The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Jud]

A couple of thoughts regarding power supplies:

 

- As I recall, Alex did not say the ER was immune to power supply changes, he said you’d have a tough time beating the included supply at something close to the price. Remember the included supply has the ground shunt for leakage current.

 

- Therefore, if you want to experiment with power supplies, my thinking is it’s best to do so with something that isn’t worse in terms of leakage current.

 

- @gstew has a setup he believes substantially improves on the included power supply, and it uses supplies that don’t have leakage current. But if I am estimating correctly, that setup is close to or over $1000. So I’d say that qualifies as something not very close in price to the included supply. 🙂

[Jud]

3 hours ago, PYP said:

1.  Has anyone tried an LPS 1.2 with the eR?  Improved SQ?

 

2.  How about experiments with the brand of ethernet cable going into the A side of the eR?  Make a difference or not?

 

If not, any suggestions for flexible ethernet patch cables?  The usual stuff make routing behind a crowded rack difficult.

 

Thanks.  

For LPS-1.2, see the original post in this topic.

 

Regarding Ethernet cables, cables that meet spec on the A side should not make a difference. For flexible cables, @lmitche, source of many excellent recommendations, has mentioned these:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Monoprice-SlimRun-Cat6A-Ethernet-Patch/dp/B01BGV2TAA/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=monoprice+slimrun+ethernet&qid=1574631738&sr=8-3
 

(They also come in 5-packs and singles, different lengths, and a variety of colors.)

[Jud]

17 hours ago, gstew said:

Honestly, after getting my ER in and through a couple hundred hours of run-time, things sound so good I've lost my will to try different things out with it and have instead been focused on listening to music

 

This^.

[Jud]

18 minutes ago, thyname said:

Guys, if budget allows, try Synergistic Research Atmosphere X Reference Ethernet cables. I promise you, it will be your last Ethernet Cable you will ever need. That is of course, if you cannot afford the Galileo SX 😁 (I cannot) 

 

For me it would certainly be the last - my wife would kill me!

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hi Bricki,

 

I haven't compared the Cable Matters (CM) Cat 8 to my diy Supra 8 cable. The connectors on that cable are dodgy, and I've never trusted that the terminations are done correctly. Given this, such a test doesn't make sense. Perhaps someone else with a Supra Cat 8 can have a go. I can say that nothing heard here before has come close to the CM Cat 8 including the Supra.

 

Frankly the sensitivity of my current rig to this part of the chain means that previous bottlenecks have been diminished and the cable is now the constraint. That's progress.

 

SQ is very clear, focused with a kind of density not observed before. I wouldn't called it layered. Deep would be a better description.

 

I am looking forward to further break-in.

 

Larry

 

Ordered these (1m length), because heck, they're cheap. Was considering blue, but for some odd reason black was available a day earlier, so I went with that.

 

What are they like in terms of weight and flexibility? I've still got some concerns regarding torsion on my Ethernet connections, so would be happier if they were somewhat flexible in a 1m length. But if I like what I hear, I'll just keep them in the system and be careful.

[Jud]

After having read the user manual a bit, I have a question: Let's assume (though I haven't yet got the cables and tested with a multimeter) the Cable Matters Cat 8 patch cable metal connectors are shield-tied at both ends.

 

My system is as follows: Modem to router to ER to microRendu to IsoREGEN to DAC. In each case there is only one Ethernet or (to the IsoREGEN and DAC) USB connection. ER, microRendu, and IsoREGEN are powered by UpTone ground shunted SMPSs. The DAC is powered by an LPS-1 energized by another UpTone ground shunted SMPS. Modem and router are powered by their own SMPSs.

 

I understand the "B" side Ethernet connection from the EtherREGEN to the microRendu is not a concern regarding leakage loops. What I wondered was whether using cables with continuity through the shields for the single "A" side connection between the router and the EtherRegen, and/or the connection between modem and router, would pose a concern regarding leakage loops in this configuration.

