EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[MartinT]

I'm lucky that I have a dedicated 4G router in my music room, so I stream over ethernet cable, not wi-fi.  Sound quality from Qobuz is superb.

[Discopants]

Duplicate post

[Discopants]

Audioquest vodka is 10% silver solid core conductors so your more silver the better argument fails there if your6% silver cable sounds better.

 

Oh and audioquest diamond is 100% silver

[scolley]

I've got a question that I don't think has been answered in this long thread, and I've read every post that used the phrase "WiFi".

 

If the eR sits between the network renderer and the network switch that the renderer is normally connected to (as recommended), does it matter whether said switch is actually a WiFi router, and that it gets the music for the renderer over a wifi connection? Please note, I am not soliciting answers about the wisdom of streaming music over WiFi. That is a debate that should be OT in this thread. Instead, my question is specifically regarding the ability to avail oneself to the benefits that the EtherREGEN can deliver, when WiFi is in the local data delivery chain.

 

By my read of JS's white paper, it might not matter. Because that WiFi connection has no bearing on clock-phase noise, as the eR now sits between the renderer and the router. And the sources of music on the other side of that WiFi connection are clearly no source of current leakage making its way to the renderer. I should note that a prior poster with such a set up claimed sonic improvement after moving the source of the music from the other side of the WiFi connection to the eR. I'm assuming that if true, that might have been due to some factor other than the benefits delivered by the EtherREGEN. (no WiFi for music streaming fans cheering now. 😉 )

 

Though I have to hold out the possibility that for such a setup to get the full benefits of the eR in front of the renderer, that there should also be a second eR between the source of the music and the distant WiFi router, to minimize the effects of clock-phase noise occurring there. That is a total of two eR's, one on each side of the WiFi connection.

 

Please advise.

 

Thanks in advance for the help. 🙂

[Bazza13]

2 hours ago, Discopants said:

Audioquest vodka is 10% silver solid core conductors so your more silver the better argument fails there if your6% silver cable sounds better.

 

Oh and audioquest diamond is 100% silver

I obviously didn't make myself clear so let me do that now.  Not only is some silver important to transmitting digital data but so is triple shielding and the quality of the copper which in the case of the inexpensive Pangea Premiere SE is made by Cardas using George's special extrusion process.

 

My intention of posting my findings was not to begin a war but only to note that there are other inexpensive Ethernet cables that perform very well at less than $50usd that others might like to put into the mix for their consideration. Good luck to everyone.

[MartinT]

1 hour ago, scolley said:

does it matter whether said switch is actually a WiFi router, and that it gets the music for the renderer over a wifi connection?

 

No and Yes.

 

The only switch I have in my system before the ER is my 4G/wi-fi router.  However, and this is important, the music stream goes via ethernet cable and across the ER's moat, gaining the full effect of the ER.  Sending music across the wi-fi bypasses the ER completely and, even if you used an AP on the other side of the moat, wi-fi by its very nature is laggy and jittery so you would be putting the crap back in that the ER removed.

[scolley]

12 minutes ago, MartinT said:

 

No and Yes.

 

...Sending music across the wi-fi bypasses the ER completely and, even if you used an AP on the other side of the moat, wi-fi by its very nature is laggy and jittery so you would be putting the crap back in that the ER removed.

Seems like an excellent answer. Thank you. So if I'm getting this right, it boils down to this...

 

In the scenario I described, you would be be getting some benefit by putting an eR between the WiFi router and the renderer. And you may be getting additional benefit from putting a second eR between the source of the digital music and the other WiFi router. BUT all of those effects would be effectively mitigated by the problems introduced by having WiFi in that local network distribution chain.

 

That makes sense to me. However, it sounds like what you are alluding to - "laggy and jittery" data transmission - is actually an issue of network protocols (and how reliably WiFi works in a particular environment), Without knowing what those protocols are (could look it up, but being expedient here), it would seem to me that for some protocols we would be back to "bits are bits", when they really are due to re-transmissions, et. al. and said ""laggy and jittery" data transmission as regards to the clock-phase noise that an eR fixes.

