The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[LewinskiH01]

Has anybody had the opportunity to compare Tera Grand ultra flat ($15) and/or Ghent Audio ET11 with JSSG ($80) with more expensive cables? That is, for the cable downstream from eR.

[LewinskiH01]

On 2/9/2020 at 9:13 PM, Jud said:

 

Yes, I'm very happy with what I'm hearing. I have this nagging curiosity about whether a well shielded cable without the shield tied to ground at the connectors will do a good job, particularly upstream of the ER, so I'm trying the Ghent. But that's as expensive as I go.

Hey @Jud. Wondering how the Ghent test is turning out for you. Any updates? 

I seem to be in your same line of thought.

 

Cheers

[LewinskiH01]

6 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Hi - just came this afternoon. The tragic situation with the coronavirus has understandably slowed shipping from China.

 

Thank you. Indeed, it's mayhem. My sister lives in Beijing and fled 4 weeks ago with the kids. No fun.

 

From reading around, I'm understanding the JSSG360 boils down to a metal mesh throughout the length of the cable with a thin cable running along and connected at both ends to the mesh. A long Faraday cage with a connective link to allow any potential differential to flow from one end to the other. Am I understanding it right? So a DIY JSSG360 treatment is fairly easy to try on any std CAT6 or 7 and hear if it makes any difference vs a plain version. Fun to test while I wait for my eR to be shipped end of next week or so.

 

Looking forward to your experience with the Ghent!

[LewinskiH01]

On 2/21/2020 at 8:20 AM, Iving said:

 

I'm on a learning curve myself with JSSG - about to build DC cables for an SR7. The DC Cables thread [https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31554-diy-dc-power-cables/] is excellent. I only post really to say that there is a "360" version of JSSG which I understand to involve the replacement of the outer wire with a further braid/mesh (credit @lmitche if I'm not mistaken). On the DC thread there are great soldering tips (sic) courtesy @Middy if you are not already a dab hand. Of course JSSG can be used for ethernet cables whether the plugs are DIY or unmolested (in which case a lot trickier).

Thank for the tip! I had actually found the thread in the past and tried to tackle a couple times, but at 49 pages long I gave up along the way. I'll search posts by lmitche and Middy.

 

Thanks again!

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Here is a good cable:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

 

How (un)flexible is this cable?

Thinking of eR sitting by the computer attached to the DAC, with B-side of eR and pc connector being 8" apart, and connecting in U (connectors facing out), will a 16" cable do or should I get something longer?

[LewinskiH01]

Do you notice a difference in sound, or is this done for peace of mind that the units run cooler?

[LewinskiH01]

This question is along the lines of the above two posts, but a little different: 2eRs vs eR+oM?

 

My system is no too refined: internet provider supplied router > CAT6 > eR w/LPS 1.2 > CAT6 > audiophile PC > USB > DAC.

 

I see people speak highly about adding fiber isolation, which could be done with another eR or a oM before the existing eR. My understanding is the oM would demand a LPS, while it's not clear to me if a eR with the supplied SMPS would be good enough to supply the fiber connection to the eR with LPS 1.2.

 

eR @ $640 vs oM w/Sonore LPS @ $810.

 

Thoughts?

[LewinskiH01]

5 hours ago, octaviars said:

 

A rather easy thing to do is to get rid of the router from the ISP and get a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X-SFP that ha one SFP port that you can run directly to the eR. The Ubiquiti runs from 9-26Vdc so lots of possibilitys to use a nice PSU to it.

 

I use Finisar FTLF-1321P1BTL SFP modules and Corning ClearCurve cable between my EdgeRouter and eR.

 

 

Thank you.

My ISP doesn't allow me to change their router. I could add a switch after it, but I'm failing to see how adding a switch with SFP would be better than using an eR or oM in that place, to feed the existing eR. What am I missing?

[LewinskiH01]

6 hours ago, R1200CL said:

 

@LewinskiH01

If you read Alex’s latest posts around last 7 days, you may find some gold. Be patient. 

 

I guess I wouldn't be able to recognize gold if it hit me in the head! I've gone through Superdad's posts of the last 14 days and didn't find it.

Were you referring to his April 4 post regarding RJ45 SFP transceivers? I believe that's a different topic. You were probably referring to something else.

[LewinskiH01]

12 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

@LewinskiH01 I think your approach with an eRG or OM is a very good option. 
 

Some folks, quite appropriately, like the EdgeX device as a router, versus the ISP all-in-one devices (modem, router, telephony). That said, depending upon your experience and comfort level, the Edge can be an "advanced" piece of gear to manage.