[Jud]

10 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

Very good question.

All Ethernet devices have transformers on the signal lines which are supposed to prevent traditional ground loops, low frequency leakage and other electrical "muck" from winding up on the data lines. When you use end to end tied cable you you MAY be directly connecting the ground planes of devices together. Some devices have the shield of the jack connected through a cap to the ground plane of the device, some do not. If the cap is there you do not get a full galvanic connection but many types of signals will go right through the cap.

 

So in essence you are bypassing a lot of the isolation that is designed into the system. Whether this is going to cause a problem again depends on your setup. Do you have something connected to the A side that is important (maybe a TV or receiver etc), then using  end to end tied cables for connections to the A side devices may yield compromised performance. If all you have on the A side are things such as a router and a NAS, it may not matter.

 

Unfortunately there is no hard and fast rule here, you may find that the "better" cables attributes are mitigated by the shield tied configuration in some configurations. The only way to find that out is to try.

 

John S.

 

Two follow-up questions:

 

- Will the UpTone ground shunted SMPS power a device using a 12V 2.5A power supply, and what about a 12V 1.5A device?

 

- Would powering my modem and router with the UpTone SMPSs possibly help at all in my configuration (it would mean all Ethernet-connected devices would be using the ground-shunted power supplies)? Or still the same answer, try and see if it helps?

[Jud]

3 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

If someone wants me to tell them whether they should spend $1000 on a specific cable I simply cannot do that.

 

Thanks John. I should hasten to say for anyone considering experimenting with cables, in this case the Cable Matters Cat 8 in the 1 meter length is $12, and I assume eliminating ground continuity even if the shields are tied is a matter of a little tape.

 

Thanks for considering my questions. I know at this point you don't have the spare bandwidth for anything complex. And thank you also for pointing out how complex the apparently simple matters of cabling and powering a handful of components can become. I've often wondered whether circuit simulation software might be adapted for this purpose.

[Jud]

Just bought 3 Cable Matters Cat 8 1m cables, and after quite a bit of comparative listening this evening, I surprisingly find I like the sound with the Slimrun Cat 6a more, at least in my system.

 

To whoever has tried the Cable Matters Cat 8: Did the cable go through a break-in period? Did it sound better than the other cables you'd tried as soon as you installed it?

 

If things remain as they are I'll possibly offer the new cables for sale to whoever here might like them.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Hi Uwe,

 

thanks for reporting, seems to be a nice device.

It is a pity that is does not offer an USB-C output or adapter for powering a new Apple MBP.

 

Matt

 

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07XZ7Q2N7/ref=sspa_mw_detail_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Jud]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

How did the cat 8 cable work out?

 

Still letting it run. Some time this weekend I'll compare it to the Slimrun again.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Still letting it run. Some time this weekend I'll compare it to the Slimrun again.

 

More difficult to choose a preference now. Each seems to have advantages. Have the Cat 8 back in the system and letting it run again.

[Jud]

On 12/21/2019 at 10:45 PM, Jud said:

 

More difficult to choose a preference now. Each seems to have advantages. Have the Cat 8 back in the system and letting it run again.

 

After a few more days, did a comparison again. Now prefer the Cable Matters Cat 8. Both are good on the low end; the Cable Matters seems more open at the top. (Always thought it was, but the low end has come through more after some time in the system.)

[Jud]

8 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

Hi Jud,

Have you tested the supra cat8?

 

Nope. And no particular desire to keep rolling cables. I'm happy.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, alsterfan said:

Hi Jud,

Where did you buy this cable? I didn´t find a way to buy it in Germany.

 

Hi Uwe. I bought the cable from Amazon US, but didn't see it in a quick search of Amazon.de. And Cable Matters' own store says they're out of stock (I only checked the 1m).

 

 

[Jud]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:20 PM, JohnSwenson said:

Several people have stated that the ER driven by a 2960 sounds better than the ER directly into a router.

