The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[emailists]

BigAimc here is a picture of my temp setup, just sitting on the floor next to the rack for now.

 

I found a local shop that deals with small quantities of metal.  I might stop in and see if I can have them fabricate some kind of case or just the inner support rails out of copper.  

 

[Nenon]

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

The components that generate heat in the ER have no contact with the case, via heat transfer pads or something. So between the heat generating components, and most of them have heatsinks on top of them, is air. Air does not conduct heat very well so if you cool the ER with heatsink imo you are just cooling the case, not the components on the pcb. 
If you want to cool the inside of the ER you have let out the “hot” air, so dril holes so cooler air can get in and hot air out. Or you can unscrew the front and screw it back with washers in between the front and the case. Both sides maybe.

 

But what is hot? My ER case is 40C. The oscillator inside the ER likes a “hot” stable temperature. Maybe the specs of the oscillator gives a ideal temperature.

Wasn’t there a comment from Alex that the case acts as a heatsink? 

[Dutch]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

Wasn’t there a comment from Alex that the case acts as a heatsink? 

It’s in the manual and it was repeated elsewhere as well.

 

The manual bit:

 

Locating the EtherREGEN:
During use, it is normal for the case of the EtherREGEN to become somewhat hot. 48~52C (118~126F), depending on room air temperature is to be expected. Do not be concerned about the heat. Even when hot, all parts are operating at less than half their thermal ratings. The case is the heat-sink. Please locate the EtherREGEN on a shelf where air can flow under and around it. If the heat of the case bothers you, standing it on edge will permit more airflow and will lower the case temperature by a few degrees. Do not stack other devices under or on top of the EtherREGEN.

[RickyV]

51 minutes ago, Dutch said:

It’s in the manual and it was repeated elsewhere as well.

 

The manual bit:

 

Locating the EtherREGEN:
During use, it is normal for the case of the EtherREGEN to become somewhat hot. 48~52C (118~126F), depending on room air temperature is to be expected. Do not be concerned about the heat. Even when hot, all parts are operating at less than half their thermal ratings. The case is the heat-sink. Please locate the EtherREGEN on a shelf where air can flow under and around it. If the heat of the case bothers you, standing it on edge will permit more airflow and will lower the case temperature by a few degrees. Do not stack other devices under or on top of the EtherREGEN.

Hi Dutch, you have opened up your ER for s.w. update right? Did you see any heat transferring pads between the casing and any components? It could be a soft silicone type of material.

 

[Nenon]

5 hours ago, emailists said:

I can try try some alternative weights when I can find an appropriate one around the house.

 

 

How about putting something between the ER and the weight (i.e. a thick carton, plastic, rubber, etc.)? This way the weight would not act as a heatsink.

[soares]

While using an old sBooster MKI didn’t change the SQ of my system, the same sBooster with a new ultra filter increased the eR SQ. 

Not sure about the results from a new MKII. I would say yes😆

[Jud]

On 12/29/2019 at 5:20 PM, JohnSwenson said:

Several people have stated that the ER driven by a 2960 sounds better than the ER directly into a router.

Although at least a couple of people, of whom I'm one, have experienced and stated the reverse: In my system I prefer the sound with the ER fed directly by the router, rather than a Cisco 2960 between the router and ER. I speculated, but don't know, that this might be due to the Cisco's internal SMPS kicking back noise into the rest of the system.

[JohnSwenson]

There has been some discussions about thermal issue with the ER and I'd like to go into a little detail about how this all works. There is a lot of partial understanding of this that can cause people to make bad decisions. (BTW this is generic, ALL electronics follows this).

 

To see how the system works thermally start at the outside of the case, its thermal properties are by far the biggest factor, the internal details have very little to do with it. (I know that sounds bizarre , but it's true).  What matters for a case like the ER which is a closed case made out of aluminum, which reaches an equilibrium where the entire case is all at almost the same temperature, is how how well the case gets rid of the heat AND the total power being generated inside the case.

