The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Mike Rubin]

EDIT:  Upon closer reading, it appears that Thotdoc believes there are differences between ethernet cables in this configuration, as well.

 

ORIGINAL POST:  This may have been addressed already, but, if it was, I missed it in scanning the nine pages above.  
 

I plan to run my existing 6 foot ethernet cable (Blue Jean CAT 6A) from my wall plate to the ER that I expect in January and then go via optical into an opticalRendu.  The wallplate is connected by CAT 6 to the router on the floor below.  Although the other ethernet drops in my house run through a 48 port Netgear SOHO unmanaged switch, this one bypasses the switch.  
 

Have any of you explored whether changing an ethernet cable into the B side makes a sonic difference when the ER is outputting optical on the A side?  It appears the consensus is that ethernet cables make a difference going the other way.

[Mike Rubin]

Okay, I am a little lost now.  I am new to the ethernet cable shuffle and, in anticipation of the arrival of my ER, I bought one of the Cable Matters CAT8's from Amazon, to replace a Blue Jean CAT6A between the wall and a Sonore Optical Module.  It arrived next day and I noticed that it had metal RJ45 make ends rather than the plastic that is on every other ethernet cable I ever have seen. 

 

I recall vaguely something in the Sonore forum pages that were to the effect of "never use metal RJ45 connectors in an audio setup." I couldn't find relevant posts but decided that enough of you are using Rendus of one sort or another that any bad news about metal would appear here in the discussion of these CAT8's.

 

I went ahead and plugged in the new cable.  It certainly worked as a signal cable without exploding any of my equipment. I also listened to it for a short while.  Sounds pretty much the same as before thus far, which is pretty good, so I am not complaining, especially considering the price of the experiment. 

 

I continue to be concerned, though, that the metal connectors might destroy equipment or SQ in some way. The post above this one refers to coating the ends with nail polish.  Is this to address a particular issue and, if it is, do I need to get an untreated cable with metal ends out of the system? 

[Mike Rubin]

25 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Let's be specific rather than general, about both what you have asked and something else. The following is to the best of my recollection and understanding, and I will be grateful for corrections if I am wrong.

 

What you have asked: @Superdad has mentioned that if an Ethernet cable with the shields tied (Cat 8 w/metal connectors, for example) is used on the downstream side of the ER (for most people this will be the "B" side; this also assumes if you are using the "A" side as the downstream, you do not have more than one connection on that downstream side), no leakage current will flow in this situation.

 

Where you don't want the shields tied, and therefore want to use cables with non-metal connectors, or use tape or nail polish or some other means of breaking the connection, is on the upstream side of the ER (usually the "A" side), because in that situation the shield tied to ground can cause leakage current to flow.

 

* * *

 

Now, regarding something I haven't seen discussed, categories of Ethernet cables: To the best of my recollection, the Cat8 spec allows for faster speeds than Cat7, which allows for faster speeds than Cat6/6a, so *in general* Cat8 cables will have better specs for noise, interference, etc. *However*, I do seem to recall there is at least one type of crosstalk where the Cat7 spec is better than the Cat8 spec. I don't know whether any of these specs is really meaningful when talking about a relatively slow (100Mbps) connection in an audio system.

My ethernet cable will be the B side connection and the A side will connect optically to the optical Rendu.  Sounds as though the metal ends won't matter. 

 

Then, again, I had no particular complaint about the Blue Jean CAT6A, either, so could drop that back in pretty easily. 

[Mike Rubin]

3 hours ago, Nicoben45 said:

You may use some Duelund dca 16 or 20 oiled tin copper wires, simple and good sounding choice.

I never have had Dueland-based power cables, but I use Dueland-based IC’s and USB cables.  To my ears, they’re incredible bang for a pretty low-cost buck in that application.  If someone’s making Duelund DC cables, I would love to try one.

[Mike Rubin]

I think I get where this thread is going, but please allow me to make sure I get this. If your optical connection is too short, you run the risk of overloading the receiver FMC if you don't use attenuators? 

 

If so, how short is "too short" before this becomes an issue? I currently am running one meter optical cables.  I am skeptical that I we would hear enough of a difference for me to invest a lot of time sorting out five versus seven versus ten db, but I am very concerned about overheating the FMC's in my optical Signature Rendu SE and the opticalModule that feeds my ultraRendu.  The possibility of shortening their lives scares me. 

[Mike Rubin]

Octaviars, I use the pictured TP-Link one in the EtherRegen and Sig rendu and Ubiquiti-branded compatibles between the TP-Link FMC and opticalModule. I use LC to LC multimode cables.

