The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[PYP]

2 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

The shielding (for individual pairs and overal) is to prevent electromagnetic interference so the cable meets its specs in terms of speed, bandwidth and distances for computer networking.

Thank you.  What I was trying to ask is what "noise" gets transmitted over copper ethernet, thus the question about shielding.  @Superdad got to the root of my intended question:  "We are all aware that there are some people--on other forums and even here on Audiophile Style--who are stuck thinking about Ethernet (and USB for that matter) as existing only as data packets of ones and zeros (which in itself is just a construct since the signals are a train of timed, variable voltages). The are not considering the issues of either moving clock-thresholds caused by ground-plane noise (itself caused by deterministic jitter) or the effects of common-mode leakage currents."

[LewinskiH01]

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare Tera Grand ultra flat ($15) and/or Ghent Audio ET11 with JSSG ($80) with more expensive cables? That is, for the cable downstream from eR.

[sahmen]

6 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I was able to hear the SOtM Ethernet cable compared to my Cable Matters CAT8 in my system this morning.  While the CM cable is a screaming deal, it was no match for the SOtM - and this was almost immediately apparent.  We listened to “Speak No Evil” from Wayne Shorter’s album of the same name.  Timbre was more dead on with the qualities one hears from a saxophone and trumpet passed along more faithfully.  Micro-dynamics was one of those qualities that was just more convincing with the SOtM.  I was surprised to even hear a more apparent sense of Shorter moving closer and then away from the microphone as he played.

 

A Shunyata Sigma demo cable should be on its way sometime soon.  At almost twice the price of the SOtM it better be a lot better.  If the additional cost isn’t justified I will pull the trigger on the SOtM and call it a day.  The improvements I heard were worth the additional cost over the CM cable - though I would certainly understand if others didn’t feel the same.  

Was this the SOtM Cat6 or Cat7 cable, if I may ask? Actually, I meant to ask "dCBL-CAT6" or "IdCBL-CAT7"?  

And I am assuming it only needs to be used between the B-side of the ER and the streamer, is that accurate?

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, sahmen said:

Was this the SOtM Cat6 or Cat7 cable, if I may ask? Actually, I meant to ask "dCBL-CAT6" or "IdCBL-CAT7"?  

And I am assuming it only needs to be used between the B-side of the ER and the streamer, is that accurate?

 

Yes it was the dCBL-CAT7 cable used between B-side and my Innuos Zenith streamer.  It's a heavy and inflexible cable, but it sounded great.

[sahmen]

27 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Yes it was the dCBL-CAT7 cable used between B-side and my Innuos Zenith streamer.  It's a heavy and inflexible cable, but it sounded great.

 

I replaced the  RJ45 cable in my Metrum Ambre with the SOtM dCBL Cat6 cable, and it opened up the sound signature quite significantly, improving it on several levels. Now with the Etherregen connected directly to the Ambre from the B-side, it seems to me that the Cable Matter Cat8 connecting the ER to the Ambre represents a kind of bottleneck, and that as good as the Ambre currently sounds, it is going to sound even better if the ethernet cable connecting it to the ER is another dCBL Cat8 table.

 

In the photos below, the one on the left shows the stock  RJ45 cable with which the Ambre original came. The photo on the right shows the SOTM dCBL Cat6, which sounds much better than the stock.

 

Your mention of the SOtM cat7 brought this question to mind again.

 

 

 

 

[lmitche]

16 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks for responding.

 

One of the things I liked about the new Monoprice CAT8 (moreso than Cable Matters) was that it affected image width almost spectacularly in the few days it was in my system, which is attractive to me because my room’s layout and my speaker placement seem to box in the image.  I switched back to 6A just a few minutes ago and, immediate, I noticed the image return to its normal size.  That’s not the change I expected in CAT8, but I would gladly take it, even as a placebo, unless I am creating risk or problems elsewhere.

 

Each of these cables has been connected at one end to a plastic wall plate with CAT6 in the wall.  Its other end is connected to the ER’s metal B port.  The ER has the standard Uptone-branded SMPS powering it and the FMC connects to my rendu‘s optical port via fiber?  If the cable is metal tipped and grounded, what power issues am I facing if I use CAT8 rather than 6A for the ER in this application?

I am not sure what you mean by power issues. Cat 5,6,7 or 8 will have zero operational issues, as they will all work properly.  SQ differences are the only things that should impact your cable choice.

[Jud]

18 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Thanks for responding.

 

One of the things I liked about the new Monoprice CAT8 (moreso than Cable Matters) was that it affected image width almost spectacularly in the few days it was in my system, which is attractive to me because my room’s layout and my speaker placement seem to box in the image.  I switched back to 6A just a few minutes ago and, immediate, I noticed the image return to its normal size.  That’s not the change I expected in CAT8, but I would gladly take it, even as a placebo, unless I am creating risk or problems elsewhere.