 

This type of case has two primary means of getting rid of heat: IR radiation and air movement in contact with the surface. Without a fan blowing air across the surface both of these are heavily determined by the temperature of the case. As the temperature goes up more heat goes out through IR, and more air convection happens. BTW in this particular case, the IR is the biggest contributor to getting the heat out, not air. So what happens is the case reaches a temperature that produce IR and convection power that equals the total amount of power generated by the circuit. That's it. The temperature of the case has nothing to do with the internal structure, whether things are connected by metal to the case or just air etc. NONE of that matters for case temperature. It is entirely the equilibrium temperature where internal heat flow matches external heat flow.

 

The structure INSIDE does matter for the temperature of the board though. The temperature of the board is again an equilibrium of the heat coming from the board and how efficient the board can get heat to the case. We know from thermodynamics that the board HAS to be hotter than the inside of the case, how much hotter depends on the hat transfer efficiency of the board. It turns out that the common PC board is actually pretty good at doing this, and most of it is IR radiation not air. It turns out that for a system like the ER the board temperature is only a degree or so hotter than the case! Even when there is just air between them! There is no need for direct metal to case connections, it would only drop the board temperature by a fraction of a degree.

 

This only works when most of the heat being generated by the devices on the board gets coupled well to the board and the internal power and ground planes do a good job of spreading the heat around throughout the board. in the ER case it is a six layer board with a LOT of P/G planes that do a VERY good job of this.

 

The only issue is that some of the small devices do not couple well into the board, their size is so small they just can't transfer their heat dissipation well into the board. Most of the devices on the board DO couple well and the device temperatures are only a few degrees hotter than the board. BUT a few of them don't couple well and they are much hotter than the board. These are the ones that have the heatsinks, this adds another path to get the heat from the device to the case (again IR and convection) The result is these devices are quite a bit cooler then they would be without the heatsink. (they still are hotter than the board, but not by much) Note these internal heatsinks do not change the case temperature one bit, the total heat stays the same, they just lower the temperature of certain devices that have a hard time getting their heat into the board.

 

We spent a lot of work on this, analyzing, measuring, trying different things etc. The result is a well integrated thermal system where every device runs at well below its thermal rating. Nothing you could do on the inside will make the parts run any cooler. The only thing that really matters is getting the case itself cooler, external heat sinks, external air flow etc. But you have to do a LOT of this to make a big difference since a large percentage of the total case heat flow comes from IR, air flow changes only make a fairly small change in the total.

 

One very important thing to understand is that the IR emission from a black surface is vastly greater than from a bare metal surface, so putting a bare metal heatsink on top of an ER will actually increase the  temperature of the case because you are almost stopping the IR emission. If you DO use a heatsink make sure it is black!

 

This brings up another interesting way to cool the thing, put a black thick aluminum plate under the ER, the bottom will transfer a lot of heat to the plate through IR, which then spreads out through the plate into the environment. You could also make that into a nice anti vibration platform.

 

The temperature inside the case does not inherently matter to the oscillator, but it DOES affect the thermal sensitivity. All crystal oscillators have a sensitivity to temperature change, but it is not constant. At a certain temperature the temperature coefficient is zero. Far away from that temperature small changes in temperature make a fairly big change in frequency. The zero point for the oscillators we use are a little above common room temperature, so at the temperature they are at inside the case they are definitely above the zero point so they become somewhat sensitive to temperature changes. This is why reaching thermal equilibrium is quite important. You want to keep the temperature stable because the oscillator is sensitive to temperature change. The cooler the case is the less this sensitivity is.

 

There you go, far more than you ever wanted to know about thermal flow and electronics.

 

John S.

[alsterfan]

 

Hi John,

Thank you so much for the clarification concerning the thermal issue.

Best wishes,

Uwe

[octaviars]

Thanks @JohnSwenson for the answers.

 

I use two heatsinks on my eR as it is mounted in a cabinet that is around 30C. Before I added the heatsinks the eR was around 48-49C on the case (I use a calibrated IR thermometer) and with the heatsink the case is around 40C so I think this soulution works ok..

 

I use one of the mountingscrews for the sidepanel as a referencepoint so the before and after measurements is from the exact same point.

