vortecjr Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, rickca said: JS has explained why the ER B-side is limited to 100 Mbps. Why was the OM designed with to be gigabit only with no autonegotiation to 100 Mbps? @vortecjr or @JohnSwenson can you please explain? No particular reason. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, lmitche said: It seems to me this isn't a good time for Alex and John to be mKing any effort to argue design choices with "friends and partners". They are in the middle of a product rollout and major manufacturing push. At a minimum this discussion, if it needs to continue, should be had in a another thead. Don't try to curtail this discussion. Also also, if you’re going to make things and sell things through this forum why don’t you sponsor it and pay Chris for your advertisement. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
Popular Post auricgoldfinger Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 44 minutes ago, pl_svn said: please be more explicit as "crappy endpoints" doesn't help/educate/give any clue to potential customers: which endpoints are you calling "crappy"? make/model, please: purpose of this forum is helping people make good choices, isn't it? or, at the very least: what do you suggest as the bare minimum of "good enough"? again: make/model! Anything not made by @vortecjr can be considered "crappy" in his world. It's funny and ironic how he makes such broad assumptions without any measurements. When in doubt, he also seems to hear a lot less than many others on this forum, which is always a convenient fallback position. pl_svn, rickca, Superdad and 2 others 2 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post lmitche Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 45 minutes ago, vortecjr said: Don't try to curtail this discussion. Also also, if you’re going to make things and sell things through this forum why don’t you sponsor it and pay Chris for your advertisement. I am not trying to stop this discussion. I am trying to change when and at a minimum where it happens. This thread is about EtherREGEN Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions and not a place to compare similar products. gstew and thotdoc 2 Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio Link to comment
Cable Monkey Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 hour ago, vortecjr said: No one is mitigating anyones choice here. Also we’re not talking about the A side of the device. Clearly anything connected to the A side will have no effect on the rest of the network upstream. Not so clear to me. If you mean by upstream, back into the network I’d have to disagree. On the A side you are not isolated from the network so any noise you introduce there will have an impact, though that may well be attenuated by Johns work. But if you have something noisy like a “crappy endpoint” on the B side that won’t have any impact back into the network even though it will affect the associated DAC. That was what I was trying to say. Link to comment
Popular Post Bernstein Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 I want be crystal clear! For me the discussion around the topic is interesting from a measurements point of view but imho started by @vortecjrHIGHLY colored with business / marketing interest in mind. It doesn’t help or add something to the knowledge of the community, rather creating “loose” ends of understanding based on not proven facts and accusations. Knowing, that John Swenson is also working with Sonore, I only can summarize the discussion of @vortecjr as not knowing how to behave, communicate and act in public with respect of other people and especially the people working with him. pl_svn, auricgoldfinger, Account Closed and 3 others 5 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 I agree with @lmitche. @vortecjr, understood that @Superdad said something about use and placement of the EtherREGEN you disagree with. Think such disagreements and/or the parameters of fair comment would be better hashed out in PMs, not because I have a desire to curtail useful discussion, but because I'd like the discussion to remain useful rather than degenerate. Dutch, gstew and pl_svn 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post jcn3 Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 14 hours ago, vortecjr said: I'm responding to a post about my products which under the forum rules I'm allowed to do. With all do respect to Alex and John, we are industry friends and partners and the EtherREGEN is a great product, but this needs more discussion and consideration. So here is the why: 1. The opticalModule, EtherREGEN, and a TP link optical FMC can all provide 100% galvanic isolation and all three will block leakage current into a opticalRendu; 2. Taking things a bit further the opticalModule and the EtherREGEN both have low noise oscillators and low noise power regulation on board. According to John's hypothesis having these upstream deminishes the clock signature. This hasn't been measured and the measurements haven't been compared between products; 3. Understanding 1 and 2, why would it ever be desirable to have the EtherREGEN as the last device in the chain just before whatever is the computer/streamer/renderer endpoint? Do computer/streamer/renderer endpoint have 100% galvanic isolation, low noise oscillators, and low noise power supplies on their network inputs....almost none do but the optical Rendu does:) hi -- thanks for the reply. i don't want to drag down the thread, but wanted to make a quick comment. i think your reply here is exactly what you should have said the first time. your initial reply of "overly zealous" didn't further the conversation in any way -- it was (in my opinion) just an emotional reaction that i don't think represented you or sonore well. people like you and alex have a special relationship with the community here -- you both have great products, you both provide excellent customer service, and you both spend a lot of time contributing to the community. however, the professional nature