 

Each of these cables has been connected at one end to a plastic wall plate with CAT6 in the wall.  Its other end is connected to the ER’s metal B port.  The ER has the standard Uptone-branded SMPS powering it and the FMC connects to my rendu‘s optical port via fiber?  If the cable is metal tipped and grounded, what power issues am I facing if I use CAT8 rather than 6A for the ER in this application?

 

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I am not sure what you mean by power issues. Cat 5,6,7 or 8 will have zero operational issues, as they will all work properly.  SQ differences are the only things that should impact your cable choice.

I am guessing this is my fault for talking about “leakage current,” etc., without being more careful to explain what I mean.

 

In a home audio system, leakage current will be of concern, if at all, as a cause of noise impacting sound quality. So as @lmitche says, just pay attention to SQ.

 

(I must admit that having learned the Ghent cable is nicely shielded without having the connectors tied, I have ordered one to see what difference it might make in my somewhat unusual future circumstance of having a combined modem/router feeding the ER. But I consider the $80 price quite expensive for an Ethernet cable, so it will need to be quite good to convince me I should use it rather than, for example, a Monoprice Cat 8 with nail polish applied to one connector.)

[MarkS]

I didn't get a chance to try the 10db attenuators on each end this weekend, but I will very soon.

 

Stupid question in advance.  Do the attentions just lower gain or volume by 10db?  If so, then aren’t the attenuators just volume knobs.  If not, then what do attenuators do?

 

 

[MarkS]

On 1/25/2020 at 1:30 PM, sahmen said:

 

Optical modul + ER

 

2.  I am thinking of adding an optical module to the ER chain, to be set up as follows :

Asus Router==>> (copper ethernet)==>>Optical module==>>(optical ethernet)==>>(A side)Etherregen(B-Side)==>>(Copper ethernet) ==>> Metrum Ambre.

 

Would that work? 

 

 

That works. It is what I am doing now.  I like it, but (and I know this is sacreligious) I might like two optical modules better then the OM to the ER.  Still tinkering.  Bass seemed more dynamic and impactful before the ER (I think 😁) when using two OM’s (router ==>> Cooper Ethernet ==>> OM ==>> Fiber ==>> OM ==>> copper Ethernet ==>> dac) than the configuration you propose, which I presently run. 

[Albrecht]

On 1/23/2020 at 5:52 PM, MarkS said:

One other question that will annoy and/or frustrate many:  has anyone found a difference in SQ between different brands of the SFP's that slide into the OpticalModule and/or the EtherRegen?

 

I am using orange colored fiber that was supplied by Small Green Computer when I bought two of the OpticalModules.  I think I paid $20 for it.

Hi,

I don't have an etherRegen yet. I compared power supplies with the opticalModule and my TP-Link FMCs. Wish that I could afford dos LPS-1 for both FMCs. I am using a JameCo power supply(s) for both opticalModule and my remaining TP-Link which will get swapped for my current OM once I get an opticalRendu. (Then, - I'll move the LPS-1 to the opticalModule when I get the OR).  I found no difference with 3 different 35ft Fiber cables. Also, - I did notice a slight improvement with an opticalModule over the TP-Link. This improvement IMO, to my system, was not really worth the extra $200 for the OM. But i have wasted $200 on some way dumber purchases....

[sandston]

13 minutes ago, MarkS said:

I didn't get a chance to try the 10db attenuators on each end this weekend, but I will very soon.

 

Stupid question in advance.  Do the attentions just lower gain or volume by 10db?  If so, then aren’t the attenuators just volume knobs.  If not, then what do attenuators do?

 

 

This idea of attenuation of the fiber signal has lead me to do some research. I remember reading somewhere that there might be a minimum fiber optic cable length requirement in order to limit back reflections and I wanted to confirm this. Have not found any info to support this yet however I did see a guide that says you should put all attenuation on the receiving end only. 

https://community.fs.com/blog/guideline-for-fixed-fiber-optic-attenuator.html

 

There is also quiet a bit of info on how the attenuation is done and what this does to signal loss and signal distortion.

 

Perhaps a new thread needs to be started to compile this info. As we all know this equipment is designed for very long runs and we are using it for very short runs. We need to compile some numbers for the common transceivers and receivers we as a community are using including their output and input specs to determine how much attenuation we really need in a given run to be at an optimum operating point. 

[sandston]

I found a page that mentions non-optimum attenuation as well as the idea that some cables have the attenuation built in.