 

Net net, it might not matter. At all.

 

Thoughts?

[scolley]

Oh... one thing I'm trying to surface here, is if having WiFi in your local digital distribution chain negates the clock-phase noise benefits that an eR provides, John Swenson needs to come forward and state such. And if it does not matter, that too would be of benefit to this community to understand.

[MartinT]

It's not the bit-perfect nature of wi-fi that causes the issues, otherwise wi-fi streaming would be unusable.  The ER strips out noise and jitter from the ethernet data to render a cleaner ethernet feed.  Wi-Fi adds some of that noise and jitter back in.  Unless, of course, you were to add an ER on the other side of the wi-fi feed, but that's too convoluted to consider as a solution.

[scolley]

4 minutes ago, MartinT said:

Unless, of course, you were to add an ER on the other side of the wi-fi feed, but that's too convoluted to consider as a solution.

Thanks for the reply, but if you'll look at my OP you'll see that that is exactly what I was holding out as a possible solution to the problem.

 

As to having two eR's in a distribution chain is too convoluted would seem to be a matter of opinion. Others - including a professional reviewer - have already suggested it as optimal, though in different configurations. Though that is a rabbit hole question I'd rather not go circling down. What I'd rather know, is if any such problems could be circumvented and corrected by having an eR on both sides of that WiFi connection.

 

Thanks for the help. Though at this point I'm inclined to wait to see if we can hear from Mr. Swenson on this point. Thanks.

[GryphonGuy]

4 hours ago, scolley said:

I've got a question that I don't think has been answered in this long thread, and I've read every post that used the phrase "WiFi".

 

If the eR sits between the network renderer and the network switch that the renderer is normally connected to (as recommended), does it matter whether said switch is actually a WiFi router, and that it gets the music for the renderer over a wifi connection? Please note, I am not soliciting answers about the wisdom of streaming music over WiFi. That is a debate that should be OT in this thread. Instead, my question is specifically regarding the ability to avail oneself to the benefits that the EtherREGEN can deliver, when WiFi is in the local data delivery chain.

 

By my read of JS's white paper, it might not matter. Because that WiFi connection has no bearing on clock-phase noise, as the eR now sits between the renderer and the router. And the sources of music on the other side of that WiFi connection are clearly no source of current leakage making its way to the renderer. I should note that a prior poster with such a set up claimed sonic improvement after moving the source of the music from the other side of the WiFi connection to the eR. I'm assuming that if true, that might have been due to some factor other than the benefits delivered by the EtherREGEN. (no WiFi for music streaming fans cheering now. 😉 )

 

Though I have to hold out the possibility that for such a setup to get the full benefits of the eR in front of the renderer, that there should also be a second eR between the source of the music and the distant WiFi router, to minimize the effects of clock-phase noise occurring there. That is a total of two eR's, one on each side of the WiFi connection.

 

Please advise.

 

Thanks in advance for the help. 🙂

 

Having WiFi in the music delivery business of your LAN is detrimental in comparison to cabled delivery, in my personal experience. My preferred position for my audio system is a considerable distance (about 10 metres) from the networking infrastructure. So when I got my EtherREGEN, I also purchased a fibre optic cable and transceivers to run from my main switch up to the audio position where the EtherREGEN accepts that fibre connection on the "A" side. The fibre connection in my case was better than any copper cabling for reasons I am not aware of but really appreciate the difference. The soundstage is very pronounced and rock solid. Timbre is especially realistic. Could not be happier with fibre-optics as implemented on the EtherREGEN so that WiFi was not needed in my music delivery "chain".

 

Regards

GG

[scolley]

1 hour ago, GryphonGuy said:

Having WiFi in the music delivery business of your LAN is detrimental in comparison to cabled delivery, in my personal experience...

Thank you for sharing this informative, singular experience. But I'm going to fall back on my previously stated comments. Specifically this is a topic that I'll await comment from Mr. Swenson.