of the relationship (in my opinion) requires your content to be viewed at a higher standard than a regular user. ok, back to our regularly scheduled programming . . . gstew, Bernstein and soares 3 (1) holo audio red (hqp naa) > chord dave > luxman cl-38uc/mq-88uc > kef reference 1 (2) simaudio moon mind 2 > chord qutest > luxman sq-n150 > monitor audio gold gx100 Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted November 19, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 hour ago, jcn3 said: ok, back to our regularly scheduled programming . . . Yes PLEASE!! I must say that this week I have been dreading waking up (remember I’m California time) to the various OT squabbles that arise overnight here. I already have enough of a challenge taming my e-mail box (why do so many people write such long messages with deep questions?) and managing the business and production. Just enjoy the darn products and don’t stir up trouble! gstew, Puma Cat and Bernstein 1 2 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post octaviars Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 Got my etherREGEN today (FedEx tried to deliver yesterday). First after it got up to room temperature I connected it to my PSU with variable voltage and it draws 0,6A at 12V and 1,0A at 7V that is 7,2 and 7,0W (no other connections). So I think the heat will be much the same no matter what voltage you use. Now I have it connected to my Devialet Phantom and it will stay there until tomorrow. I use fiber from my Ubiquiti Router and that worked right away without any hassle. Tomorrow I will move it in to my main system and it will replace a Netgear GS108 with grounded PSU. jcn3, d_elm and Superdad 1 2 Main system TAD D1000mk2, TAD M2500mk2, TAD CE-1, Ansuz Mainz 8 C2, Ansuz Darkz D-TC, Qobuz Studio -> Roon ROCK on NUC -> Uptone etherREGEN -> dCS Network Bridge -> AES/EBU -> DAC HD Plex 200W PSU (4 rail for ISP fiber, router, etherREGEN and NUC) Second system Qobuz Studio -> Devialet Silver Phantom, Devialet Tree Link to comment
Aidagent Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 I have the same problem as some others. Plugged in ER a few hours ago after receiving it today. It played fine for one song and then I couldn’t reconnect to my Ethernet dac. I tested a lot of different things. And the only way to get connection was to take ER out of the system. Then I tested to connect the other way through the moat as others have reported. Since then it’s working fine for an hour now. And I like it 🤗 here is my setup: Router > ER > Simaudio Moon 280D with ethernet card (Mind1) when I played the first song I had Aqvox switch just before ER. But disconnected it to take one possible problem out of the equation. I am a happy costumer and I will enjoy ER “backwards” confident that there will be a solution 🙂 Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted November 19, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 37 minutes ago, Aidagent said: I have the same problem as some others. Plugged in ER a few hours ago after receiving it today. It played fine for one song and then I couldn’t reconnect to my Ethernet dac. ..... I am a happy costumer and I will enjoy ER “backwards” confident that there will be a solution 🙂 To any users who have experienced loss of connection: We have fully figured out the issue and by the end of this week will be releasing a firmware update to eliminate the problem. It is all an 'A'-side issue having to do with "Energy Efficient Ethernet" (EEE) and our main switch chip's poor support of such (discovered in an errata sheet for it released well after we had designed in the part). John thought he had already set the registers right in the firmware, but his deeper inspection last night revealed that his code was not setting the registers he thought it was. We certainly do not want anyone to become frustrated with use of their EtherREGEN, so if you are experiencing connectivity problems, please just set aside your EtherREGEN for a few days until we release the update. Of course we will explain everything and make the process simple. The only tools required will be a Torx T10 screwdriver (or just bit tip) to remove one end panel of the case, and a standard USB 'A' to microUSB cable. The actual process beyond that will be silly-simple. The vast majority of EtherREGEN users are not experiencing any problems (their connected devices are not trying to use EEE), so those users will not need to update their firmware. Thanks for your patience and understanding. --Alex C. auricgoldfinger, elan120, Bernstein and 8 others 2 7 2 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post Dutch Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 Power saving implementations: the root of too many evils in HQ audio reproduction. 😉 Brilliant find and excellent, confidence inspiring follow-up! Bernstein, FrankMA, Superdad and 1 other 1 3 System details Link to comment
cat6man Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 18 minutes ago, Superdad said: To any users who have experienced loss of connection: We have fully figured out the issue and by the end of this week will be releasing a firmware update to eliminate the problem. It is all an 'A'-side issue having to do with "Energy Efficient Ethernet" (EEE) and our main switch chip's poor support of such (discovered in an errata sheet for it released well after we had designed in the part). John thought he had already set the registers right in the firmware, but his deeper inspection last night revealed that his code was not setting the registers he thought it was. We certainly do not want anyone to become frustrated with use of their EtherREGEN, so if you are experiencing connectivity problems, please just set aside your EtherREGEN for a few days until we release the update. Of course we will explain everything and make the process simple. The only tools required will be a Torx T10 screwdriver (or just bit tip) to remove one end panel of the case, and a standard USB 'A' to microUSB cable. The actual process beyond that will be silly-simple. The vast majority of EtherREGEN users are not experiencing any problems (their connected devices are not trying to use EEE), so those users will not need to update their firmware. Thanks for your patience and understanding. --Alex C. alex, can you tell us what devices you've seen so far that try to use EEE? Bernstein 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Bernstein Posted November 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 19, 2019 Yet again very good move to make it user updatable! You can’t foresee everything! What we can foresee is the excellent support of @JohnSwenson @Superdad Superdad and Avalfa 1 1 Link to comment