 

[Mike Rubin]

1 minute ago, Mike Rubin said:

 

Duplicate post.

[Mike Rubin]

5 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Your biggest risk comes when using Single Mode ER (40 Km) and ZX (80 Km) optics, which can overdrive and even burn inputs without sufficient attenuation.

 

There is no risk of burning Multi Mode optics like the ones you use with short cables.

 

Thanks very nuch.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Currently I have a cable modem connected to a router with Monoprice Cat 8; then the router connected to the ER with Monoprice Cat 6a with plastic connectors to avoid the "upstream" ground link to the ER. 

 

At some point probably between now and March, in place of the cable modem and router I will install a gateway (combined modem and router) with Wi-Fi 6 capability. https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/cable-modems-routers/cax80.aspx

 

Are shield-linked metal connectors required to achieve Cat 7 or Cat 8 specifications? Or to ask more specifically, does anyone know of any Cat 7 or Cat 8 cables with plastic connectors, or don't these exist? If they do exist, I might be interested in trying one between the gateway and the ER.

I am running CAT8 into the ER’s B side port and am coming out from an SFP using an optical cable.  Is that the equivalent for these purposes of what Jud is doing or am I subject to ground issues even though my CAT8 is upstream?  From an SQ perspective, I don’t know that I hear a significant difference between plastic-terminated CAT6A and metal-shielded CAT8 but I don’t know how ground faults would manifest in this setting.

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Whether the cable shielding is tied to the connectors (usually the case with Cat 7, Cat 8, and other shielded cables with metal connectors) doesn’t matter on the “downstream”/output side of the ER, as long as there is only one downstream/output cable.

 

On the “upstream”/input side, it is best not to have a cable with shielding tied to the connectors.

This still begs the question that I raised above, so please consider this a bump.  I am using the ER B to A, with only CAT8 coming into the B side and only optical going out from the A side.  It sounds fine to me - still breaking in my $10 Monoprice CAT8, and it already seems an improvement over Blue Jean 6A to my ears - but I have no problem reverting to 6A if I am creating ground issues in the system.  Any thoughts? 

[Mike Rubin]

16 minutes ago, Jud said:

No problem on the output side.

 

On the input side, just think of electricity as flowing in a circuit (which of course it does). The connection through the Monoprice cable will allow the cable and the portion of the ER before the “moat” to be involved in the flow of leakage current. Whether this might make any difference in your system, I don’t know.

Thanks, Jud.  Sounds as though I probably should revert back to 6A in this application, just to be safe.

[Mike Rubin]

49 minutes ago, lmitche said:

You are probably better off listening to both cables and making a decision on cat 6a vs. cat 8. Star ground schemes are used by lots of manufacturers between components so having a grounded cable running into the ER 'A' side could have benefits. Given this, it is best to use your ears.

 

Over here Cat 8 between my wifi extender and server sounds better then Cat 6A. The LPS powering the extender is ground shunted. The LPS powering the server is floating so there is one path to ground carried through the cat 8.

Thanks for responding.

 

One of the things I liked about the new Monoprice CAT8 (moreso than Cable Matters) was that it affected image width almost spectacularly in the few days it was in my system, which is attractive to me because my room’s layout and my speaker placement seem to box in the image.  I switched back to 6A just a few minutes ago and, immediate, I noticed the image return to its normal size.  That’s not the change I expected in CAT8, but I would gladly take it, even as a placebo, unless I am creating risk or problems elsewhere.

 

Each of these cables has been connected at one end to a plastic wall plate with CAT6 in the wall.  Its other end is connected to the ER’s metal B port.  The ER has the standard Uptone-branded SMPS powering it and the FMC connects to my rendu‘s optical port via fiber?  If the cable is metal tipped and grounded, what power issues am I facing if I use CAT8 rather than 6A for the ER in this application?

[Mike Rubin]

58 minutes ago, Ready4Audio said:

 

I just posted my listening impressions, and now want to explore whether or not to go down the rabbit hole of power supplied and cables.  I know a lot of these improvements are system dependent, but just interested in views of others as to whether these will be noticeable upgrades or just a very tiny improvement.  In my review I noted that EtherRegen gave another overall 5% improvement to my system.

 

To review:

 

My System:

 

A side

 

Asus Cable Modem > Monoprice slim run Cat 6a

Imac (Roon Core) > Generic Cat 5

Apple TV 4K > Generic Cat 5 

 

B Side

 

Terra Grand Cat 7 > Oppo BDP 205 (modified) (Roon endpoint) > Coax > AMC DAC 9 (modified) > Aesthetix Mimas Integrated > Vandersteen Quatro CTs

 

Power:  PS Audio Stellar 3 Regenerator (except for cable modem and Imac).