 

That said, I don't want to appear unappreciative for help from this community. For that I thank you. But the original question I posed is not one easily answered by either conventional wisdom, or one-off experiences. For this reason I thank you for your help, but will hold out for reply from Mr. Swenson. This is a question that a truly informed reply requires deep understanding. IMO. Why else would the whole raison d' etre for a product require a white paper?

 

John?

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, scolley said:

Thank you for sharing this informative, singular experience. But I'm going to fall back on my previously stated comments. Specifically this is a topic that I'll await comment from Mr. Swenson.

 

That said, I don't want to appear unappreciative for help from this community. For that I thank you. But the original question I posed is not one easily answered by either conventional wisdom, or one-off experiences. For this reason I thank you for your help, but will hold out for reply from Mr. Swenson. This is a question that a truly informed reply requires deep understanding. IMO. Why else would the whole raison d' etre for a product require a white paper?

 

John?

I'm not quite sure exactly what you want me to comment on. If you are saying run the audio data into an ER A side port, then the B side port into a wifi AP, then a wifi client into the endpoint, then the ER is not going to be very effective. It might make a small improvement, but not much. If you are talking about audio data to wifi AP, then wifi client to an A side port of an ER, then B port to endpoint, then the ER will make a big improvement over the system without it. Having the wifi client upstrem of the ER may be a little worse than direct wire or optical connection, as usual that is a rather system dependent issue.

 

John S.

[scolley]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

If you are talking about audio data to wifi AP, then wifi client to an A side port of an ER, then B port to endpoint, then the ER will make a big improvement over the system without it. Having the wifi client upstrem of the ER may be a little worse than direct wire or optical connection, as usual that is a rather system dependent issue.

Thank you John, That is what I was asking. So from your comment I believe there are two important take-aways for the community.

 

First, just because you have WiFi in your data delivery chain, it does not mean you will not still see significant benefit from an eR placed in front of the endpoint (B side facing endpoint).

 

Second, on the other side of the WiFi gap, where the audio data originates, there is no requirement to put an additional eR in front of the WiFi AP.

 

Thank you sir. Please correct me if I'm recapping incorrectly.

[scolley]

Now for a completely different usage question...

 

I've hit the wall in terms of available AC sockets for the gear in my audio rack. Needing one more for the eR is problematic.

 

But in that rack is a good ole' JS-2, which powers both my DAC (with a built-in network endpoint) and the switch the DAC is connected to. If I replace that switch with an EtherREGEN, can I also use the JS-2 to power the eR? I know the JS-2 can handle the power requirement, but the manual states the following.

 

"Avoid powering both the EtherREGEN and your ‘B’-side endpoint from the same AC>DC supply—unless you are certain the PS outputs used do not share a common 0-volt/-VE (‘ground’/shell). If they do you will be defeating the EtherREGEN’s sophisticated isolation."

 

Do the two outputs of the JS-2 share a common 0-volt/-VE?

 

Thanks. 🙂

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, scolley said:

Do the two outputs of the JS-2 share a common 0-volt/-VE?

 

Yes, they do.

The JS-2’s DC outputs are “floated” (though the chassis and shield of the transformer are grounded to AC mains for safety). 

Yet the two -VE/0-volt “grounds” of the JS-2’s separately regulated outputs are common to each other (because only one transformer secondary, one set of Schottky diodes, one large filter choke).

[scolley]

Thanks for the reply. I guess that means I've got to figure out where I'm going to find a new AC socket. 🙁

[MarkusBarkus]

scolley, if you don't need a "conditioned" outlet from a PS, but an ordinary AC outlet, you could potentially convert a duplex outlet in the wall to a double. 
 

Not sure if you're comfortable with that, but it is manageable to add a duplex outlet in your wall. If it's not your thing, an electrician could do it easily. 
 

Result would be two duplex outlets, side by side, in a double box. You would jumper outlet to outlet, same feed, so should be no issue with ground loops.
 

This based on not many details about your needs, what's on the circuit already, etc.