 

I think some folks were putting their ISP device in "bridge

mode" and using the EdgeX as a router, and some are using the SFP cage for optical output.

 

The potential issues are: constraints by the ISP, and when running in non-typical ways, having to troubleshoot your own problems.

 

I don't want to overstate that aspect, but if I needed to troubleshoot extensive network config issues, I would shortly be calling in favors from savvy friends. 

 

Admittedly, if your ISP device is on the Intel Puma chip, it might be electronically noisy. If it uses an external power supply, you could choose to use a better supply, and that would be pretty good, IMO. I'm on fiber, but that's what I do: LPS on ISP Nokia modem.
 

Depending on your network needs, the eReGen could be a great and reasonable solution. It has an SFP cage too, as I'm sure you know. Good Luck.

Thank you Markus.

 

Yes, a while back I had the ISP router in bridge mode and used a router of mine, but added complexity to troubleshoot network problems and eventually had the ISP upgrade the router and installed a switch and wired the house and has worked very well since.

I can certainly try the LPS on the ISP router.

 

I'm surprised nobody has opinions of

CAT6>eR SMPS>fiber>eR LPS1.2>CAT6>audio PC

vs.

CAT6>oM LPS>fiber>eR LPS1.2>CAT6>audio PC

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, PYP said:

There should be no shortage of opinions here so I offer the following.  

 

I have a similar setup that combines those two:  CAT8>oM LPS>fiber>eR SMPS>cat8>eR LPS1.2>CAT7>DAC.

When I added the oM to the first eR in my system, the change was very good in that it helped solve a slight HF problem (didn't sound as natural as I like).  Then I added a second eR and that was a large change, much larger than adding the oM, but in the context of having already added the oM.  

 

With this experience, I would give priority to a second eR over an oM if I had to choose one, BUT I can't definitively say that without running an experiment that I'm unwilling to do and stating that every system is different, playing in different rooms and to different ears.  And, of course, the budget is different for the two options.  

 

Great input!!

 

Thank you!

[LewinskiH01]

On 4/30/2021 at 5:09 AM, One and a half said:

Noise reduction enhancement (really worth trying)

 

Looking at the Ethernet transmission system again, there's two hops from the router to EtherRegen. Three if you count the B Side to the Lumin U1 Ethernet input. I recall the drama of selecting USB cables and their different flavour in reducing noise, for Ethernet, the distnances and cost don't transalte to a pleasant time. If the SQ can sound good with garden variety 17c / foot CAT5e, then there's a win-win.

In researching noise filtering for Ethernet systems, I came across DX Engineering out of Tallmadge OH. DX Engineering specialise in products for the radio amateur. Like audiophiles, they hear noise coupled from Ethernet cabling, and hear it on their rigs and it's quite an issue. To solve this dilemma, there's an ISO-PLUS filter that's inserted at the source end of the Ethernet cable and at the receiver end.

 

The premise is at the source end, the noise is hammered from propagating further, the other filter reduces any noise that's picked up along the cable's route. Both filters are electrically the same, have two female RJ45, so there's no special orientation required like source or receiver end. There's a 6in Cat7 cable included with each ISO-Plus unit, which is roughly two matchboxes in size. The ISO-Plus will not pass POE or any DC voltages, which is fine for audio use.

 

SQ impact

TBH, I wasn't expecting a big change, but hey, whoah. The effect is similar to using balanced AC, like looking through a clean window. I'd say there's now depth. For example, Diana Krall "The Girl in the other Room" SACD title track. The opening is Diana forward of centre, with the solo electric guitar about 1 foot behind on the left 10 deg arc, never heard this before, didn't have to imagine or strain to visualise, was easy. Acoustic guitar, piano (Jazz type recordings) are so clear, there's that nice resonance from the cabinetry.  Tried a variety of redbook recordings, of no audiophile heritage to speak of really, , Chillout, Downtempo, I couldn't stop listening, the Pandora's box was open.

 

I ordered a 10 pack on April 23, seven days later, they arrived in AU. Price is USD250 for the 10 pack, great bang for buck.

 

Just goes to show, the source and chain are as important as the rest of the chain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting.

How are using them? On the ethernet cable feeding the eR, so in series with it? Sounds along the lines to those using two eR in series.

[LewinskiH01]

1 hour ago, MartinT said:

I would not have a PC in my music room. Far too noisy.

 

When you can have dedicated low noise streamer/bridges like the ultraRendu and signatureRendu which can do file-based or streams, I would always go for the dedicated component for the job.

 

I work in IT, so I have no shortage of PCs!

 

Hello Martin.