 

1. Fixed Attenuators: Fixed optical attenuators used in fiber optic systems may use a variety of principles for their functioning. Preferred attenuators use either doped fibers, or misaligned splices, or total power since both of these are reliable and inexpensive.

 

Inline style attenuators are incorporated into patch cables. The alternative build out style attenuator is a small male-female adapter that can be added onto other cables.

Non-preferred attenuators often use gap loss or reflective principles. Such devices can be sensitive to modal distribution, wavelength, contamination, vibration, temperature, damage due to power bursts, may cause back reflections, may cause signal dispersion etc.

[lpost]

There should be no need for attenuators unless you're running LR - Long Range transceivers, in which case don't do this, as they are designed to shoot many kilometers.  SX - mulitmode and LX - singlemode should work just fine with a 1M fiber patch.  The lasers won't over drive the receiver.

 

If the receiver is being over driven, you likely won't get link/signal and if you do it will drop and recover over and over until the receiver is burned out.

[skatbelt]

I agree. To my knowledge, the only reason this became a topic here in the first place is because, over at another forum, Emile from Taiko Audio is reporting SQ improvements using these long distance types of SFP's for his SGM Extreme server. So a case of n=1 and in the context of a server that is.. well.. itself subject to all kinds of extreme measures...

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, MarkS said:

I didn't get a chance to try the 10db attenuators on each end this weekend, but I will very soon.

 

Stupid question in advance.  Do the attentions just lower gain or volume by 10db?  If so, then aren’t the attenuators just volume knobs.  If not, then what do attenuators do?

 

 

 

No they don't impact volume.  They just reduce the strength of the laser so as to not oversaturate the receiver.

[kennyb123]

2 hours ago, lpost said:

There should be no need for attenuators unless you're running LR - Long Range transceivers, in which case don't do this, as they are designed to shoot many kilometers.  SX - mulitmode and LX - singlemode should work just fine with a 1M fiber patch.  The lasers won't over drive the receiver.

 

If the receiver is being over driven, you likely won't get link/signal and if you do it will drop and recover over and over until the receiver is burned out.

 

There are two other folks who use the same Startech SFPs as I who reported exactly the same sound quality benefit from using attenuators.  The phrase "should be no need" more often than not isn't applicable in systems where "everything matters" (or at least seems to).

 

I could not listen to my system without attenuators when playing less than stellar recordings. The top end could get so hot that it ran me out of the room.  I had to flip back to copper until the attenuators arrived - and they solved the problem providing that I used at least 10 dB per side.

 

I think you may be right though to suggest SFPs with a shorter range. I will have to compare them myself one of these days.

[kennyb123]

2 hours ago, lpost said:

There should be no need for attenuators unless you're running LR - Long Range transceivers, in which case don't do this, as they are designed to shoot many kilometers.  SX - mulitmode and LX - singlemode should work just fine with a 1M fiber patch.  The lasers won't over drive the receiver.

 

If the receiver is being over driven, you likely won't get link/signal and if you do it will drop and recover over and over until the receiver is burned out.

 

Interesting counterpoint in the post that follows.  

 

Quote:  "To achieve this, I have used OM5 fibre optic cable feeding the EtherRegen using transceivers with wavelength of 1310nm (the 850nm waves on this 850nm optimized cable flattened or crushed the soundstage too much for me)."

 

This is the first post I've seen that correlates optical wavelength with sound quality.  

 

[lpost]

Interesting.  I wonder if he found a difference or tried all copper Ethernet.  It's difficult for me to justify how the optical wavelength used could impact the sound and flatten or crush the sound stage; perhaps unless the 850nm SFP were faulty but again, it's a situation of either signal or no signal.  It can be too low or too hot but this will only cause retries or dropouts of the data.

 

It's cheap to experiment but use caution to not to lose the forest for the trees (or music).

 

fyi and fwiw, I have an ER in my system and very much like what it's brought to the system.  I've got copper from a Cisco 2960G feeding it and 850nm multi-mode out to my server with PCIe board then I2S to my DAC.

[GryphonGuy]

3 hours ago, lpost said:

Interesting.  I wonder if he found a difference or tried all copper Ethernet.  It's difficult for me to justify how the optical wavelength used could impact the sound and flatten or crush the sound stage; perhaps unless the 850nm SFP were faulty but again, it's a situation of either signal or no signal.  It can be too low or too hot but this will only cause retries or dropouts of the data.

 

It's cheap to experiment but use caution to not to lose the forest for the trees (or music).

 

fyi and fwiw, I have an ER in my system and very much like what it's brought to the system.  I've got copper from a Cisco 2960G feeding it and 850nm multi-mode out to my server with PCIe board then I2S to my DAC.