[scolley]

MarkusBarkus thanks for the help. But we are renting at the moment, so no addition of outlets. While the power coming into most my audio components is quite clean, as most of it hangs off a PS Audio Stellar Power Plant 3 (wonderful product BTW), which has its own single socket of a duplex box. But the other socket is a mess, with the JS-2 and more other stuff than I'd  want to go into, all coming out of an "audio class" power strip - which is full. I'll just find something I'm willing to lose off that strip, and let the EtherREGEN live there. It's just a decision I was hope to not have to make.

 

Thanks. 🙂

[R1200CL]

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, scolley said:

Thanks for the reply. I guess that means I've got to figure out where I'm going to find a new AC socket. 🙁

 

Seems like you are mixing up AC mains connections with DC zero-volt "ground" domains. Really not related with regards the discussion of DC power supplies and your use of your JS-2.

[Superdad]

Say everyone:

I am only just back from vacation the last couple of days (plowing through 10+ hours of e-mails and getting shipments out while my assistant is out this week).

I can see that both this EtherREGEN Installation, Usage, Difficulty thread as well as the Listening Impressions have been wandering rather off-topic.  These threads are meant to be a resource for all, that's why I ask that we keep it focused--especially this one as new EtherREGEN users are advised to come here.

When I have time in the next few days I'll probably move some posts to more appropriate threads.

Thanks very much,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. This me on the lake by our cabin on the east side of the Sierras. It was relaxing--and I managed to convince my wife to finally cut my hair the following day. 

 

[scolley]

@Superdad it sounds like you are really trying to help. And for that, thank you. But I've got no idea what you are talking about. Can you please dumb down that reply, as if you were talking to your pre-adolescent child? Maybe then I'll know what you are trying to say.

 

As a clue as how to start, dropping the word "domain" from discussions of how to plug "this plug" into "that socket" would a great start. Sorry, but this is WAY over my understanding. Just tell me if I can use my JS-2 to power both my network endpoint and an EtherREGEN. It's a simple question. The details matter not to me. Though they might be helpful to this community.

 

Thanks.

 

PS - Will not be able to reply until tomorrow. But thanks for your help.

[PYP]

26 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

 

 

Feel free to delete this one.  Just wanted to say this looks like a world-class way to isolate.  Hope it was restful.  Haircut?  I'm surprised you didn't go all out wild mountain man for a week.  😮 

[Superdad]

17 hours ago, scolley said:

@Superdad Just tell me if I can use my JS-2 to power both my network endpoint and an EtherREGEN.

 

Hi: My apologies. I did not mean to be confusing. I was just in a hurry when I posted. 

 

It seemed to me that you questions about using the JS-2 (which I ought to help you with privately or in a JS-2 thread) were conflating AC power sockets with the DC outputs from JS-2--likely due to my wording in the User Guide.

 

The shortest answer I can give (while still giving enough info to be useful) is:

a) If your network endpoint is on the 'B' port of the EtherREGEN then using a single JS-2 to power both the EtherREGEN and that endpoint will somewhat defeat the isolation moat of the the EtherREGEN;

b) If your usage of the EtherREGEN has only one (network feed) connection on the 'A' side, then there is a trick you can use which will allow use of the JS-2 for both the EtherREGEN and endpoint while preserving the full isolation.  "Turn around" the EtherREGEN, running your network feed into the 'B' port, and your endpoint from one of the 'A' ports.  This works great for two reasons:

1) We went to extra trouble and expense to make the EtherREGEN symmetrical about its moat (i.e. differential clocking and reclocking and all super voltage regulation is the same both sides) just so that B>A performance would be equal to A>B. Main reason we did it was for optical endpoint users (opticalRendu), but there are other uses for B>A connection, such as multiple endpoints or issues of power supply.

2) DC power to the EtherREGEN is to its 'A' side (yes, power makes its way to the 'B' side, but via expensive isolating converters across the moat), so having the endpoint attached to an 'A' port makes it not matter that both the EtherREGEN and the endpoint are sharing a power supply (JS-2) whose two DC outputs share a common -VE/zero-volt "ground."

 

Please do contact me directly if you need further clarification or assistance in this matter. 

Thanks, --Alex C.