Was wondering if/how your view might change if the DAC had ethernet connection?

 

I have an "audio PC" (no motors, etc, LPS and so on) feeding a USB DAC. I'm considering turning the PC into the server that connects to an eR A>B to ethernet DAC.

 

Regards

[LewinskiH01]

I for one will be looking forward for those who get to try these DX filters upstream from eR vs two eRs in tandem. 🙂

[LewinskiH01]

6 hours ago, PYP said:

One DX filter in my setup connects the copper patch cable coming from in-wall copper to an OpticalModule which connects to the first eR via fiber.  

 

Interesting! So the DX also has a positive impact in a system like your upstream from fiber and two eRs in series. I was wondering about DX+eR vs 2 es, but I guess that has been addressed!

[LewinskiH01]

For those who tried/preferred Ghent, what's the recommended criteria to choose between ET11 (CAT6a) and ET12 (CAT8)? Other than stiffness of ET12. To use on B-side of eR. Current is generic CAT7, so either should be a significant improvement (at least that is my expectation!).

[LewinskiH01]

3 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

I think it is better to use the DX before the EtherRegen(s)

 

Cat8 cables are not a problem at all. Supra cat8 etc. I think it is even better if you are very careful with the shields/ groundloops
 

Try also the afterdark constelllation ethernetcable, he is great.

 

Between two EtherRegens it is better to use optical/fiber cables.

 

 

In my case DX’s between router and the first EtherRegen. And from the last DX to the EtherRegen i use the afterdark constellation ethernet cable instead of the short DX cable to the first EtherRegen.

 

From the first to the second EtherRegen i use the afterdark project constellation fiber since a few days.
 

Both with great results. :-)

What cable do you use after your 2nd eR?

[LewinskiH01]

14 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The ER B side only runs at 100Mb, the A side ports are fully negotiable to 10/100/1000. There is a switch chip on the A side but not the B side. So you CAN connect at 100 on the B side 1Gb on the A side. The A side port will be transferring data  at 1Gb, but the overall throughput will never be above 100Mb, there is a lot of "dead air" between packets.

 

So you can run the B side at 100M and the A side at 1G.

 

John S.

 

Since we have touched on the 1Gb vs 100Mb topic, I wanted to ask for opinions of a setup I've been chewing on: I do 4-way active stereo, so 8 channels, digital crossovers. I have my eye on Merging Hapi, that is well known for sound, especially over DSD, and uses Ravenna. I found one person using Hapi and eR, who confirmed Hapi wouldn't run out of eR B-side - no surprise. He used two ports on the A-side, which obviously isn't best.

 

1) Does anybody have an educated guess if this would work: have eR1 receive on A-side, output through B-side connecting to eR2 A-side where Hapi will also connect. So Hapi would see a 1Gb connection, but there will be a 100Mb bottleneck on the B-side of eR1. Moat of eR2 would be leveraged, unfortunately.

 

2) I'm thinking 8-channel DSD might be too much for 100Mb bottleneck. Maybe get 2-channel PCM streamed through eR and into an AudioPC with HQPlayer to do the convolution and upsampling to DSD and have a direct ethernet connection to Hapi?

[LewinskiH01]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Well that depends on how fast your DSD is. Two channels of DSD 512 is about 24Mbps, 4 of those (8 channels) is really pushing what a 100Mbps link can do, it probably would not work.

 

John S.

Thank you John! By "fast" you mean DSD 512 or 256, etc, right? Would DSD 256 be 12Mbps, so 4 would be about 48Mbps and maybe enough for B-side?

 

[LewinskiH01]

4 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

 

It could be that in people whose LPS and cables etc. have already been tuned very well, that a deterioration can occur with the DX, as with me here too.

 

For people who have not yet tuned their entire set, the DX will certainly be able to give a (big) improvement and then it is a very cheap tweak.

I was thinking along the same lines: maybe upstream network optimization are key difference amongst users and affects the ressuts? I remember MartinT mentioned his upstream network was optimized (LPS for router, etc), and my recollection from Rsbrsvp is that he didn't. Could it be that DX is filtering out high frequency components injected by mediocre SMPS upstream (like from the router), so if you don't have such SMPS to start with then you are better off?

 

If that were the case the DX would be a much cheaper way to chean that noise than an LPS for the router, provided there is at least one eR downstream.

[LewinskiH01]

Alex: sorry if this thread is not the best place to post, but didn't find a better one and does involve network and building around eR. Please move as you see fit.

