The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[MarkusBarkus]

On 7/25/2020 at 8:15 PM, Vangelis said:

I heard about it from the cable company.

FYI re: Orange Fuses:

https://www.thecableco.com/synergistic-research-s-orange-fuses-buy-2-get-1-free

[MarkusBarkus]

@robbbby You may have seen Blue Jeans Cable or BJC noted in your reading assignment. I have used them for cabling, as have many others. They are affordable and reliable. 
 

The site is a good source of info too. Service is fast and reliable.

[MarkusBarkus]

...I was afraid the fiber optic connection wouldn't like it. 😉

[MarkusBarkus]

https://store.steoil.com/mineral-oil-pc-kit/

[MarkusBarkus]

How about Triode Wirelabs "Freedom" ethernet cable for $250.00? Very nice cable, IMO.

https://triodewirelabs.com/product/freedom-ethernet-cable/

[MarkusBarkus]

6 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Are you using the stock power supplies for your Chord devices?  I ask only because if the answer is yes that would be what I'd look at ahead of that additional switch.

I agree with @kennyb123 re: power supplies for Chord gear.
 

And you could use a more basic FMC instead of the SoTM switch to manage budget and still add the FO break early in your signal flow. You'd need the FO cable and SFPs anyway, so that's a wash. 

[MarkusBarkus]

14 minutes ago, chungjh said:

On 1/12/2021 at 11:08 AM, R1200CL said:

 

Is there now a consensus that the fiber in the chain noticeably improves the SQ?

A consensus probably depends on how many, and who replies.
 

I do not have two eReGens, I have one. I have had fiber in my system for many months, in various configurations: 10Gtek FMCs, eRG, Sonore OM, two Ciscos, PF Buffalo. 
 

Regardless of the configuration, IMO fiber is a net-plus in SQ in my system.
 

I just 15 minutes ago pulled a Corning run the ISP gave me so when they come tomorrow for a new fiber service, they breech the structure, hang their ONT inside, plug and play.
 

And I get the cable run where and how I want it. Glad to do the work for them.

 

I will then have a dedicated, audio only, fiber service. That's how much I like fiber. I'll keep the cable ISP for TV and home/phone stuff.

[MarkusBarkus]

Service is Greenlight fiber optic in Rochester, NY. 

[MarkusBarkus]

33 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

Do you have two ISP’s ?

Yes, sir. Spectrum for Internet/WiFi things in the house and cable TV.
 

Greenlight fiber optic for audio...as of tomorrow.

 

I'll have to tweak the WiFi channels for best results, I suppose. I am not sure if I can or need to turn off ports in the new/second router to improve performance. 

[MarkusBarkus]

Yes, I am aware of the above info re: switches, rules, vlans, etc. I am adding a second service instead. 
 

Re: install, ISP installs per usual. Fiber is just this week connecting to this neighborhood. Digging was completed over the past month. 

[MarkusBarkus]

@Rsbrsvp You said 101, so... 

 

As others have said, and you can search here for a lot of info on fiber optic usage in the audio chain. 
 

Boiled down: the wavelength of the transceivers (SFPs) you get must match at both ends. And the fiber cable should meet the same wavelength spec.

Although I have mixed brands of the same wavelength, it's probably better for you to keep things uniform to avoid possible issues and troubleshooting headaches.

 

Most people here seem to favor Single Mode (SM) fiber. Multimode (MM) also exists. MM will usually be orange; SM probably yellow. 
 

The differences are in the internal construction of the cable, the wavelength of the light, and the type of laser used to send that light.

 

MM is rated for shorter distances (a few 100 meters, IIRC) while SM will go for miles.

Both work well for audio. I have runs of MM, SM, Cat6a and hot-rodded ethernet cable for testing. I didn't hear a dif SM or MM. It's only ~35'/12m cable run.

 

Some speculate that using SM modules requires attenuation, although many use them without it, myself included. I don't need any more plugs and devices in the chain.

Will the receiving SFP become saturated with too much light? Perhaps theoretically. Practically??

 

If you're not running a multi-kilometer link, you could use either, in the event you have trouble sourcing SM.

 

Just be sure it all matches wavelength. As noted by others: Cable=>SFP=>device on both ends. 
 

