EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[bailyhill]

4 hours ago, Ponkbutler said:

i currently use two Catalyst 2960 PD routers in my system with a similar configuration to what you recommend for the ER. This yields positive SQ benefits compared to just the one. I am about to buy an ER in the UK. In your experience and that of users, would there be any benefit to using two ER switches in my installation in the same way (so that one is also used as the “main switch”)? FWIW the system streams Quobuz to a Roon Nucleus with internal SSD to feed a Naim ND555 streamer/router.

 

MTIA

 

Mike

Hello Ponkbutler--Not quite your case, but may be relevant.  I too have a single Catalyst 2960 feeding my system.(used to have an ND555).  I added the ER and things were better with the ER.  Also 2 switches better than ER alone.  I plug everything into the Catalyst (Router, Nucleus+, and Naim Unity Core) and then a single copper ethernet to the A side of the ER and then a single copper ethernet cable from the B port on the ER to the DAC.  This gives the best SQ.  Makes we wonder if 2 ER's would be better.  Using the stock ps.  TIDAL to Nucleus+.  No optical involved.  Router is 5 meters away from ER.  Using 1 meter BJ cables to connect all else.

[bailyhill]

On 12/2/2019 at 4:20 PM, Superdad said:

 

Hi:

While I am not sure of the cause of the problem you are experiencing, I can say with certainty that it is NOT a temperature issue. We torture-tested EtherREGEN units for quite some time at very high heats.

I'd like to know a little more about your Audionet DNP and what Ethernet input card it uses (their own design or perhaps licensed from Conversdigital or the Swiss company that used to be known as ABCpcb).

Can you do a test with everything on the 'A' side jacks of the EtherREGEN? Do you still have connection issues then? And are you certain that the new firmware flashed correctly (virtual drive disappearing upon copy is the only confirmation)?

 

Please keep us posted. Thanks.

--Alex C.

Hello Alex

 

Could you tell me the details of the temperature tests?  How many ports were connected? what was the ambient temp? how long did the test run? was music/info being transmitted?  What was the case temp?   I am having similar issues to Avalfa.  

[bailyhill]

This is one of the most professional and neat installations I have seen.  Great Job.  For me, if it looks right, it probably will

sound right.  I have a hard time with a ball of spaghetti.  Thanks for sharing.  

[bailyhill]

I am 1 month in on my ER.  Its sounding great driving my Merridian Ultra Dac.    My system is Router in the LR, a floor below the Music Room.  I run a 15 foot copper ethernet cable upstairs.  It feeds my Cisco Catalyst 2960G switch, which also has the Nucleus+ and Unity Core connected via copper ethernet cables.  Then a single copper ethernet cable connects the Cisco to the A side of the ER.  Then a single copper ethernet cable connects the B side of the ER to the DAC.  Sounds very nice.  

 

In learning a little more, I have a question.  If we are trying to eliminate noise, it seems like I should put an Optical Rendu at the Router.  Then run 15 feet of Optical Cable upstairs to the Cisco which has an optical SPF I believe its called.  This would minimize any transmitted as well as conducted noise on the Ethernet signal. 

 

As an alternate, I could also deploy a second ER replacing the Cisco--running it backwards to input the optical from the OR to the B side of the ER and then taking the A side output of this ER and running it to the A side of the existing ER, and then connecting the B side of the ER to the DAC.  

 

It might seem over the top, but at the level of a Meridian Ultra Dac or a Naim ND555, we don't want anything contaminating those units.  Same can be said for Brinkman, DcS, MSB etc.  Comments and Suggestions?

[bailyhill]

Ah yes, I have that wrong.  I will mod the drwg and repost.  Thanks for that.  I do optical astronomy all day and night, but combining optical and music is new to me.  

[bailyhill]

Here is a revised system diagram.  Hope that its correct.  I have also designated the second ER to be optional.  Comments welcome.

[bailyhill]

Yes I tried the ER alone and with the Cisco.  Much preferred the sound of the pair.  I am thinking to get a second ER, but also thinking

of using the optical cable from the router, via the system diagram above.  I am kind of waiting to hear John or others weigh in before 

taking that plunge.

 

Current using the Cisco first, then the ER.  Using wire Ethernet to connect all.

[bailyhill]

Hello Lobbster--thanks for the info and feedback.  You posted that "The Cisco 2960's cannot make direct optical connection to the ER. The SFP slots are for Uplink to the network."    That is good to know about the Cisco's.  Can you explain what you mean by the SFP slots are for uplink to the network?  Not challenging this, just wanting to learn what this means.  I guess I will have to try the 2 Er's and maybe the OM?  

 

 

[bailyhill]

I would also suggest, with what has been posted about the thermal settling of crystal oscillators, that the only way to make a proper comparison is to power up things and let them set for a while, like maybe a day and then listen.  After getting a good measure of SQ, then change to the external clock, let it settle for a day and listen again.  AB testing will not be very helpful in this case for sure.  

