EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[Doh]

Hi folks,

 

New to all the hubbub and wondering - has anyone tried exchanging the Crystek clock within the ER rather than adding an external clocking unit?

 

I am on the April wait list, bought from Martin at Vortexbox/audio store UK, hopefully it should arrive asap but Martin has just told me there is some issue and he will receive the batch in 2 more weeks! The pain of double barrel waiting whilst on quarantine is excruciating, now all i have to look forward to is 10am when alcohol is acceptable 😙

 

Doh

 

 

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, Doh said:

New to all the hubbub and wondering - has anyone tried exchanging the Crystek clock within the ER rather than adding an external clocking unit?

 

Hi there (Matt from UK perhaps?):

Well that would be pretty much impossible/pointless because:

a) Show me another available 25.0MHz production XO--of the same size with the same pinouts--that has 10Hz offset phase noise even close to that of the Cystek CCHD-575 we use. Current production 575s range in the -108 to -112 dBc/Hz. One either needs to move to a big, power hungry OXCO in the $350+ range to better that, or find someone with an expensive phase/jitter measurement box to sort through 100 pieces of some NDK ND2520 parts.

 

b) I guess "a)" about covers it. 

 

9 hours ago, Doh said:

I am on the April wait list, bought from Martin at Vortexbox/audio store UK, hopefully it should arrive asap but Martin has just told me there is some issue and he will receive the batch in 2 more weeks! The pain of double barrel waiting whilst on quarantine is excruciating, now all i have to look forward to is 10am when alcohol is acceptable .

 

Sorry about the slight delay. Earlier this month we goofed.

Due to our practicing a lot of “social distancing” in the shop—my assistants and I are avoiding being in the same space at the same time. I had asked to set aside all of Martin's EtherREGEN units—from the ones we had built and tested. Turns out they built and labeled all the blue boxes, and set them on the shelf with a tag saying “Audiostore UK.”  Somehow I assumed that those were all complete with units in them, but they were EMPTY. Only after we packed and shipped all end-user orders did I docker the error.  We are now through programming/testing of another 125 units--getting their heat sinks attached beginning Thursday. Of course now the Audiostore order is going out first--as soon as possible--before all the user orders which are promised for May 5th shipment (though even those are likely to go by about the 1st).

[Doh]

Thank you for the reply @superdad - roger that, it is pointless to add a better clock 😄 although it does make me wonder why the option for an external clock is offered 🤷‍♂️ just an observation, is all, certainly cheaper to create a small board and upgrade the internal one.

 

Thats a shame on the boxes, haha Murphys law

 

Doh in Netherlands (not Matt)

[Superdad]

45 minutes ago, Doh said:

...although it does make me wonder why the option for an external clock is offered 🤷‍♂️

 

As explained a few times in the past: Since we are using a (jitter-attenuating) differential output clock synthesizer to produce the 4 required clock lines, and since that part has two inputs for reference, we had an extra input and it was cheap and easy to add a BNC and programming for a 10MHz external.

Initially done as a feature to match our much pricier competitor (who charges an extra $250 to add a BNC jack with a long wire to their clock synth), but since used and enjoyed by people who already have fine external reference clocks such as Mutec REF10, Cybershaft, and others.

 

45 minutes ago, Doh said:

just an observation, is all, certainly cheaper to create a small board and upgrade the internal one.

 

I think we are still not following each other here:

 

a) A board with a large, power hungry OXCO would never fit in our unit or be able to be powered there on the 'B' side.

In this pic you see the Crystal CCHD-575 below the switch (and of course no clock goes through that switch; its position is just checked at power-up so the right programming code is sent to set up the synth for internal 25MHz or external 10MHz), and 3mm below that is the clock synthesizer, which in turn is less than 2mm from a critical clock buffer.

 

b) If we were going to spend hundreds on an OXCO to better the 575 (and again, that is what it takes, even at volume; no $65 OCXO is going to come close to the part we use), it would go on the main board, be fed very clean power, and have isolation circuitry around it. A "daughter-board" would be a pointless compromise.