The SFPs are small, so handling them may take a little practice.
 

To install, you have to give them a firm push into the device "outlet."

 

Use that little metal "bail" to pull them out of devices. 
 

For the cable, you have to remove the little plastic covers on the ends of the connectors. These protect the actual glass cable ends. Chance of dropping one of them and losing it behind your gear is 50/50. 😉
 

Don't touch the ends of the cable, as fingerprint smudges are not helpful here. And your next post will be asking about how to polish fiber optic cable.

 

Also, the cable connectors can be a little finicky. You have to depress the top little levers to insert into the SFP. Opposite to remove: Depress and pull. 
 

Good luck. Lots of info here and people to help. 

I use Planet SFPs:

Cable for these SFPs:

Used in OM:

Open SFP outlet in EReGen:

[MarkusBarkus]

Hello @Rsbrsvp. I rifled back through your questions to see what I may have missed. 
 

You are getting good info re: adding fiber optic to your system, but I think the community is responding to individual questions, but without a top-level statement of your objective, and maybe a network diagram. 

 

Maybe we could help more with a diagram...even if you sketch something on paper and take a pic. That make sense?

 

Apologies to others if you get the big picture here. I feel like the picture is changing a bit, so our (my) replies aren't refined enough to help much. Cheers... 

[MarkusBarkus]

1 hour ago, acousticsguru said:

 I have no idea why people claim a longer one would sound better? It's an optical cable.

I have read comments that state some people use the extra miles of cable as you suggest: for attenuation. 
 

I believe the technical term for this is an "optical illusion."

[MarkusBarkus]

22 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

I would actually advise all new EtherRegen buyers, to purchase the 50 ohm version. 

...that's a pretty strong recommendation based on so many assumptions. 
 

FWIW: I would recommend anyone figure out--perhaps even draw out on a piece of paper--what their network will look like, and perhaps specifically what they are trying to achieve (what they think is a weak link, or opportunity for improvement), by adding any new equipment.

 

I recognize it's a hobby and tinkering is part of that, but when one keeps adding new bits without a top-level objective, you get these Frankenstein network-chains, and it can involve a lot of spending for questionable improvement. 
 

You don't need Visio or even a free-wear drawing program, you can map it out on paper to refine and solidify your network. Or you can just guess, buy stuff and hook it up and keep changing things, if that's your flavor of fun.

[MarkusBarkus]

FWIW: I place components where they fit and are safe and stable, minimizing heat, vibration, etc. and then I cable them.

I use quality cable that is sensibly long enough to reach, and not have stress at connectors.

 

I read all the tech/geeky info I can get my eyes on, but finally, if I need three feet of cable to connect things, I can't worry that theoretically 1.5 feet would be better.
 

In all the posts, and outside docs, I don't recall any factual data on SQ and attenuators.
 

Rest assured, someone will jump in if I've "misspoke."

Some people seem to use them, some don't. BTW: this supposes we're discussing Single Mode fiber.

 

I don't use attenuators on a SM 10m/35' fiber run, FWIW. I also did not really notice a dif in SQ between MM and SM in my location/my gear/ears. Good Luck!

[MarkusBarkus]

I have had SFP cages up, down and sideways.

No offense intended at all, but sometimes the cable and transceivers need more pressure when inserted than I would have thought reasonable.

 

Type and wavelength are all compatible, end-to-end, right? 
 

You removed the little caps on the cable, and the cable and SFPs inserted all the way, do you think?

You could use your cell camera on the streamer end of the cable to look for signal (with everything else hooked up). You would at least know if there is signal to your device.

 

It's infra-red, so not visible to the (human) eye. 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...fresh off an hour of network frustration after disconnecting a single ethernet cable, may I humbly suggest powering down the network-side gear, waiting a minute of two, and restarting from the source (modem) forward, with a brief wait to ensure a good handshake up the chain? Good luck to you... 

[MarkusBarkus]

...there are several knowledgeable people here (I am not saying I am one of them) who avoid shielded network cables altogether, which makes it simpler to manage. 
 

Top level, I think we could summarize that we are trying to avoid multiple paths for very small and unwanted currents to move among/between our devices and cables.
 