[bailyhill]

Try changing the BJC and see if that makes a difference.  I did this and it seemed that 

the rather stiff BJC was causing some intermittent contact.  Went to L-com Cat 5a and it stopped.  Have used the BJC since, by carefully choosing them so that they did not create a torque on the ER, and everything was ok.  I had 5 cables, so it was easy to choose ones with the orientation of the connectors suitable to just slide into the Er or the other gear.  Cable Management might be the issue.

 

[bailyhill]

The manual and Uptone website suggests the B side as close to the dac as possible.  If you have more items plugged into the BS switch, you can cascade it with the ER.  I got best results cascading the classic Cisco 2960 and the ER.  I plugged several things

into the Cisco and cascade that to the ER to the A side, and from the B side directly to my DAC,

 

Experiment a bit, as all systems are different.

[bailyhill]

Hello Roasty

 

Cascade is a term used in control theory to mean where two units are connected in series.  Over on the Naim Forum, they use 

the term Cascade to describe this connection.  Since you are using 6 ports into the gibabit switch, you probably want to continue to do that and connect the 7th port to the A side of the ER.  Most who have tried the cascade of the Cisco with the ER, or 2 Ciscos have reported an uplift in sound.  No one knows why.

[bailyhill]

I have had mine since November last year (3-4 months).  To answer you question, it has gotten so good, that I don;t turn it off and I have stopped tweaking, as I am afraid I am going to undo something.  That said, I did order some additional Designacables 6a, that will tidy up my install, so they don't have to do loop-loops to take up some slack.  The ER is the second biggest uptick in SQ for me, second to the Merridian Ultra Dac that I got last year.  

[bailyhill]

PYP

Have you posted about the opticalModule?  I am considering adding it to my setup.  I too leave my eR and other equipment on all the time, except when I am away for a week or more.  I shut down my Krell KSA 80B however, which is class A and heats a room.

[bailyhill]

I am no expert in this area, but from what I know, I would not install one of these with the 1 megohm resistor in place.  This limits the 

drain current and as I understand, the ground is there for safety reasons.  Under a failure, I would thing you would want a direct

path to ground.  As I say, this is not my field, perhaps those who know more can make a case that would make sense to use these.

I will not putting one in my system at this time.

[bailyhill]

I was thinking of adding LPS to my eR and my Nucleus+.  Been running on the stock units.  Tried to order the HD Plex 200 Watt unit, with 12Vdc and 19vdc it would have been ideal for these two units .  Unfortunately out of stock (Made in Germany--pretty shut down from Covid 19).  Sean Jacobs also long lead time.  Looked at Uptone also.  Would love a dual voltage unit from Uptone.  Some have Super Caps?  JS has some cred as a result of eR.  But I did something I usually don't do, that is shop on the bay and found the EndZone units.  Bought a 12vdc@6 amps and a [email protected] amps. Units delivered last week, and sprayed down and sat for 24 hours before install.  Very nice.  There is a nice description about the features.  Not a EE so I cannot vouch for this, but at <$400 for both with shipping and duty, I felt I could always use another dc supply in my shop, so I pulled the trigger.  These units do not come with the power cable, so I am in the market for a couple of reasonably priced HQ power cables.  Anyone try the Shielded ones on Audiogon? 

 

The SQ uptic was nice.  I would like to add an external clock, but JS/Alex info suggests its a big upgrade at this point.  All this running on Nucleus+, Cisco 2960 cascading with eR, Meridian Ultra Dac, Krell KSA-80B, Apogee Scintilla One Ohms on Townshend Podiums, Vandersteen Sub 3's, Inakustics P3500's conditioners, and Roon.  Very revealing.  eR made a big uptic, which I thought it was pretty good to start with.  Thanks John and Alex.  Its even better.  The router, Nucleus+, Naim Unity Core into the Cisco and a single lead to the "A" side of the eR and an Audioquest Vodka from the "B Side" of the eR to the Meridian Ultra Dac.  No grounding of eR.  

 

And thanks for the tip--I opened up the case and the ground is connected on the IEC connector, unlike some that were mentioned on this forum.  All be safe.  Follow the regulations and lets beat Covid 19 together.  Audio is a nice diversion from the News.

[bailyhill]

Sounds like a JS question.

[bailyhill]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

As explained a few times in the past: Since we are using a (jitter-attenuating) differential output clock synthesizer to produce the 4 required clock lines, and since that part has two inputs for reference, we had an extra input and it was cheap and easy to add a BNC and programming for a 10MHz external.

Initially done as a feature to match our much pricier competitor (who charges an extra $250 to add a BNC jack with a long wire to their clock synth), but since used and enjoyed by people who already have fine external reference clocks such as Mutec REF10, Cybershaft, and others.

 

 

I think we are still not following each other here:

 

a) A board with a large, power hungry OXCO would never fit in our unit or be able to be powered there on the 'B' side.