 

c) The EtherREGEN is about much more than just clocking. Even those who are using the $3,500 Mutec REFE10 with it have said that the improvement is slight compared to what the EtherREGEN itself brings to the table.

 

Hope you enjoy yours. Many thanks,

--Alex C.

[Doh]

Thanks for the detailed answer Alex, lets stick to the Crystek 👍

[bailyhill]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

As explained a few times in the past: Since we are using a (jitter-attenuating) differential output clock synthesizer to produce the 4 required clock lines, and since that part has two inputs for reference, we had an extra input and it was cheap and easy to add a BNC and programming for a 10MHz external.

Initially done as a feature to match our much pricier competitor (who charges an extra $250 to add a BNC jack with a long wire to their clock synth), but since used and enjoyed by people who already have fine external reference clocks such as Mutec REF10, Cybershaft, and others.

 

 

I think we are still not following each other here:

 

a) A board with a large, power hungry OXCO would never fit in our unit or be able to be powered there on the 'B' side.

In this pic you see the Crystal CCHD-575 below the switch (and of course no clock goes through that switch; its position is just checked at power-up so the right programming code is sent to set up the synth for internal 25MHz or external 10MHz), and 3mm below that is the clock synthesizer, which in turn is less than 2mm from a critical clock buffer.

 

b) If we were going to spend hundreds on an OXCO to better the 575 (and again, that is what it takes, even at volume; no $65 OCXO is going to come close to the part we use), it would go on the main board, be fed very clean power, and have isolation circuitry around it. A "daughter-board" would be a pointless compromise.

 

c) The EtherREGEN is about much more than just clocking. Even those who are using the $3,500 Mutec REFE10 with it have said that the improvement is slight compared to what the EtherREGEN itself brings to the table.

 

Hope you enjoy yours. Many thanks,

--Alex C.

 

 

Thanks Alex for your info on clocks.  I realize that spending 3.5K for a Mutec at first blush sounds ridiculous to feed a $640 EtherRegen.  However, when one considers that some folks are fortunate enough to have $50K to $100k into their systems, another $3.5K is of the order of a small upgrade.  If someone has $3K in their system, then a Mutec is probably not appropriate, unless they are "building" on the way to something bigger.  

[k-man]

58 minutes ago, bailyhill said:

I realize that spending 3.5K for a Mutec at first blush sounds ridiculous to feed a $640 EtherRegen.

It is ridiculous to spend 3.5k to feed the EtherRegen. The option is there to appeal to those who are likely to already own one based on connecting it those existing devices (mainly the SOtM gear). Think of the amazing things one can use the 3.5k for..new music server, DAC upgrade.

[Ponkbutler]

3 minutes ago, k-man said:

It is ridiculous to spend 3.5k to feed the the EtherRegen. The option is there to appeal to those who are likely to already own one based on connecting it those existing devices (mainly the SOtM gear). Think of the amazing things one can use the 3.5k for..new music server, DAC upgrade.

 

People are quite free to choose spend their money as they prefer without being ridiculed for it....aren't they? Many would consider what we spent on the EtherRegen to be ridiculous...

[k-man]

2 minutes ago, Ponkbutler said:

People are quite free to choose spend their money as they prefer without being ridiculed for it....aren't they?

Yes, no one needs saving, and I agreed with the previous post that people with 100k systems can be inclined to do so. My point is mainly that the 3.5k clock won’t make the EtherREGEN an attractive 3.65k device. It is an impressive device in itself with all the component choices inside to improve many systems.

[bailyhill]

4 minutes ago, k-man said:

It is ridiculous to spend 3.5k to feed the the EtherRegen. The option is there to appeal to those who are likely to already own one based on connecting it those existing devices (mainly the SOtM gear). Think of the amazing things one can use the 3.5k for..new music server, DAC upgrade.