Superdad Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, cat6man said: can you tell us what devices you've seen so far that try to use EEE? Linux computers, Windows computers, some NAS, some routers, etc. There are commands to turn it off (some easy some hard), but I absolutely do not want to get into having people attempt to fix the issue that way. Far better for us to take care of it in the switch chip. Networking software support is NOT how I want to spend my days! Bernstein 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Confused Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Presumably EtherRegens from “batch 2” onwards will have appropriately revised firmware to mitigate any EEE issues? Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Bernstein Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Superdad said: Linux computers, Windows computers, some NAS, some routers, etc. There are commands to turn it off (some easy some hard), but I absolutely do not want to get into having people attempt to fix the issue that way. Far better for us to take care of it in the switch chip. Networking software support is NOT how I want to spend my days! will ER force them not to use EEE or will it comply with the EEE rules set by other units? Link to comment
Superdad Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Confused said: Presumably EtherRegens from “batch 2” onwards will have appropriately revised firmware to mitigate any EEE issues? Of course! Confused 1 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
JohnSwenson Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 45 minutes ago, Bernstein said: will ER force them not to use EEE or will it comply with the EEE rules set by other units? The problem occurs every now and them. It seems to be random. This makes it incredibly difficult to test. EEE is agreed upon by auto-negotiation, the "fix" turns off the advertisement of EEE during auto-negotiation, thus preventing it from ever being used on it's ports, preventing the issues from happening. So no, it will never properly perform EEE. John S. Bernstein 1 Link to comment
dminches Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Will turning EEE off on the computer feeding the EtherREGEN accomplish the same thing as your “fix.” Speakers: Vandersteen Model 7s, 4 M&K ST-150Ts, 1 VCC-5; Amplification: 2 Vandersteen M7-HPAs, CI Audio D200 MKII, Ayre V-6xe; Preamp: Doshi Audio Line Stage v3.0; Phono Pre: Doshi Audio Phono Pre; Analog: Wave Kinetics NVS with Durand Telos composite arm; SME 3012R arm, Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement v2; Reel to Reel: Technics RS-1500; Doshi Tape Pre-Amp; Studer A810, Studer A812, Tascam BR-20; Multi-channel: Bryston SP-3; Digital: Custom PC (Sean Jacobs DC4/Euphony/Stylus)> Lampizator Pacific Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said: Anything not made by @vortecjr can be considered "crappy" in his world. It's funny and ironic how he makes such broad assumptions without any measurements. When in doubt, he also seems to hear a lot less than many others on this forum, which is always a convenient fallback position. I think we do a pretty good job. I also take plenty of measurements, as does John, and sometimes I have been known to post them here but not everyone appreciates the message. However off the shelf boards are not going to have good oscillators and clean power regulation circuits feeding them. Also can’t ignore the fact that some DACs are using $12 network cards. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
Superdad Posted November 19, 2019 Author Share Posted November 19, 2019 1 minute ago, dminches said: Will turning EEE off on the computer feeding the EtherREGEN accomplish the same thing as your “fix.” Yes, it will. But as I stated before, please do not ask us to assist in this. And turning it off on the computer does not address what a NAS or router might be doing with EEE. And though the errata sheet for our chip is not entirely clear, it is possible that EEE on one port may affect others. Please understand gentlemen that our time this week is best spent working on the solution and the instructions for loading the new code. The more hours spent on the forum or in e-mail (essentially my whole day so far), the longer it will take for the proper fix to be released. Thanks. UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 8 hours ago, lmitche said: I am not trying to stop this discussion. I am trying to change when and at a minimum where it happens. This thread is about EtherREGEN Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions and not a place to compare similar products. This is the perfect thread to discuss the installation and usage of the unit. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
vortecjr Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Cable Monkey said: Not so clear to me. If you mean by upstream, back into the network I’d have to disagree. On the A side you are not isolated from the network so any noise you introduce there will have an impact, though that may well be attenuated by Johns work. But if you have something noisy like a “crappy endpoint” on the B side that won’t have any impact back into the network even though it will affect the associated DAC. That was what I was trying to say. We are on the same page. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
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