. It's known to be not very good.

 

I will keep the ER-X for testing: for offline network playback and for the fibre-to-the-home future.

 

Overall my network tweaking has improved the sound quite a bit but I've reached my personal point of diminishing returns in this area (I think!). I've tried all sorts of weird  configurations but my conclusion about what's essential is broadly the same as others: audiophile switch + good PSUs / grounding on networking gear. 

 

[HumanMedia]

I have received a 3m cable and single mode SFP transceivers to optically connect a Sonore opticalModule to the etherRegen.

The SFP are the single mode PlanetTech (20KM range), no attenuators. All devices have quality linear power supplies.

 

All functions fine and I have had it running for a week now.

 

Only issue is that this optical connection sounds worse than a CAT6a ethernet connection from the same router. Slightly pushed, unnatural high frequencies. I've swapped back and forth a few times and optical in my system is consistently worse.

 

I know others have tried this exact setup without any issues, with a noticeable improvement over wired ethernet.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? or have suggestion to what is wrong and how this could be fixed?

 

The only thing I can think of is that I need to add attenuators to the cable, maybe 5db to 10db. however multiple others have found that this is not an issue with the PlanetTechs.

 

I am at my wits end! Help me brains-trust!

[skatbelt]

25 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

I have received a 3m cable and single mode SFP transceivers to optically connect a Sonore opticalModule to the etherRegen.

The SFP are the single mode PlanetTech (20KM range), no attenuators. All devices have quality linear power supplies.

 

All functions fine and I have had it running for a week now.

 

Only issue is that this optical connection sounds worse than a CAT6a ethernet connection from the same router. Slightly pushed, unnatural high frequencies. I've swapped back and forth a few times and optical in my system is consistently worse.

 

I know others have tried this exact setup without any issues, with a noticeable improvement over wired ethernet.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? or have suggestion to what is wrong and how this could be fixed?

 

The only thing I can think of is that I need to add attenuators to the cable, maybe 5db to 10db. however multiple others have found that this is not an issue with the PlanetTechs.

 

I am at my wits end! Help me brains-trust!

 

I have 10m single mode combined with (I believe) the same Planet SFP's without attenuators and absolutely prefer this to copper.  I cannot imagine that 3m vs. 10m makes a difference. Which optical cable do you use? I use this (OS2) one: https://www.conrad.nl/p/telegartner-l00875a0034-glasvezel-aansluitkabel-1x-lc-stekker-1x-lc-stekker-9125-singlemode-os2-1000-m-1542091

 

Edit: the opticalModule needs some time to burn-in so this could also be a reason.

[HumanMedia]

4 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

I have 10m single mode combined with (I believe) the same Planet SFP's without attenuators and absolutely prefer this to copper.  I cannot imagine that 3m vs. 10m makes a difference. Which optical cable do you use? I use this (OS2) one: https://www.conrad.nl/p/telegartner-l00875a0034-glasvezel-aansluitkabel-1x-lc-stekker-1x-lc-stekker-9125-singlemode-os2-1000-m-1542091

 

 

 

I am using this cable 3m,

https://www.fs.com/au/products/68296.html

[PYP]

6 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

the opticalModule needs some time to burn-in so this could also be a reason.

 

Agree.  Give it another week so that you know this isn't a variable.  

[PYP]

38 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

I have received a 3m cable and single mode SFP transceivers to optically connect a Sonore opticalModule to the etherRegen.

The SFP are the single mode PlanetTech (20KM range), no attenuators. All devices have quality linear power supplies.

Do you have separate LPS for oM and eR?  If not, have you tried grounding the eR?

[HumanMedia]

9 minutes ago, PYP said:

 

Agree.  Give it another week so that you know this isn't a variable.  

I actually had the opticalModule plugged in and turned on (but without the SFP) for a week prior to this week with the SFP and cable.

 

Separate power supply for opticalModule (2.2A CIAudio supply) and the etherRegen (Farad3, 7V). Farad is apparently grounded but with a resistor to ground (to attenuate high frequency ground loops?).

 

 

[PYP]

4 minutes ago, HumanMedia said:

I actually had the opticalModule plugged in and turned on (but without the SFP) for a week prior to this week with the SFP and cable.

 

Separate power supply for opticalModule (2.2A CIAudio supply) and the etherRegen (Farad3, 7V). Farad is apparently grounded but with a resistor to ground (to attenuate high frequency ground loops?).

 

 

And the eR itself is grounded?  If not, that is easy to try.  Unfortunately, I have no experience with your type of fiber (single mode) or SFP, so cannot help.  @kennyb123 has tried several fiber/SFP options, so perhaps he can help. 

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

I actually had the opticalModule plugged in and turned on (but without the SFP) for a week prior to this week with the SFP and cable.