 

Hello K-man

I agree with you somewhat.  Last month I went for an LG UST Projector and VividStorm Screen for my music room instead of the Mutec.  Same cost involved and my wife and I are enjoying the video setup--I am not a videophile so did not go BIG for that, but a nice one.  I like the fact that the screen is a floor rising unit, that can be lowered such that it does not affect the SQ between the speakers.  That being said, I find that I prefer the sound with the screen up--I guess its like room treatment.  Behind the screen is a pleated light block shade that apparently was having some comb filter issues with the imaging--not a problem, just better without--anecdotal evidence only.  

 

I have already upgraded the music server (Nucleus+/Roon) and DAC (Meridian Ultra Dac) and the SW (Vandersteen 3's) so there are not too many options left.  After Covid, I might consider a Mutec 6 months down the road.  Perhaps I should consider donating that money to a more worthy cause--those that are hurting out there.   We are sheltering at home, but still manage to do my part to keep the economy going and have used Amazon Prime for many things in the past few weeks.  I am 75 years old/young, so in the sunset portion of life, so this is

my last system.

 

Be Safe--enjoy your music.

[k-man]

24 minutes ago, bailyhill said:

I am 75 years old/young, so in the sunset portion of life, so this is

my last system.

When you have done so much in your life, I can only say you have most definitely earnt that right to be quite liberal in how you can get or spend your system for your hobby, especially as it’s your last. I am a little more than half your age with 2 little kids to feed, and being a NHS essential worker (thank goodness not the brave frontliners), that puts my spending in priorities other than hifi. 

[bailyhill]

14 minutes ago, k-man said:

When you have done so much in your life, I can only say you have most definitely earnt that right to be quite liberal in how you can get or spend your system for your hobby, especially as it’s your last. I am a little more than half your age with 2 little kids to feed, and being a NHS essential worker (thank goodness not the brave frontliners), that puts my spending in priorities other than hifi. 

 

K-Man--been there--done that:  I have two girls, nearly 40 years old.  Source of great pride.  Eldest is a Navy Test Pilot--now a Captain and been in 20+ years--2 deployments in wars--MIT Aero Astro Grad.  Youngest is special needs educator/assistant director/PhD--did not let her sister out do her.  Being an engineer/manager, not sure where this sense of service came from--probably my wife, a retired nurse.

 

Thanks for NHS workers who are working behind the scenes and to all those brave frontliners.  Not sure I could do that.

[Horse Tea]

Hi Alex,

 

I received here in Germany the ER 2.5 days ! after placing my order in the US. I claim this to be record!

 

Unfortunately, I have a strange connection problem. I placed the ER after my Cisco 2960 to which I had, so far, connected a Samsung TV, to receive the Digital Concert Hall of the Berlin Philharmonic, and a Linn ADS2 to listen to my library from a Synology NAS and Quobuz. When I connect the ER to the Cisco (side A) either the TV or the Linn connected to side B work perfectly well. The same is true, when I connect the Cisco and the TV to side A and the Linn to side B. Obviously the ideal scenario is to connect the Cisco to side B and TV and Linn to side A. I, however, failed at two attempts so far. Initially, I hooked all three devices to the correct ethernet ports on the ER before switching on the power, i.e. Cisco to side B and TV and Linn to side A. Nothing worked which means that neither the TV nor the Linn got connected.

 

Today I took a stepwise approach. I powered the set-up with the ER disconnected to the Cisco. Then I connected just the cable between Cisco and ER side B. After a couple of minutes I just connected the Linn to side A which worked perfectly. After again a couple of minutes I connected the TV additionally to side A and checked for the access to the Digital Concert Hall. It worked. I left everything like it was and went into the kitchen to do some work. I returned after about 30 min. Nothing was in between actively changed by myself. When I tried to start a concert on TV the picture got frozen. At the same time the Linn also lost connection to the network. The tablet did not find the library any more. All three LEDs at the RJ45 ethernet ports were flashing green indicating network activity. The TV showed the message 'automatic IP mapping not possible'. Disconnecting/reconnecting of the ER nor switching power off and on again of either Cisco, ER, TV and Linn helped.