 

What 8-channel audio cards are you using with eR? I have Lynx Hilo with additional Metrum Octave, but want to go to an 8-channel device, preferably fed from ethernet vs USB. Naturally my two eRs would be in the chain, but side B is not Gigabit so that rules out my top pick so far: Merging Hapi uses Ravenna, which demands Gigabit. Of course I could go Hapi and do without eR, but I appreciate what eR does to sound so want to build on it.

 

I am probably not the only one here doing active stereo 4-ways, so looking for your picks of ethernet-based 8-channel ADC/DAC cards with the best sound and that can run with eR. 

 

Thank you!

[LewinskiH01]

21 minutes ago, barrows said:

Not Alex here, but I suspect that you would want to maintain Gigabit speeds throughout your network to handle multi channel audio.  One could use the eR from only the A side I guess, and it would still perform better than most switches.

Not really. I am doing 8-channel now through ethernet and going through two eRs from A>B, so Gigabit not required for this to work. My Roon core convolves into 8 channels, sends through ethernet (and thru 2 eRs) to a dedicated PC which is connected to Hilo.

 

Hapi uses Ravenna, which demands Gigabit to work. Hence I am hoping other eR users are doing multichannel too and can point me to cards proven to work with eR and to sound great.

[LewinskiH01]

12 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

 

My PC has an audio subnet connected via an EtherRegen and a Focusrite Dante audio card. That Dante card demands a 1Gb/s connection so I purchased a TP-link TL-SG105E and powered it with the UltraCap LPS-1.2. with two short Cat-8 CableMatters patch cables from PC > TP-link > ER-B. I use fibre in the "A" side of the ER so this was the only option. Because I send only 2-channel 192kHz max over this connection, 100MBit/s is way over spec for that and works a treat.

 

Regards

GG

Thank you!

 

So your eR is in the network before your PC, and then another RJ45 in the PC is used for the "subnet" to connect thru the SG105E to your Focusrite? I guess you tried eR a>b between PC and Focusrite and didn't work because of Dante demands (demanding, even though not as much as Ravenna).

 

I do 8-channel at 24bit/192kHz and works without problem but have no Dante/Ravenna protocols imposed by the hardware.

 

I want to clean the rack a bit: today I have a PC, its LPS, two DACs, and could do with just an ethernet 8-channel interface and have the PC elsewhere. And in the switc, of course, would like to improve sound quality.

 

Maybe I should get a USB interface and have a small NAA behind it? And get around Ravenna/Dante.

[LewinskiH01]

21 minutes ago, GryphonGuy said:

 

The Focusrite card, from memory, senses 100Mbit/s speed and says please connect to 1Gb/s ethernet port or words to that effect. Very blatant and inoperative until it connects at 1Gb/s.

 

8 channels @ 24/192 runs to about 74Mb/s or 74-75% capacity of a 100Mb/s connection. I am always super conservative and don't design ethernet connections to run at more than 50% capacity due to overheads, packet broadcast requirements etc etc even in full-duplex connections. So you are lucky that it is currently working.

 

My own research found that single-mode fibre (commonly yellow colour) with 1310nm wavelength transceivers works best for audio.

 

Professional multi-channel USB interfaces are rare because it is so hard to do it well and be electrically quiet. Prism Sound in the UK do some high-end USB interfaces. I chose Avid MTRX for my interface as ethernet is much better with audio than USB electrically speaking, in my opinion and to my ears.

 

Regards

GG

Yeap. Prism Titan is one I had my eye on a while back (when I purchased Hilo), but to me makes sense that a good ethernet implementation should be better than a good usb implementation, so been looking for that.

 

Avid MTRX looks Pro Tools focused. Were you a Pro Tools user before buying the MTRX or you learnt for this application? 

How does the MTRX get along with the eR and the 100Mb/s?

Where in your chain is the single-mode optic fiber you mentioned?

 

Thanks for the input!

[LewinskiH01]

I'm back again with an idea that might allow me to use eR with a Ravenna or Dante multichannel ADC/DAC. Would love to get input from the knowledgeable around here!

 

I realized my PC optimized/dedicated to audio, currently connected thru USB to Hilo, has 2 ethernet ports. It's an old Intel S1200KPR server motherboard with two 1GbE ports. One port connects to an eR, which connects to the router, etc. Some ethernet audio cards, such as Merging Hapi, allow direct point-to-point ethernet connection to a PC, so I could connect it to the second RJ45 in my computer.

 

Would using the second RJ45 in the motherboard undo the benefits brought by eR on the first RJ45 in the motherboard?

Does anybody know if Ravenna/Dante would work on "LAN#2" if "LAN#1" is limited to 100Mb/s?

 

Thank you!