 

Hi lpost,

 

Yes I did try all copper Ethernet and quite a few different combinations of same brand before and after the ER and different brands before and after the ER. Cables in Cat 6A, Cat7 and Cat8 were used and they varied with the amount of shielding on the cables from none (UTP) to unshielded cable but foil shielded pairs (U/FTP) and fully shielded (S/FTP). Any form of shielding was better than unshielded before the ER. The most pleasing copper connection was Cable Matters Cat8 before the ER and Tera Grand Cat7 after the ER BUT the OM5 fibre cable's transparency (with the 1310nm transceivers) and airiness trounced the copper connection in my system. Of course YMMV. 

 

Unfortunately I do not have an OM4 fibre optic cable long enough to try it to see if it is something special about the OM5 cable but the reason the OM5 cable was introduced, according to sales literature, was to get greater distance using 850nm transceivers.

 

It was a surprise to me too that the wavelength of the transceivers mattered especially since the cable is supposedly optimised for the 850nm wavelength signals. It was not that subtle that the 1310nm transceivers opened the air around the instruments in the mix. The transceivers are from the Fiberstore custom made for my ubiquity networking gear.

 

Regards

GG

[jean-michel6]

On 1/26/2020 at 10:38 PM, PYP said:

In the listening thread  @Nikko1960  wrote about a thread on Roonlabs forum:  I simply cannot believe the moronic exchanges I have had over here, as a result of trying to spread some good news. Unbelievable!  I post a review towards the end of this thread. 

 

Some of us have commented that our spouse/significant other, who doesn't care about equipment and would rather we not spend $$ on new stuff, have heard an improvement.  How would the more vitriolic voices on that thread explain that?  I understand the skepticism (and welcome it), but a pre-judgement that something cannot work just doesn't make sense to me.  

 

It is true I don't understand the mechanics of copper ethernet, and so want to ask those who do:  What is the purpose of the additional shielding for the newer cables (cat 8, for example) that carry more data?   Put another way:  If it is all just bits, why the additional shielding?

Which SOTM cable did you use ?

The dcbl cat 6 or dcbl cat 7 ?

[lpost]

20 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

 

 

Perhaps 1550nm is worth trying...

[HumanMedia]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:20 AM, Jud said:

(I must admit that having learned the Ghent cable is nicely shielded without having the connectors tied, I have ordered one to see what difference it might make in my somewhat unusual future circumstance of having a combined modem/router feeding the ER. But I consider the $80 price quite expensive for an Ethernet cable, so it will need to be quite good to convince me I should use it rather than, for example, a Monoprice Cat 8 with nail polish applied to one connector.)

[HumanMedia]

@Jud I couldn’t  write a reply (above) to a quote from my phone, but I wanted to say that I am very eager to hear your findings with the Ghent.

 

[Jud]

Sometimes I am a little slow. 🙂 In physically arranging my system I'd been using a USPCB and Ghent JSSG360 USB cable to and from my ISO REGEN, and decided I preferred the USPCB coming out of the ISO REGEN into the DAC. I hadn't thought of the implications of this since I got the ER.

 

Since I preferred the USPCB after the ISO REGEN, that essentially means I prefer it to the Ghent USB cable. Having the ER in the chain makes it physically possible for me to use USPCBs both before and after the ISO REGEN. So I ordered another from UpTone and put it in the chain Monday evening. Nice little bump in sound quality, and the system as a whole now just sounds amazing.

 

I have noticed that since the new arrangement has put more torque on the connections (having the short, stiff USPCB rather than the longer, more flexible Ghent USB cable between the microRendu and ISO REGEN), network connectivity with the fairly stiff Monoprice Cat 8 between ER and microRendu has become more finicky. If that becomes too much of a pain I may go back to the Cable Matters Cat 8 or another cable (I have a spare 12 foot long Cat 7, or the Slimrun, which puts no torque at all on the connections) until I try the Ghent JSSG360 Ethernet whenever it arrives - it's New Year in China and Ghent's business is closed (except for ordering) for the holiday until February 1st, I believe.

 

Subsequent to that, I'll be looking forward to purchasing and installing the Netgear CAX80 gateway, which will give me Wi-fi 6 (gigabit wi-fi - nice!). Since it's a modem and router in one, it will eliminate the wire between my current cable modem and router from the path to my streamer and DAC. We'll see whether and how that affects the sound.

[Johnnydev]

Following the positive reviews I bought the monoprice cat8 and now in use them for a week with very good results.

I also use DIY supra cat8 with the shield connected to only one side of my choice depending on where they are used.

 

The combination of the supra cat8 with the monoprice cat 8 in some places really gives 1 + 1 = 2.

 

The choice of connected shield or not is also easy to arrange with RJ45 cat6 inline couplers or cat6a shielded inline couplers.

 

just try it