 

When I wrote this post I left the ER disconnected except for power. I.e, after about 30 min break, I tried gain and both, TV and Linn on side A (side B to Cisco) worked simultaneously.

 

Do you have an idea for a stable connection in my case? Thank you for your time and for paying attention.

Kind regards 

Horst

 

[JohnSwenson]

10 hours ago, Horse Tea said:

Hi Alex,

 

I received here in Germany the ER 2.5 days ! after placing my order in the US. I claim this to be record!

 

Unfortunately, I have a strange connection problem. I placed the ER after my Cisco 2960 to which I had, so far, connected a Samsung TV, to receive the Digital Concert Hall of the Berlin Philharmonic, and a Linn ADS2 to listen to my library from a Synology NAS and Quobuz. When I connect the ER to the Cisco (side A) either the TV or the Linn connected to side B work perfectly well. The same is true, when I connect the Cisco and the TV to side A and the Linn to side B. Obviously the ideal scenario is to connect the Cisco to side B and TV and Linn to side A. I, however, failed at two attempts so far. Initially, I hooked all three devices to the correct ethernet ports on the ER before switching on the power, i.e. Cisco to side B and TV and Linn to side A. Nothing worked which means that neither the TV nor the Linn got connected.

 

Today I took a stepwise approach. I powered the set-up with the ER disconnected to the Cisco. Then I connected just the cable between Cisco and ER side B. After a couple of minutes I just connected the Linn to side A which worked perfectly. After again a couple of minutes I connected the TV additionally to side A and checked for the access to the Digital Concert Hall. It worked. I left everything like it was and went into the kitchen to do some work. I returned after about 30 min. Nothing was in between actively changed by myself. When I tried to start a concert on TV the picture got frozen. At the same time the Linn also lost connection to the network. The tablet did not find the library any more. All three LEDs at the RJ45 ethernet ports were flashing green indicating network activity. The TV showed the message 'automatic IP mapping not possible'. Disconnecting/reconnecting of the ER nor switching power off and on again of either Cisco, ER, TV and Linn helped.

 

When I wrote this post I left the ER disconnected except for power. I.e, after about 30 min break, I tried gain and both, TV and Linn on side A (side B to Cisco) worked simultaneously.

 

Do you have an idea for a stable connection in my case? Thank you for your time and for paying attention.

Kind regards 

Horst

 

Which 2960 do you have? There are both mostly 100Mbit and gigabit versions out there. The mostly 100Mbit has 1 gigabit port and the rest are 100Mbit. There may be an issue with this. Have you tried plugging the B side to different ports on the 2960 to see if that makes any difference?

 

The 2960 takes a VERY long time to boot up, if the devices are already connected to the A side of ER (which is powered up) and THEN you turn on the 2960 the slow boot may cause devices to time out before they connect. Just a possibility. I would make sure the 2960 has been powered up for a long time (several minutes at least) before turning on anything else. My preferred sequence would be 2960 then ER then other devices. This should make sure the network is up and running before other devices try and connect.

 

John S.

[Horse Tea]

Hi John,

 

my Cisco is a C2960-8TC-L. That the switch is booting VERY slowly, is correct. In my second attempt to run the system as desired I was exactly doing what you propose namely wait for minutes after switching each component on. Also, failure occurred after all was working correctly for some time. However, both switches are powered by the same power line as the rest of the audio equipment. It is very convenient to turn the whole system on at once. Maybe I should separate the switches which might be a little inconvenient. Do you recommend to leave the ER powered all the time? I am hesitant to do this because the ER gets rather hot.