Although at least a couple of people, of whom I'm one, have experienced and stated the reverse: In my system I prefer the sound with the ER fed directly by the router, rather than a Cisco 2960 between the router and ER. I speculated, but don't know, that this might be due to the Cisco's internal SMPS kicking back noise into the rest of the system.

[Jud]

Got an email about this 🙂:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G9SGX6S/ref=pe_3730140_464704700_em_1p_1_lm

 

 

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jud,

 

Are you going to give these a try?

 

I'm happy with the Cable Matters Cat 8 and done experimenting with cables for now.  With the new Cat 8 and a bunch of new post Roon 1.7 Audiolinux tweaks SQ is the best ever here.

 

Nevertheless, I am always interested in the experience of others.

 

 

Mayyybeee, at some point in the future. I liked their Cat 6a, and these are not expensive. So let's see what @BCRich and anyone else who decides to try them might think.

 

But like you, at this point I'm happy. I posted the link for anyone else who might be curious.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Mike Rubin said:

Okay, I am a little lost now.  I am new to the ethernet cable shuffle and, in anticipation of the arrival of my ER, I bought one of the Cable Matters CAT8's from Amazon, to replace a Blue Jean CAT6A between the wall and a Sonore Optical Module.  It arrived next day and I noticed that it had metal RJ45 make ends rather than the plastic that is on every other ethernet cable I ever have seen. 

 

I recall vaguely something in the Sonore forum pages that were to the effect of "never use metal RJ45 connectors in an audio setup." I couldn't find relevant posts but decided that enough of you are using Rendus of one sort or another that any bad news about metal would appear here in the discussion of these CAT8's.

 

I went ahead and plugged in the new cable.  It certainly worked as a signal cable without exploding any of my equipment. I also listened to it for a short while.  Sounds pretty much the same as before thus far, which is pretty good, so I am not complaining, especially considering the price of the experiment. 

 

I continue to be concerned, though, that the metal connectors might destroy equipment or SQ in some way. The post above this one refers to coating the ends with nail polish.  Is this to address a particular issue and, if it is, do I need to get an untreated cable with metal ends out of the system? 

 

Let's be specific rather than general, about both what you have asked and something else. The following is to the best of my recollection and understanding, and I will be grateful for corrections if I am wrong.

 

What you have asked: @Superdad has mentioned that if an Ethernet cable with the shields tied (Cat 8 w/metal connectors, for example) is used on the downstream side of the ER (for most people this will be the "B" side; this also assumes if you are using the "A" side as the downstream, you do not have more than one connection on that downstream side), no leakage current will flow in this situation.

 

Where you don't want the shields tied, and therefore want to use cables with non-metal connectors, or use tape or nail polish or some other means of breaking the connection, is on the upstream side of the ER (usually the "A" side), because in that situation the shield tied to ground can cause leakage current to flow.

 

* * *

 

Now, regarding something I haven't seen discussed, categories of Ethernet cables: To the best of my recollection, the Cat8 spec allows for faster speeds than Cat7, which allows for faster speeds than Cat6/6a, so *in general* Cat8 cables will have better specs for noise, interference, etc. *However*, I do seem to recall there is at least one type of crosstalk where the Cat7 spec is better than the Cat8 spec. I don't know whether any of these specs is really meaningful when talking about a relatively slow (100Mbps) connection in an audio system.

[Jud]

On 1/5/2020 at 2:50 AM, kennyb123 said:

How long has it taken for the Cable Matters CAT8 to burn in?  There were about 12 hours of constant music playback through it prior to my start of listening this morning.  At first it sounded surprisingly good.  Ultimately I found myself agitated by something it was doing - so I switched back to my regular cable, WW Starlight.  Whatever had been bothering me was gone and the sound quality overall was better.  I'll next try to let it run in somewhere further from my system so I don't have to sit through that again.  Just curious how long I should give it.

For me, unusually long. I’d give it a good 4 days.