 

Key Questions:

 

Should I replace the stock power supply with:

 

UltraCap LPS 1.2

Or

JS-2

 

If so, what are the areas that are improved for each?

 

If I get a JS-2, as I understand it, I cannot use both rails for EtherRen and A side Asus Modem as that would violate the “moat” correct? Is there a work around?

 

As a completely separate question, should I consider an LPS 1.2 for the Asus Modem?

 

Given the investment in my System, I’m happy to spend the money in the right place if it gives a meaningful improvement (I know what’s meaningful to me might not be meaningful to you) but still interested on others views on how they have viewed the cost/benefit tradeoff of these further tweaks.

 

Also, any thoughts on Ethernet cables also welcome.  Thanks all!

I am powering my ER with an LPS 1.2 and the improvement over the stock switching supply, in my system, is “nice” but not earthshattering.  Then, again, my hearing isn’t at 100% audiophile level, either.

 

I also use an old HDPlex LPS with one rail for each of my Netgear cable modem and ASUS router.  If it makes an audible difference of significance, it’s just lost on me. One thing to point out, though: dunno about yours, but my ASUS router takes a 19v power supply.  I don’t think that an LPS 1.2 can provide that kind of power.

[Mike Rubin]

Exactly how do you position these doorstop thingies?  On top of the ER?  Behind the ER?  Under the cables to and from the ER? 

[Mike Rubin]

43 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

As much as I was hoping the conversation would move on from weights and stands (), I clicked that link and thought it was very cool. Standing our EtherREGEN and UltraCap units on edge does also result in additional airflow and cooling.

 

Then I noticed your link was in the UK and wondered if that adjustable aluminum stand could be had on this side of the pond and in black to match our cases. And guess what?:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078HNGD92

There is even a double version for just $1 more, though the lack of "social distancing" between units might negate some of the cooling benefits.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DHJRN5P

Alex, do you happen to have the ER's height dimension handy for someone too lazy to Google?  I can use a couple of the stands, but I don't want to buy anything that will squeeze the ER case too tightly. 

[Mike Rubin]

2 hours ago, ssh said:

I checked out the stand on Amazon, the middle vertical wall is fixed and the two outer wings adjust in and out.

I bought one to hold an LPS-1,2 and an eR. $25 or so.

SSH, thanks for this information.

 

Alex, I am thinking of using this solution, as well.  You mentioned above that two units placed into the wells might be too close to one another for proper breathing.  I know you haven't tried this, so won't hold you to any answer you might provide, but, if you had to guess, how big a risk do you think it would be to place both an ER and an LPS 1.2 into the same stand?  Would it matter whether the tops or the bottoms faced one another or if one top faced a bottom?

[Mike Rubin]

I ordered this:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085MC6ZGL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I am concerned about the ER and LPS 1.2 creating problems for one another if heat isn't dissipated because of their proximity to one another, but I guess I am willing to try this for the sake of a heater equipment installation and hope it doesn't blow up equipment.

 

Since my ER and LPS have feet, my thinking is to have the bottom sides face one another so there is at least a bit of distance between each and the common wall.  It has occurred to me, though, that that might create a chimney between the two that might heat both units even more than if they were in the open.  In that case, top to top might make more sense, even if it brings the units a bit closer to one another.

 

I know zero about thermodynamics.

[Mike Rubin]

51 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

I ordered this:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085MC6ZGL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I am concerned about the ER and LPS 1.2 creating problems for one another if heat isn't dissipated because of their proximity to one another, but I guess I am willing to try this for the sake of a heater equipment installation and hope it doesn't blow up equipment.

 

Since my ER and LPS have feet, my thinking is to have the bottom sides face one another so there is at least a bit of distance between each and the common wall.  It has occurred to me, though, that that might create a chimney between the two that might heat both units even more than if they were in the open.  In that case, top to top might make more sense, even if it brings the units a bit closer to one another.

 

I know zero about thermodynamics.

I guess I missed my editing window for my last post.  

 

I want to try this for the sake of a "neater" equipment installation, not a "heater" one.  I am hoping not to create a "heater" one in the process. 😄

[Mike Rubin]

On 5/28/2020 at 12:02 PM, Mike Rubin said:

I guess I missed my editing window for my last post.  