 

Horst

 

 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Horse Tea said:

Hi John,

 

my Cisco is a C2960-8TC-L. That the switch is booting VERY slowly, is correct. In my second attempt to run the system as desired I was exactly doing what you propose namely wait for minutes after switching each component on. Also, failure occurred after all was working correctly for some time. However, both switches are powered by the same power line as the rest of the audio equipment. It is very convenient to turn the whole system on at once. Maybe I should separate the switches which might be a little inconvenient. Do you recommend to leave the ER powered all the time? I am hesitant to do this because the ER gets rather hot.

 

Horst

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

I personally like the sound without Cisco switch better than the sound with it. So one thought is to leave the Cisco out entirely. 

 

Or if you need the extra connections, go through ER for the devices where sound quality is most critical and leave Cisco for the rest.

[Horse Tea]

Hi Jud,

 

I was so far under the impression from this forum that most users preferred the ER after the Cisco. Therefore, your experience to obtain even better sound without a second switch was very interesting to me. I followed your thought and am now very pleased and content with SQ as well as stability of the set-up. Both sources are running in parallel since about 1.5h without any drop-out. Thank you very much for your support.

Horst

 

[further]

Superdad,

 

I have had my eR since the end of February and have been happily and sucessfully utilizing in A>B with RJ45 cables inputting to a microRendu and then USB to DAC.  I will soon be adding a Lumin X1 to the mix and would like to utilize optical in to the Lumin X1 and hopefully be able to correctly also run copper to the microRendu by reversing eR B>A.  Before ordering complimentary items for the  Lumin X1, I thought it best to run this by here to make sure I am on the right track.

1. Running B>A, is it advisable to utilize both the Optical and RJ45 "A" connections if my LPS  for the microRendu and for eR is separate and both running to an audio device, not a computer or NAS?  LPS-1.2 is powering microRendu and 12Vdc from SOtM SPS-1000 is powering etherREGEN without other units running from the SPS-1000.  
2. If this is acceptable, should I also run a ground wire from the eR?
3. Lumin says to use Single Mode Transceivers for the X1 and on a Lumin forum suggested these, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U8PN0NQ/?coliid=I3RP0WGFHIRELY&colid=2XPPCA6G9B2GZ&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it  Do you see any compatibility issue with the eR and using these?
4. I saw this cable also suggested on the Lumin forum,https://www.ebay.com/itm/3m-SC-SC-duplex-9-125um-Corning-ClearCurve-single-mode-bend-insensitive-fiber/232757309790?hash=item36316ab15e:g:ixgAAOSwcJ1a7Oct:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true  .  Does all of this look to be a compatible solution?

I appreciate guidance on this.  Thanks.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, further said:

Superdad,

 

I have had my eR since the end of February and have been happily and sucessfully utilizing in A>B with RJ45 cables inputting to a microRendu and then USB to DAC.  I will soon be adding a Lumin X1 to the mix and would like to utilize optical in to the Lumin X1 and hopefully be able to correctly also run copper to the microRendu by reversing eR B>A.  Before ordering complimentary items for the  Lumin X1, I thought it best to run this by here to make sure I am on the right track.

1. Running B>A, is it advisable to utilize both the Optical and RJ45 "A" connections if my LPS  for the microRendu and for eR is separate and both running to an audio device, not a computer or NAS?  LPS-1.2 is powering microRendu and 12Vdc from SOtM SPS-1000 is powering etherREGEN without other units running from the SPS-1000.  
2. If this is acceptable, should I also run a ground wire from the eR?
3. Lumin says to use Single Mode Transceivers for the X1 and on a Lumin forum suggested these, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U8PN0NQ/?coliid=I3RP0WGFHIRELY&colid=2XPPCA6G9B2GZ&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it  Do you see any compatibility issue with the eR and using these?
4. I saw this cable also suggested on the Lumin forum,https://www.ebay.com/itm/3m-SC-SC-duplex-9-125um-Corning-ClearCurve-single-mode-bend-insensitive-fiber/232757309790?hash=item36316ab15e:g:ixgAAOSwcJ1a7Oct:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true  .  Does all of this look to be a compatible solution?