In this pic you see the Crystal CCHD-575 below the switch (and of course no clock goes through that switch; its position is just checked at power-up so the right programming code is sent to set up the synth for internal 25MHz or external 10MHz), and 3mm below that is the clock synthesizer, which in turn is less than 2mm from a critical clock buffer.

 

b) If we were going to spend hundreds on an OXCO to better the 575 (and again, that is what it takes, even at volume; no $65 OCXO is going to come close to the part we use), it would go on the main board, be fed very clean power, and have isolation circuitry around it. A "daughter-board" would be a pointless compromise.

 

c) The EtherREGEN is about much more than just clocking. Even those who are using the $3,500 Mutec REFE10 with it have said that the improvement is slight compared to what the EtherREGEN itself brings to the table.

 

Hope you enjoy yours. Many thanks,

--Alex C.

 

 

Thanks Alex for your info on clocks.  I realize that spending 3.5K for a Mutec at first blush sounds ridiculous to feed a $640 EtherRegen.  However, when one considers that some folks are fortunate enough to have $50K to $100k into their systems, another $3.5K is of the order of a small upgrade.  If someone has $3K in their system, then a Mutec is probably not appropriate, unless they are "building" on the way to something bigger.  

[bailyhill]

4 minutes ago, k-man said:

It is ridiculous to spend 3.5k to feed the the EtherRegen. The option is there to appeal to those who are likely to already own one based on connecting it those existing devices (mainly the SOtM gear). Think of the amazing things one can use the 3.5k for..new music server, DAC upgrade.

 

Hello K-man

I agree with you somewhat.  Last month I went for an LG UST Projector and VividStorm Screen for my music room instead of the Mutec.  Same cost involved and my wife and I are enjoying the video setup--I am not a videophile so did not go BIG for that, but a nice one.  I like the fact that the screen is a floor rising unit, that can be lowered such that it does not affect the SQ between the speakers.  That being said, I find that I prefer the sound with the screen up--I guess its like room treatment.  Behind the screen is a pleated light block shade that apparently was having some comb filter issues with the imaging--not a problem, just better without--anecdotal evidence only.  

 

I have already upgraded the music server (Nucleus+/Roon) and DAC (Meridian Ultra Dac) and the SW (Vandersteen 3's) so there are not too many options left.  After Covid, I might consider a Mutec 6 months down the road.  Perhaps I should consider donating that money to a more worthy cause--those that are hurting out there.   We are sheltering at home, but still manage to do my part to keep the economy going and have used Amazon Prime for many things in the past few weeks.  I am 75 years old/young, so in the sunset portion of life, so this is

my last system.

 

Be Safe--enjoy your music.

[bailyhill]

14 minutes ago, k-man said:

When you have done so much in your life, I can only say you have most definitely earnt that right to be quite liberal in how you can get or spend your system for your hobby, especially as it’s your last. I am a little more than half your age with 2 little kids to feed, and being a NHS essential worker (thank goodness not the brave frontliners), that puts my spending in priorities other than hifi. 

 

K-Man--been there--done that:  I have two girls, nearly 40 years old.  Source of great pride.  Eldest is a Navy Test Pilot--now a Captain and been in 20+ years--2 deployments in wars--MIT Aero Astro Grad.  Youngest is special needs educator/assistant director/PhD--did not let her sister out do her.  Being an engineer/manager, not sure where this sense of service came from--probably my wife, a retired nurse.

 

Thanks for NHS workers who are working behind the scenes and to all those brave frontliners.  Not sure I could do that.

[bailyhill]

Bazza13--Small quibble with your conclusion.  Maybe use some silver content, but until you test 90-100% silver cables, you conclusion over-reaches the experiment you have performed.  It would be interesting to try higher content/other cables.  But with so many variables, hard to do.  Does Pangea make a similar cable with Cardas with higher silver content?

 

[bailyhill]

I can support this argument with my experience with the new HXPLEX 300 Watt supply, which has 4 outputs--a 12vdc which powers my er, a 19 vdc which powers my Nucleus+, and 2 variable outs which I do not use at this time.  This supply is so quite, you cannot determine if its on, and it runs very cool.  No measurements but my hand tells me its probably no more than 80 deg F--about 27 deg C.  

 

And btw;  it does very nice uptick in sq for the eR and Nuc+.  Very happy with it.

[bailyhill]

I have a HDPLEX 300W power supply that has 4 outputs.  I am using the 12 vdc for the eR and the 19 vdc (both fixed) for my Nucleus+.  Someone has suggested that this defeats much of the moat for the eR.  I thought that if the grounds were separate, that this negated that issue.  Can you tell me if the grounds are separate on this ps and if its ok to power these two devices this way?  If not familiar, how can I test this supply to see if its the case.

[bailyhill]

I am late to this post, but I bought one of the second batch of eR's and having a Nucleus and Tidal, to the eR A side and then the B side going to my Meridian Ultra Dac, I believe.  It works and has for years.  Not sure why you are having issues.  I did have things stop, and had the Nucleus upgrade to the latest version, and it plugged in and is playing fine.  Could that be the issue?