 

Separate power supply for opticalModule (2.2A CIAudio supply) and the etherRegen (Farad3, 7V). Farad is apparently grounded but with a resistor to ground (to attenuate high frequency ground loops?).

 

I have the ground of my ER connected to the ground connection on my Shunyata Denali.  This had been in place since even before my Farad supply arrived.  I left it in place just but never really checked to see if it was needed.

 

The real concern, I believe, is leakage current traveling between components connected to the A side.  I only use a single port on the A side so I could go without the ground connection.  But if you have multiple devices connected to the A side you might want to try a ground connection.

[StreamFidelity]

8 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

The SFP are the single mode PlanetTech (20KM range), no attenuators.

 

The length of the fiber optic cable can make all the difference. If the cable is too short, the receiver may be dazzled. If the cables are too long, the signals may be weak. Twists or kinks increase the attenuation and weaken the laser beam.

 

You have a transceiver with 20km! Range. I recommend using a longer cable (20m) so that higher attenuation is achieved.

[Heckyman]

11 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

I have received a 3m cable and single mode SFP transceivers to optically connect a Sonore opticalModule to the etherRegen.

The SFP are the single mode PlanetTech (20KM range), no attenuators. All devices have quality linear power supplies.

 

All functions fine and I have had it running for a week now.

 

Only issue is that this optical connection sounds worse than a CAT6a ethernet connection from the same router. Slightly pushed, unnatural high frequencies. I've swapped back and forth a few times and optical in my system is consistently worse.

 

I know others have tried this exact setup without any issues, with a noticeable improvement over wired ethernet.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? or have suggestion to what is wrong and how this could be fixed?

 

The only thing I can think of is that I need to add attenuators to the cable, maybe 5db to 10db. however multiple others have found that this is not an issue with the PlanetTechs.

 

I am at my wits end! Help me brains-trust!

I didn't try your exact set up, but I did have a try with fibre and didn't like it. 

The fibre was between Edgerouter-x SFP and Etherregen (Ubiquiti SFPs).

Perhaps the background was "blacker" and my initial impression was quite good. But over a period of days I noted less engagement with the music. There was a kind of mechanical quality whereas returning to copper felt more natural and alive even if there might have been a touch more "noise". 

Normally I have a small go with something and if the improvement is in the right direction I optimise further. Regarding fibre networking, I decided not to pursue it further as it struck me as something that cuts both ways (i.e benefits of opto-isolation vs drawbacks of extra conversion/processing). 

 

In summary, trust your own ears in your own system!

[skatbelt]

1 hour ago, Heckyman said:

I didn't try your exact set up, but I did have a try with fibre and didn't like it. 

The fibre was between Edgerouter-x SFP and Etherregen (Ubiquiti SFPs).

Perhaps the background was "blacker" and my initial impression was quite good. But over a period of days I noted less engagement with the music. There was a kind of mechanical quality whereas returning to copper felt more natural and alive even if there might have been a touch more "noise". 

Normally I have a small go with something and if the improvement is in the right direction I optimise further. Regarding fibre networking, I decided not to pursue it further as it struck me as something that cuts both ways (i.e benefits of opto-isolation vs drawbacks of extra conversion/processing). 

 

In summary, trust your own ears in your own system!

 

My experience is quite the opposite but only after adding a Sonore opticalModule. My guess is that your Edgerouter is a weak link when going fiber for audio.

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

My experience is quite the opposite but only after adding a Sonore opticalModule. My guess is that your Edgerouter is a weak link when going fiber for audio.

 

The opticalModule offered a marked improvement over using a Startech FMC in terms of naturalness.  I agree with your suggestion that the Edgerouter might be the culprit.  The SFPs can also impact this too - maybe even more so.

[HumanMedia]

My experience was just like Heckyman but with the opticalModule and PlanetTech SFP. Definitely some positives in the mid range and with spatiality which at first seemed alluring but the slight harsh treble outweighed that after a week. 
 

Next steps, burn the SFP in for another week, get some attenuators to lower the receive strength to be closer to the midrange of receive sensitivity.

 

I do wonder if the RFI generated by those SFP we let into the walled garden in order to keep electrical noise out, is actually worse for some systems, than the electrical noise kept out. Especially higher-energy single mode long-range SFP...

 

Swapped them around again last night, optical harsh and edgy in the highs, CAT6 more organic and natural.

Thanks for your suggestions people, keep them coming, really want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, HumanMedia said:

I do wonder if the RFI generated by those SFP we let into the walled garden in order to keep electrical noise out, is actually worse for some systems, than the electrical noise kept out. Especially higher-energy single mode long-range SFP...

 

 

In the EtherRegen white paper, John had discussed "threshold jitter".  I wonder if noise on the ground plane might impact SFP performance on consumer FMCs, where as the opticalModule (and ER) are designed to handle this correctly.