EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Roasty said:

 

 

 

is this the startech cable you were referring to?

 

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-SFP-H10GB-CU2M-Compatible-10-Gigabit-Ethernet-Passive/dp/B00B3T6BFU/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords=Startech+sfp&qid=1590537077&sr=8-19

 

 

 

anyhow, if i do get the switch, i will probably give fiber a try just to see if it does make a difference or not. the cost of the startech cable is not prohibitive.

I don't know anything for sure about that Startech SFP/cable combo but that looks like copper, not optical, to me.  I have no idea whether that would provide the same isolation benefits as does optical, but, if that is a copper connection, I think I would just get optical SFP's and cable and not wonder about isolation capability.

 

Prices aren't much higher for optical.

 

If the Startech combo is optical, please just disregard this post.

[Mike Rubin]

45 minutes ago, octaviars said:

I have posted this picture before but it works really well with dual heat sinks and I have it mounted to the wall with two brackets in my networkcabinet. Temperature went from 48C to 38C so I am happy with this modification and the heat sinks are mounted with double-sided heat-conducting tape so it is reversable.

 

This looks like it would work well as a heat dissipater, but how do you orient it with cables attached?  Does the lower heat sink surface just sit on the shelf?

[Mike Rubin]

10 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

As I wrote I made brackets to mount it to the wall so air can move around it.

 

So you said, indeed. Sloppy reading on my part!  

 

Looks like a terrific installation.

[Mike Rubin]

3 hours ago, TwinPeak said:

Today it was my turn to experience a mind-blowing and very unexpected lift in soundstage and overall sound quality. While I was behind my system and messing around with cables, I also replaced my single-mode SFP-modules and fiber cable with duplex-mode SFP's and fiber connecting a Ubiquiti router to EtherREGEN’s SFP-cage. I didn't turned power off on any device - just connected the new duplex-mode fiber.
 
Right away I was met by a larger and better defined soundstage. I could hear subtle details that previously had escaped my attention. The musical presentation and separation, especially in lower midrange and bass, also seem more clear and distinct.

 

Please remember, I don't use streaming so the fiber connection is not involved in the transport of music files. To me, this improvement doesn't seem logical. But maybe the duplex-mode SFP's and fiber give EtherREGEN better working conditions? I know that the single-mode fiber is mainly used for long distance/traveling signals, and the SFP mechanism is more complicated - but this much?

 

If any of you can explain this, please do.

Time for more listening...
Tom

 

Everyone's mileage clearly varies here.  My setup isn't crazy different than yours, except that I go out from the Etherregen A side by optical to a Sonore Signature Rendu SE Optical.  Originally, I used Duplex SFP's and cabling, but several people here responded to a comment I made by suggesting a switch to single-mode, so I took that plunge. 

 

It sounded fine, to my ears, anyway, but I thought it sounded fine to begin with. No complaints, but no epiphany, either.  Of all the tweaks I have tried with this system since going optical, the only other one that had so little effect was changing the footers under my Rendu and DAC. 

 

Your system appears much, much more resolving than mine.  That could explain the difference in our experiences. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi Mike, there there seems to be a little confusion here on the single, multiple dual thing. I'll attempt clarify a bit if I may.

 

There are two completely different aspects of fiber here: how many fibers there are and the "mode" of a fiber.

 

The number of fibers should hopefully be obvious, you have either one or two fibers. The more common is a two fiber, where one of the fibers carries data in one direction and the other carries data in the other. The one fiber system carries data in both directions over a single fiber. The common way to do this is to use different wavelengths for the different directions.

 

"Mode" is a bit harder to understand. There is multi-mode and single-mode.  The actual difference is how big the core of the fiber is. In a multi-mode fiber the core is much larger than the wavelength of the light, in single-mode fiber the core is on the order of the wavelength of the light (which is pretty small!). Think of it this way. You have a long hallway, say 10 ft wide, and you send a Roomba down this hallway. If it enters the hallway perfectly parallel to the hallway it just goes straight down. But if it enters at an angle it goes until it hits a wall, then turns and starts going towards the opposite wall, until it hits side, turns back towards the first, and continues down the hallway bouncing off the walls. The steeper the angle at which it enters the hallway the more times it bounces of the walls. The amount of time it takes to traverse the hallway depends radically on the initial entrance angle. This is sort of how "multi-mode" works.

 

"single-mode" is sort of like a hallway that is just wide enough for the Roomba fit in, it can't go bouncing off the walls in this case, the only thing it can do is go straight down the hallway. This radically cuts down on the variability of the time it takes to get down the hallway.

 

There are pros and cons, the very thin fiber needed for single-mode is much harder to make, hence more expensive.  The fiber "entrance" is much smaller for the single-mode, hence much harder to get the light in there in the first place. It's like needing some sort of funnel arrangement to get the Roomba into the narrow hallway.