 

I want to try this for the sake of a "neater" equipment installation, not a "heater" one.  I am hoping not to create a "heater" one in the process. 😄

Here's the laptop stand repurposed into a CAPS/ER stand.  I have the feet facing one another.  Both units still run hot but not so differently than they ran previously.  (The lumps underneath are some old sorbothane footers just to get the bottom some heat dissipation.  Not sure they are necessary or effective.)

[Mike Rubin]

11 hours ago, Frojo said:

This looks like an attractive space saving option.

If an upright position helps with heat dissipation, is there an orientation which would be preferable?

i.e. sfp cage down or up in the case of the Etheregen.

I have no idea which orientation works best.  I asked about that a few days ago, but got no response, so I am flying blind here. 

 

By having the units' bottoms face one another, I created about an extra inch of distance between the two units. I was hoping that the extra gap would minimize the risk of the hotter unit warming the other, but I have no idea if that is effective.  Choosing that orientation resulted in the SFP being towards the bottom.  As heat rises, though, maybe this is the way to go.  But don't take my word for it.

[Mike Rubin]

I did not. They still are there.  As I mentioned, the feet create some distance and keep the units from snugging up against one another.  Perhaps that helps with cooling compared to having two metal bodies closer to one another, but that's just a hope that I have. I certainly can't prove that it's beneficial.

 

Also, while we are at it, I ran across this pic while shopping for mini computers.  The base ships with these units and I haven't found them offered separately.  @Superdad, maybe this base is a product that might fit into your line of offerings.

[Mike Rubin]

On 6/17/2020 at 4:11 PM, sahmen said:

BTW : I got this to dock both the ER and an LPS 1.2 sideways, and it seems to have the temperature of both units down some... It is actually a little surprising... so what gives?

 

 

 

 

I actually didn't believe this cooling hole gimmick could actually do any cooling.  However, since the temperatures of both units have become less hot, for some reason, I'm wondering whether the magic comes from the sideways positioning of the ER and LPS 1.2, or whether the "cooling hole" indeed has something to do with it. 

Sahmen, where did you find this?  I come up short at the US Amazon site when I search for this pic using Google Images.

[Mike Rubin]

5 hours ago, Mike Rubin said:

Sahmen, where did you find this?  I come up short at the US Amazon site when I search for this pic using Google Images.

I finally found it on Amazon. It wasn’t showing up in searches because it appears to be discontinued.

 

Here’s a similar, albeit somewhat uglier, product:

https://www.amazon.com/Vertical-Space-Saving-Aluminum-Adjustable-Compatible/dp/B07PRRQQYH?pf_rd_r=ST2V5DC2FJT773ZM7JCR&pf_rd_p=be25f964-4afb-442f-819e-9e628b270a7c&pd_rd_r=1f861a76-4a3a-4af1-971f-281c14fdd2eb&pd_rd_w=MuDlw&pd_rd_wg=HDf09&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_d

 

[Mike Rubin]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:55 PM, Mike Rubin said:

I finally found it on Amazon. It wasn’t showing up in searches because it appears to be discontinued.

 

Here’s a similar, albeit somewhat uglier, product:

https://www.amazon.com/Vertical-Space-Saving-Aluminum-Adjustable-Compatible/dp/B07PRRQQYH?pf_rd_r=ST2V5DC2FJT773ZM7JCR&pf_rd_p=be25f964-4afb-442f-819e-9e628b270a7c&pd_rd_r=1f861a76-4a3a-4af1-971f-281c14fdd2eb&pd_rd_w=MuDlw&pd_rd_wg=HDf09&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_d

 

Don’t buy that piece to which I linked at Amazon.  Even fully-extended, its channels are not wide enough to allow insertion of an ER or CAPS. 

[Mike Rubin]

10 hours ago, sahmen said:

 

Here:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B088T4HF82/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

For some reason, its availability is intermittent, and it is hard to reach with a search when it is unavailable, as it is now.  However, it does become available from time to time. In order to get my second one, for example,  I had to place a watch on it, and get notified once it became available again. I use it with both the Etherregen and the LPS 1.2 which is currently powering my Optical Module. 

 

I should mention however, that although it holds both the ER and LPS 1.2 securely enough to prevent them from falling off, or even fitting loosely, the slots do not open wide enough to allow them to be inserted as deeply as I would have ideally liked. However, since they insert far enough to prevent any looseness in the desired sideways/upright position that helps to keep both units a bit cooler than they normally are when standing on their own legs, I accept the result as a satisfactory job. 

Thanks for the information, Sahmen.  I am using this, but liked the idea of getting some air flowing underneath the units. This stand does a fine job of gripping both units, but they still get pretty toasty.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B085MC6ZGL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1