I appreciate guidance on this.  Thanks.

 

I used the following with the Lumin X1

 

SFP - https://www.amazon.com/U-Fiber-Single-Mode-SFP-1G/dp/B01N4KWOI1/

 

Single Mode fiber cable - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MYOJVKD/

[further]

Chris, thank you for pointing me to what worked so successfully for you.

[jamesg11]

Further query re the earth ground - what is the effect of having the whole setup downstream of an iso transformer (ethernet connection is Ghent jssg)? I use a Clipsal ground plug, given my powering the ER with an lps1.2.

[Superdad]

On 4/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, further said:

I have had my eR since the end of February and have been happily and sucessfully utilizing in A>B with RJ45 cables inputting to a microRendu and then USB to DAC.  I will soon be adding a Lumin X1 to the mix and would like to utilize optical in to the Lumin X1 and hopefully be able to correctly also run copper to the microRendu by reversing eR B>A.  Before ordering complimentary items for the  Lumin X1, I thought it best to run this by here to make sure I am on the right track.

Sorry to a bit slow in reply. With everyone at home these days my e-mail in-box refills constantly! 

 

On 4/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, further said:

1. Running B>A, is it advisable to utilize both the Optical and RJ45 "A" connections if my LPS  for the microRendu and for eR is separate and both running to an audio device, not a computer or NAS?  LPS-1.2 is powering microRendu and 12Vdc from SOtM SPS-1000 is powering etherREGEN without other units running from the SPS-1000.

That seems fine.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, further said:

If this is acceptable, should I also run a ground wire from the eR?

Probably. And I notice that the SPS-1000 has an earth-grounding screw, so that makes doing so rather easy.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, further said:

1. Lumin says to use Single Mode Transceivers for the X1 and on a Lumin forum suggested these, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U8PN0NQ/?coliid=I3RP0WGFHIRELY&colid=2XPPCA6G9B2GZ&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it  Do you see any compatibility issue with the eR and using these?

Those are fine. As long as you use them at both ends and as long as you use Single-mode fiber optic cable.

 

On 4/19/2020 at 8:18 PM, further said:

I saw this cable also suggested on the Lumin forum,https://www.ebay.com/itm/3m-SC-SC-duplex-9-125um-Corning-ClearCurve-single-mode-bend-insensitive-fiber/232757309790?hash=item36316ab15e:g:ixgAAOSwcJ1a7Oct:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true .

No, that cable you linked to has full-size SC connectors--which won't fit at all!

You need LC connectors for any SFP size fiber transceivers.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[Superdad]

18 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

Further query re the earth ground - what is the effect of having the whole setup downstream of an iso transformer (ethernet connection is Ghent jssg)? I use a Clipsal ground plug, given my powering the ER with an lps1.2.

 

Hi James:

I don't know that there is any effect for EtherREGEN related to your use of a mains isolation transformer, though if you are looking for a good earth ground for your EtherREGEN you might need to go right to the wall. Likely depends upon how your isolation trans is wired.

[further]

Alex,

 

Thank you very much for weighing in on my questions.  You are correct the SPS-1000 has a grounding screw, and per your suggestion, I do intend then to ground the eR to it.  I heeded Chris's earlier suggestions on what worked successfully for optical transceivers and cables during his review use of the Lumin X1 and ordered them.  I appreciate you both responding to my questions.

 

Stay well.

[jamesg11]

22 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi James:

I don't know that there is any effect for EtherREGEN related to your use of a mains isolation transformer, though if you are looking for a good earth ground for your EtherREGEN you might need to go right to the wall. Likely depends upon how your isolation trans is wired.

Thanks Alex, I’ll try going into the wall (assuming this won’t effect the iso of the iso tran!).

No idea how the Elgar is wired ... other than it was worked on by a well-respected local audio engineer.