We want to facilitate the desired signals as best we can, while reducing the unwanted signals--as best we can.
 

It can be confusing, for sure.
 

I think you might have the same concerns with the SotM switch, wouldn't you? It may seem to be an eRG "thing" because those guys put out a lot of content regarding how things work--and you're on one of "their" threads. But it's not unique to their products. It's an electrical characteristic to be managed for such products. 
 

Welcome to hi-end audio tweaking! 

[MarkusBarkus]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

I hope this clears up the confusion.

...for about a half-hour, looks like. You're a prince for providing that level of detail, John. Thanks to you and Alex for your guidance and intelligence on this topic. Cheers...

[MarkusBarkus]

...the light is "bouncing around" in the single mode cable too, it just has different "bounce" characteristics.
 

Sure, the SM lasers are more powerful/coherent, the cable core narrower/more constraining, but these cables are snaked around through walls, etc. and not in a straight line. 
 

It's not clear to me why folks seem to prefer SM over MM for audio. But, just because I didn't hear a reliable difference, doesn't mean others don't/won't. I'm on SM fiber, it should be noted.
 

I ordered a couple of SFP+ transceivers to test, which is at the heart of the latest dust-up regarding optical stuff. Will it make an audible difference? Will it even work? I'll find out! 

[MarkusBarkus]

11 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I like to hear the arguments about too bright.

I would too. I will try to find some actual technical info on it. I suspect phone calls may be required. We have a lot of photonics research here in upstate NY.

I recall posting previously that statements about "over-bright" lasers and SFP "burnout" seemed to me to be anecdotal in nature. "Swamping" or "over-saturating" the transceivers.

Also, coiling a bit of extra cable wouldn't do much to attenuate a laser signal moving at the speed of light, also IMO.

 

I suspect that if the receivers are designed/built to accept a certain wavelength and type of laser, they would not be overwhelmed by closer proximity. I am not an expert on lasers, BTW. 
 

All of the info I see is more about retaining signal integrity/intensity over distance and in bending applications by improving the sheathing/cladding materials, creating "moats" or "trenches" to redirect light back toward the core. No one seems worried about too much signal, albeit with the previous caveats of matching wavelengths, types, etc. 

 

I think it is more likely the case that because SM components cost a bit more, and are desired/required to allow signal integrity across longer distances, practical engineering would not recommend them for short runs, since MM is designed and works well for that purpose. 
 

As usual, as a community, audio enthusiasts are off-piste and testing off-label usages in the jungles of Audioland . Bravo audio experimenters! 

[MarkusBarkus]

4 hours ago, James Stephens said:

The Taiko Audio contingent tested a bunch of SFP's

Ha! That is a moving target. I have the "Planets" in mine--also recommended. Variously, Finisars and Startechs have been in and out of favor. 
 

Actually, I think @kennyb123has "rolled" several SFPs to compare and has good feedback.
 

I would like, and plan to try, the Finisar SFP+ in the Taiko. I ping-ed Emile Bok to see if he has any cautions there--other than, X sounds better. I have only fed it via SM optical, SFPs. 

[MarkusBarkus]

12 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

That's true only if you live north of the equator.  It's the opposite direction otherwise.

 

(that was a joke)

...you never know how folks will take a joke, right! Someone posted on another forum that the silver Chord Dave had a brighter sound; the black anodized case sounded darker. OMG--it became an issue. Who wouldathought? 
 

Full disclosure: I have the silver Dave, as I prefer a "cleaner" sound. 😉

[MarkusBarkus]

 

22 minutes ago, agladstone said:

Any suggestions for the B side of ER that aren’t outrageous in price (under $400 USD)?

...many would consider 400 US very outrageous! That said, a couple of good options I have used and like:

https://www.sablonaudio.com/digital

and the grossly under-loved option from Triode Wire Labs:

https://triodewirelabs.com/product/freedom-ethernet-cable/

 

Additional: Sablon is fairly stiff. TWL is very compliant. Happy Hunting!

[MarkusBarkus]

17 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

But you can test with a Cisco 2960 upfront with fiber maybe.

...and you can put a kitten in the oven, but that won't make it a biscuit.