[Jud]

From fiber back to inexpensive copper:

 

I liked the sound with the Cable Matters Cat 8. But there was also something from the Monoprice Cat 6a cables, perhaps a bit of intimacy in the musical presentation, that I missed. So I thought that since the Monoprice Cat 8 cables are quite inexpensive, I'd give them a try to see if I might achieve the best of both worlds. With the Monoprice Cat 8 I immediately felt the sense of intimacy had returned, without the defect of the Cat 6a in comparison to the Cable Matters, which is that the Cable Matters had done such a nice job of presenting top end and voices. The Monoprice Cat 8 in my system does a very nice job of that.

 

Everything sounded so nice I thought I'd try to make it even better, so I did some experiments with moving power plugs around and bringing back an old MIT Z-1 into the system while I turned the volume up with no music and listened for noise at the speakers. When noise was at an absolute minimum I put the music back on, and I'm tremendously pleased.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

 

By "intimacy" do you mean a greater sense of being in the same room as the musicians?  

Yes, that’s the result. I’d like to avoid using frequency-based terms because that’s really more appropriate for analog. But we haven’t developed very precise language for digital even after 35 years (quick, what does jitter sound like?), so I’m searching for necessarily imprecise terms that will convey how I feel when I’m listening, more than actually describing the sound itself. I listened to a song from an older Alison Krauss album a day or two ago, and I swear I could picture her bee-stung lips moving to form the words.

[Jud]

Also, I must report I am foot-tapping like crazy. 😀

[Jud]

2 hours ago, Johnnydev said:

Hi JUD,

very interesting, did you have tried the supra cat8? 

 

Nope. Can't try everything. 🙂

[Jud]

5 hours ago, Lucie said:

Some findings about upstream changes:

 

My modem/router (made mandatory by my internet provider Ziggo, here in The Netherlands, a Compal CH7465LG) never seemed a very audiophile part in the chain. In forums and tests I’ve read a lot of times that the modem doesn’t play a roll in sound quality. That’s why I never experimented with it. It only has an iFi iPurifier2 after its SMPS, since a year or so. I can’t remember having heard any effect on the sound.

Because my sBooster LPS on ER did not give a good result (slightly less resolution), I had plans to sell it. But then I came up with the (at that moment seemingly silly) idea of trying it on the Compal. Immediately audible result in resolution! My wife heard it right away when she came into the room. Was it better? Unlike my wife, I like higher resolution in general, but I also found the high tones a bit sharp at the edges (test: Chet Baker, “Chet”: Alone together, both the trumpet and the saxophone). No matter the judgement, what is very clear is that modem (so "upstream") does have an effect in my system. To me that is, or rather was surprising.

Having determined this, I bought a decent cable from the “wall” to the Compal: I went from a 1.99 euros standard cable provided by Ziggo to a better, but still very cheap, Clicktronic f-connector coax cable (13.99 euros, just the most expensive Ziggo-approved cable I could find). The sharpness disappeared, immediately audible, the soundstage even widened a bit more. These may be fairly unusual findings, but I would recommend and encourage anyone to experiment upstream in the chain. Happy listening!

 

Streaming only: Tidal and Qobuz

Short system configuration (leaving out the power regenerators and power supplies):

Compal>Supra cat 7>into ER>

Roon Nucleus>AQ Vodka>into ER

ER out>AQ Vodka>Naim NDX2>Chord reference RCA>Accuphase E-600>AQ Rocket 88>Audio Physic Avanti

 

3 hours ago, soares said:

Same evaluation here! I am feeding my router with a HDplex. Even the PQ of my WiFi Apple TV have improved. 🙂

 

Actually not surprising. While the ER certainly seems to help mightily with what's coming through the Ethernet cable, remember noise can come from the power side of the system. While Uptone's SMPS has a ground shunt to get rid of noise, this may not be the case with upstream modems, for example. This is possibly why I think my system did not sound as good with a Cisco switch feeding the ER via optical, versus the ER on its own - the Cisco was being powered by its internal SMPS.