 

 

[Ricardo007]

Just a little feedback about cablematters ethernet cables. I put 2 of them for the wifi leg of my system (separated normally from my audio streaming system which is ethernet not wifi).

I realized a little experience using exceptionnaly wifi 5ghz from my ubiquity unify AC Pro Access Point to stream audio (instead of streaming by ethernet). The AP is PoE and needs 2 ethernet cables one from the second Cisco switch (connected to main router on a specific separate from audio LAN)) and one to antenna. Big surprise was the vast improvment in SQ over standard no name ethernet cables. Quality may be better than ethernet even with ER but still burnin... and not yet optimized (PSU and its fuse, vibration control)

Thanks @Imitche for this recommendation.

[soares]

12 hours ago, Jud said:

Although at least a couple of people, of whom I'm one, have experienced and stated the reverse: In my system I prefer the sound with the ER fed directly by the router, rather than a Cisco 2960 between the router and ER. I speculated, but don't know, that this might be due to the Cisco's internal SMPS kicking back noise into the rest of the system.

The same here Jud! Need to try a second Cisco 😄

[BigAlMc]

8 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

There you go, far more than you ever wanted to know about thermal flow and electronics.

 

Agreed. Far more than I ever wanted to know about thermal flow!

 

But thanks all the same John and happy new year to you. 

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Jud]

Got an email about this 🙂:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G9SGX6S/ref=pe_3730140_464704700_em_1p_1_lm

 

 

[alsterfan]

Hi Jud,

Did you mention the Monoprize Cable as an alternative for your Cable Matters Cat 8 cable?

[BCRich]

16 hours ago, Jud said:

Got an email about this 🙂:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G9SGX6S/ref=pe_3730140_464704700_em_1p_1_lm

 

 

Don’t have my ER yet, ordered 5 of these to substitute for AQ Vodka & Diamond.

They will replace Vodka’s that go from Verizon ONT to Verizon Router and from Verizon Router to Eero Pro. The Diamond’s go from Pakedge Switch to Sonore Optical Module and from a Cisco Switch to a Mac Mini that runs HQ Player. I have another Mac Mini that I run Roon on, I missed that one. Will have to do a few more. I won’t have my ER until Feb. The question is do I hang on to the AQ cables to do a comparison?

 

All devices pertaining to my main audio system are now covered...

[lmitche]

16 hours ago, Jud said:

Got an email about this 🙂:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07G9SGX6S/ref=pe_3730140_464704700_em_1p_1_lm

 

 

Jud,

 

Are you going to give these a try?

 

I'm happy with the Cable Matters Cat 8 and done experimenting with cables for now.  With the new Cat 8 and a bunch of new post Roon 1.7 Audiolinux tweaks SQ is the best ever here.

 

Nevertheless, I am always interested in the experience of others.

 

[Jud]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jud,

 

Are you going to give these a try?

 

I'm happy with the Cable Matters Cat 8 and done experimenting with cables for now.  With the new Cat 8 and a bunch of new post Roon 1.7 Audiolinux tweaks SQ is the best ever here.

 

Nevertheless, I am always interested in the experience of others.

 

 

Mayyybeee, at some point in the future. I liked their Cat 6a, and these are not expensive. So let's see what @BCRich and anyone else who decides to try them might think.

 

But like you, at this point I'm happy. I posted the link for anyone else who might be curious.

[BCRich]

I was also considering the Ghent JSSG360 Ethernet cables as well as the Phasure ET^2, all of which are quite a bit more costly. May ultimately try one or the other in key spots. We.ll see....

Pretty much moot until I get my ER....

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Mayyybeee, at some point in the future. I liked their Cat 6a, and these are not expensive. So let's see what @BCRich and anyone else who decides to try them might think.

 

But like you, at this point I'm happy. I posted the link for anyone else who might be curious.

It still amazes me that cables can make such a big difference, especially on the digital side.

[ray-dude]

13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

It still amazes me that cables can make such a big difference, especially on the digital side.

 

+10000

 

Maddening to have something this audible without even a working physical theory (cable to optimized NUC to optimized TX Ultra for USB regeneration to DAC...that's a lot of optimization layers between the cable and my ears). Clearly the enhanced shielding of the CAT8 cables is making a difference.  Can the antenna effect to the streamer end point be that significant?