 

So you can have two fiber systems where the fibers are either multi-mode, or single mode. You can have single fiber systems where the fibers are either multi-mode or single-mode.

 

I have a feeling that you were thinking that when someone said they liked single-mode better you thought they meant a single fiber system, so you probably got a single fiber system where the fiber was multi-mode, so you where not hearing the difference between multi-mode and single-mode.

 

BTW single fiber systems are usually used where the distances are long where going with a single fiber results in a cost savings. In a single fiber fiber system the cost of the modules is generally greater than the cost of an equivalent two fiber system, so it is usually only worth it if the cost savings of only one fiber offsets the  greater cost of the single fiber modules.

 

So if you really want to hear the difference with single-mode fiber you will need to get modules  designed for single-mode use (they have the "funnels") and fiber that is single-mode as well, it is probably best to stay with 2 fiber systems.

 

I hope that makes things a little clearer.

 

Note the analogies given are not what is actually happening, they are given soley as a means of giving some flavor as to what is happening inside a fiber.

 

John S.

 

 

Thanks, John.  Here’s what I am using now:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008IH948G/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008EN3H0A/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

I believe this is what they replaced:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U77VPX2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LC-to-LC-Fiber-Optic-Patch-Cable-3m-OM1-Duplex-Multimode-62-5-125-Orange-new-/184255010890?hash=item2ae674584a

 

(I might be confused about the replaced items because I have two fiber setups in the house and have changed pieces a couple of times in each, but I think these are the pieces in the system that uses the ER.)

 

 

 

[Mike Rubin]

I use the A side SFP as the connection to my optical device, with the ethernet feed from another switch connected to the eR.  The eR is powered by an ultra Cap 1.2.

 

My system never has sounded better. I can't think of one aspect of music reproduction that isn't at least a bit better and some - bass and imaging - are much better. I don't notice any concomitant downside.

 

All in all, in my system, anyway, using the eR as an FMC is a superb idea, especially if you don't need to use the extra A side connections. 

[Mike Rubin]

I don't know how to create those slick flow charts, so I will repeat in prose what my signature below states:

 

Synology DS218+ NAS and NUC 10 i7 (Roon/Jriver/Audirvana -> copper ethernet cables -> xfinity xfi router -> copper ethernet cable —> Netgear unmanaged switch -> copper ethernet cable -> etherRegen B side -> SFP -> optical fiber cable -> SFP -> Sonore Signature Rendu SE optical version (built-in SFP port) -> USB cable -> DAC. 

[Mike Rubin]

26 minutes ago, sot13 said:

This is great. Got it. So, you have eR reversed i.e. from B to A so you can connect fiber going ultimately to your DAC. Thank you

Exactly right!

[Mike Rubin]

25 minutes ago, fuzzypoodle said:

@Mike Rubin ... off topic ... can you share the details on your creative shelf for vertically housing ER+LPS ? ... never ending expansion of small LPS and cables calls for creative real estate solutions! :)

It is this piece:

 

Hivexagon 2 Slot Vertical Laptop... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085MC6ZGL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

[Mike Rubin]

15 minutes ago, fuzzypoodle said:

Thanks! ... and what are the footers underneath ?

The Vibrapod-branded version of these, bought from Audio Advisor about 30 years ago.  These Pangea ones look like exactly the same product, just relabeled  to the AA house brand.  
 

They have absolutely zero impact on sound quality that I can hear, but they do get the stand off the shelf enough to improve the air circulation a bit.  I can’t measure temps, though, so I don’t know if they actually have any prophylactic effect in the overheating department.  The eR and Cap 1.2 both still run quite warm despite my ventilation efforts.

 

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGMEGA

[Mike Rubin]

8 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

check if the SFP module is actually connected

had to push it "pretty hard" in my ER's SFP cage to make it work

Same here.  It requires quite a push to seat it.  Also, be careful that it doesn't dislodge if you have occasion to move the eR around at all. Mine has come loose while unplugging and re-plugging my rendu at the *other* end of the optical cable and when placing vibrapods under the notebook stand that holds my eR in an upright position. 

[Mike Rubin]

24 minutes ago, reruam said:

You guys are right....

however...

there’s a “lock” switch or something..

the small black lever...

engaged..doesn’t work..

left down or open..it works...

whatever...

 

Thank you!!

That's peculiar, but happy to hear that fiddling got it working. 

[Mike Rubin]

9 hours ago, frednork said:

My ER has started freezing at random times. I have been using it for a long time with no issues I initially had it running on 12 volt and after I changed to 9v the problem seems a little less frequent but it is happening about once an hour and often in the middle of a track. Sorry if its already been covered but this thread is getting pretty long now...

Just out of curiosity, are you using Audirvana on a Windows machine?  I ask because I have a similar issue when playing through Audirvana, not not with JRiver or Roon. I therefore have assumed it is a software issue. 

[Mike Rubin]

I have been running at 12v with an LPS 1.2 for a year. Everything does run hot, but I haven't had reliability issues of which I am aware. 

[Mike Rubin]

44 minutes ago, GMG said:

Maybe it was already covered somewhere but there are too many threads and answers around this so I have to ask myself :-)

I plan to add an optical Rendu to my system and my question about recommended chain with ER and Optical Rendu, with and without Optical Module Deluxe

what would you guys recommend:

1. Router --> Optical Module Deluxe --> Optical Rendu
2. Router --> ER copper B to Optical A side --> Optical Rendu
3. Router --> Copper ER A to B --> Optical Module Deluxe --> Optical Rendu
4. Router --> standard optical converter --> Optical ER A side to  Copper B side --> Optical Module Deluxe --> Optical Rendu

My tendency is to think that option 2 is probably the simplest and best configuration, but then I'm left with nothing to do with my optical module deluxe :-),

Option 3 on one hand uses the ER in the preferred orientation but on the other hand adds the Optical module deluxe as another piece in the chain. 

I use option 2 with my optical Rendu.

 

My ER replaced an Optical Module (original version), which replaced a TrendNet FMC.  The ER is a clear SQ upgrade.

 

I have no idea if other options work better, but, if you have a new OM Deluxe, it’s easy enough to test option 3.  
 

I didn’t bother.  Instead, I used my TrendNet FMC and the OM to introduce an optical segment in the chain connecting the ultraRendu in my second system to the router.

[Mike Rubin]

I have a dilemma.

 

I have had my Signature Rendu SE Optical connected via A side SPF, with the copper coming out of the wall going into the B side.  Unfortunately, the rendu currently is on the fritz, so I switched temporarily to a Raspberry Pi 4 running Ropieee XL, which needs a copper connection.  I turned the ER around in my cabinet, ran the wall cable to the ER A side and another cable from the ER B side to the Pi.  

 

The Pi actually sounds great, but I am going to go back to using the rendu when I get it up and running again.  However, I would like to keep the Pi connected as well.  

 

So here's the issue:  I recall that a device using the SPF should be the only one connected to the A side, and that’s how I have run it before now, but that's not possible if I want to keep the Pi and Rendu connected at the same time.  Is there a way to keep both the SPF connection, a copper connection to the Pi, and the copper from the wall to the ER all running without loss of the ER’s isolation virtues?

[Mike Rubin]

35 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You could of cause purchase a second EtherRegen 😀 (I think that’s the only way). 
 

But how about use the pi as now, and add your opticalModule between EtherRegen A and the Signature SE? 

Yes, I definitely am trying to save the cost of the second ER. :) 

 

I can try my optical module off the A side, although I am running out of electric outlets in the vicinity of my equipment.  I wonder if that is a better idea, however, than adding a cheap switch off the wall tap and connecting both the ER feed and the Pi to it. I wouldn't get the benefit of ER for the Pi but it would be a Plan B device, anyway, for circumstances in which the rendu is offline for some reason, and I don't know how much use it actually is going to have. 

[Mike Rubin]

@R1200CL, great idea. Thank you. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, Mihaylov said:

Why do you think that? I think all connectors can be used at the same time. Anyway I'm using spf, two connectors on the A side and a connector on the B side.

I think that because I have a specific recollection of that having been recommended on this very thread a long time ago.  @Superdad or @JohnSwenson can confirm. 

 

I like @R1200CL's suggestion because it both allows me to use optical and frees up the other three switch ports even if it doesn't give me the benefit of the moat. 

 

[Mike Rubin]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

You will have the benefit of the moat towards the Signature Rendu, but you must probably be very selective with the power supply used for the opticalModule deLux. 

 

Look at it as the opticalModule is an EtherRegen without the moat (and possibly degrading phase noise used in B>A). So ideally the opticalModule is the “perfect” converter after the moat. 

 

Thinking more of this, and my reaping request on an EtherRegen with B side optical out, this suggested solution may be the answer right in front of us (opticalRendu users), and we just haven’t taught about it. 
 

I hope more Rendu users can test this solution out. 
 

To bad we can’t have (yet?) an opticalModule with external clock 😀

 

Edit

You where specific about the 3 ethernet ports on A side. That’s correct. You would need another EtherRegen to achieve the moat a second time. 

Sorry to say this and maybe it is an issue of the power supply that I am using (CAPS 1.2), but I can't get the rendu to see the network when the optical module is on the B side. It works at least sporadically on the A side, but really is rock steady reliable only when connected directly to the wall plate.  (I have sent @Superdad an email about the possibility that my EtherRegen is going south, especially because the SFP receptacle on the A side no longer seems functional, as well.) 