 

With a second Cable Matters CAT8 on hand, I just had to experiment.  I clipped the shield on one end of the cable, thinking I would prefer the clipped end on the NUC (I power my NUC with a battery for mains isolation).  Alas, another hypothesis shot down.  I preferred the clipped shield end on the ER side (at least so far)

 

All this reminds me of the random walk search a bunch of folks did with Lush^2 shield configurations.  Those with the Phasure ET^2 are in a much better position to investigate different shield configurations to suss out what may be going on.

 

[rickca]

15 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

I just had to experiment.

How did the clipped shield on one end sound compared to not clipping the shield?

[ray-dude]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

How did the clipped shield on one end sound compared to not clipping the shield?

 

Different (subtle) but I can't say (yet) if I'm hearing more real detail or more RF sparkle.  Taking one for the team with marathon listening sessions ("Sorry honey, I need to listen to music for 12 hours to audition this hacked up ethernet cable" ; ) 

 

Kidding aside, it all sounds absolutely lovely, so motivation for serious A/B critical listening is low, while motivation to binge listen to a bunch of Todd Garfinkle's amazing recordings is quite high (really enjoying "Mudejar" by Begona Olavide as I type this)

 

[kelvinwsy]

1. I am in the same situation. I am eagerly waiting for my Jan ER to be delivered. So looking over my ethernet cabling setup to prepare.

2. At present I use brand-less Cat 6 STP with no earthing and fitted with plastic end connectors. These have been hacked... Triple JSSG treatment with earth wire leading to one earth pin star ground connection. Each Cat 6 cable has at least 2 Ferrite cores maybe even more. 

3. The connection is from ISP modem to an ASUS 86 modem to a Netgear GS105 then to the SOTM Ultra Neo and Hqplayer Server PC. 

 

4. So let's try and switch with the Cat 8 cables which I have been using as POE cables. I pinched my wife's nail polish and gave the metal connectors at each end 4 coats over 2 evenings. (proper curing and hardening before the next coat) Tried it between the ASUS and the Netgear!

5. WHOA! What happened to the SQ - FLAT and complete collapse of the Sound stage!

That was on a weekday quick test. So out they came.

6. This weekend, I gave 1 Cat 8 cable the triple JSSG treatment with 5 Ferrite cores. Fitted it between the ASUS 86 and the Netgear GS105 - A quick test .... HMHM??? SQ definitely better than untreated but a quick swop back to the brandless hacked Cat 6 showed how bad the Cat 8 sounded.

7. I will burn in the signal connectors through a LAN connection and run Youtube at full blast before further comparision. I figure that maybe only the DC wires have been burnt in and the signal wires still virgin??? 

8. My theory is that I may have to rip out at least the metal connector on 1 end for the Cat 8 cable to sound good. Just painful to spoil such a lovely CAT 8 cable.

[Mike Rubin]

Okay, I am a little lost now.  I am new to the ethernet cable shuffle and, in anticipation of the arrival of my ER, I bought one of the Cable Matters CAT8's from Amazon, to replace a Blue Jean CAT6A between the wall and a Sonore Optical Module.  It arrived next day and I noticed that it had metal RJ45 make ends rather than the plastic that is on every other ethernet cable I ever have seen. 

 

I recall vaguely something in the Sonore forum pages that were to the effect of "never use metal RJ45 connectors in an audio setup." I couldn't find relevant posts but decided that enough of you are using Rendus of one sort or another that any bad news about metal would appear here in the discussion of these CAT8's.

 

I went ahead and plugged in the new cable.  It certainly worked as a signal cable without exploding any of my equipment. I also listened to it for a short while.  Sounds pretty much the same as before thus far, which is pretty good, so I am not complaining, especially considering the price of the experiment. 

 

I continue to be concerned, though, that the metal connectors might destroy equipment or SQ in some way. The post above this one refers to coating the ends with nail polish.  Is this to address a particular issue and, if it is, do I need to get an untreated cable with metal ends out of the system?