[Mike Rubin]

3 minutes ago, PYP said:

Is it a oM deluxe or the older model?  Older model won't work after the eR, I think.  

Original.  I didn't realize this, but it is good to know because it has been driving me crazy. Is it because of a speed mismatch? 

[Mike Rubin]

2 minutes ago, PYP said:

yes.  When I had the original oM, it worked well before the eR, but it wouldn't work at all after.  Then I started to research the problem and understood the purpose of the deluxe - to be compatible with the requirements of more gear.  

I may need to update, then. This hobby is a cash sink

[Mike Rubin]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Thanks for doing a yoeman’s job with your efforts to assist @Mike Rubin and @mfsoa. Appreciated…

I appreciate this, too. Simple enough solution, although I may be moving away from optical altogether because I haven't found it to be as reliable as copper. 

 

Alex, I still have the question I raised with you in my email about the SPF port issue.

[Mike Rubin]

44 minutes ago, Superdad said:

If so, where on your network is your music server? And from what is your network router feed coming from?

Is the behavior any different if—as a test—you run your network feed into one of the other ‘A’-side ports of the EtherREGEN?

 

I’m posting this here because I don’t have any other  ideas for you at the moment. Perhaps someone else here will.

Sorry, Alex. Didn't mean to rush you.  That was just a reminder that the comments here were helpful but that I still have a threshold issue when you have a chance. 

 

The server is a NUC10i7 in my basement office. It is connected directly to the router in the office. The EtherRegen is upstairs, connected to a wall plate connected to a switch, to which the router is connected via a basement wall plate. 

 

I have run the LAN cable into both sides of the EtherRegen while troubleshooting. I now understand why the optical module doesn't work on the B side, but it connects the rendu to the network when on the A side, regardless of which side the LAN cable hits. 

 

I am concerned that the SFP port on the EtherRegen isn't working now because moving the SFP to the optical module at least gets the rendu to join the network.  

 

For now, I have moved my ultrarendu (copper, not optical) upstairs and the LAN cable is connected to it directly. It is working well, although it is not as good as the Signature SE is. To troubleshoot, I will connect the optical module and Sig SE to my desktop DAC. If that works, I will ask you to have a look at the EtherRegen itself. 

 

Thanks for posting here and for your help. 

[Mike Rubin]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Well that's a lot of hops.  If you were using Roon I would say that is for sure your source of the trouble.  Still might be.

 

>> I don't disagree, but haven't had a similar issue for the last two years using the identical setup, so I am a bit skeptical.

 

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I'd like to leave the opticalModule out of the equation for troubleshooting. (I can only support one product at a time. )

I asked "Is the behavior any different if—as a test—you run your network feed into one of the other ‘A’-side ports of the EtherREGEN?"  Please let us know the answer to that. 

>> Before introducing the optical module to the system upstairs, I tried that during my troubleshooting.  I will try it again.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

But you reported: "I can reach my optical rendu over the web, it shows there is a DAC connection, and it appears as an end point to HQ Player, DLNA/UPnP, and LMS..."

 

The SFP of your EtherREGEN is fine. While we have seen some SFP transceiver module incompatibilities (electrical or mechanical), we have never had an instance where an SFP port did not work--the entire 'A' side and entire EtherREGEN would be down then.

 

>>Just so we are clear, the SFP allows the rendu to see the network when it is fed by the optical module but not when the SFP is connected to the etherRegen's SFP port.  If that makes no difference, I will try that all again, but I have been troubleshooting from that setup for days now.

 

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Happy to check out your unit but I'd be more interested in you moving some things around and making test with other cables, transceivers, software, and just network web surfing tests. When we test EtherREGENs here, we are not using music players, Rendus, or anything audio.  We are testing that it works as a switch in all modes and with all connections. As long as it does so without any glitches we call that good.  And since there are plenty of optcalRendu (and Lumin X1) EtherREGEN owners using B>A for SFP output, we are confident in compatibility there.

 

>>I can test with other ethernet cables, but, if I want to test other transceivers and optical cables, I have to buy those as I don't know where I put the ones I had before I purchased the current Finistars.  I guess I can do that.

What other software would be a good test?  I have used JRiver, Audirvana, MinimServer, Volumio, Roon, and HQP Desktop and Embedded, controlled by my desktop computer, by web interfaces, on an Android phone, and on an iPad, as the case may be, for troubleshooting all this. 

I do know that B>A can work beautifully as it was great before a few days ago.

 

20 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Really sorry that this has become a frustrating situation for you Mike.  Computer audio can be a pain but we don't want it to spoil the fun of playing music!

 

>>As I have to tell my wife every time she sees me spend hours troubleshooting this stuff, we no longer just put a CD in a tray, close it up, and press "play."  I don't feel like a network novice, but I definitely feel that my knowledge limits and capabilities are being tested.