EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi: Sorry if this became confusing for you.  Let me see if I can make it clear.

The Sonore opticalModule is an excellent FMC (fiber media converter), probably the best on the planet. But its technology is a subset of the EtherREGEN's and so if using an EtherREGEN with a Sonore opticalRendu, the opticalModule is not needed. It is always desirable to have the EtherREGEN as the last device in the chain just before whatever is the computer/streamer/renderer endpoint--in your case the opticalRendu.

That is an overly zealous comment.

[vortecjr]

11 hours ago, jcn3 said:

I'm not clear on why you needed to post this -- he paid your product a significant compliment AND he posted in his own sponsored area.  since you are a vendor and have your own sponsored area, the comment doesn't seem appropriate to me.

I'm responding to a post about my products which under the forum rules I'm allowed to do.

 

With all do respect to Alex and John, we are industry friends and partners and the EtherREGEN is a great product, but this needs more discussion and consideration.

 

So here is the why:

1. The opticalModule, EtherREGEN, and a TP link optical FMC can all provide 100% galvanic isolation and all three will block leakage current into a opticalRendu;

2. Taking things a bit further the opticalModule and the EtherREGEN both have low noise oscillators and low noise power regulation on board. According to John's hypothesis having these upstream deminishes the clock signature. This hasn't been measured and the measurements haven't been compared between products;

3. Understanding 1 and 2, why would it ever be desirable to have the EtherREGEN as the last device in the chain just before whatever is the computer/streamer/renderer endpoint? Do computer/streamer/renderer endpoint have 100% galvanic isolation, low noise oscillators, and low noise power supplies on their network inputs....almost none do but the optical Rendu does:)    

[vortecjr]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

Of course my friend.  I thought several of those other responses to you were harsh and deleted them much earlier.

 

 

While the galvanic isolation, low noise power supplies, and low-jitter oscillators common to the very fine Sonore and UpTone products are important and comparable, the EtherREGEN is about more than that. Its active differential isolation moat and ultra-low-jitter reclocking flops aim to erase the phase-noise fingerprint of upstream clocks--which cause ground- and power-plane noise on the board and inside the chips. This is what @JohnSwenson is gearing up to directly measure. And his explanation of the mechanisms will be part of the white paper which will accompany those measures.

Until such time as we are ready to publish that, all we can go on as proof of the concept are the many positive experiences which EtherREGEN users are having--including a number of opticalModule and opticalRendu owners who have posted in detail about the synergy between each of these Swenson designs.

No need...I welcome the descending opinions and comments. We don’t need to agree on everything and discussion is necessary to furthering our understanding. I know you and I are after the same thing and that is to understand this completely and scientifically.

 

I understand the moat, the flip flops, and the clock fingerprint concept but those measurements are needed for validation and IMHO you should wait and proceed with caution about claiming things. If John is correct even an opticalModule will diminish the effect of the clock fingerprint. However, I don’t claim this anywhere in the marketing of the product because we lack the measurements to prove it. I also don’t think it’s audible but that is another discussion.
 

Also, in regards to my comment #3 above what good will the moat, the flip flops, and the clock fingerprint concept have if you are connecting to crappy endpoints which themselves will inject the very thing you are trying to isolate into your DAC. People need to understand this if it has any chance of working as John intends. Its not possible to achieve what John is trying to do with typical computers, streaming DACs, and some endpoints. 

[vortecjr]

20 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Its not possible to achieve what John is trying to do with typical computers, streaming DACs, and some endpoints. 

 

Common sense suggests that any reduction in phase noise/voltage noise/jitter injected into the recipient would decrease the overall noise within its enclosure. Consequently, we should expect a more precise and "cleaner" output signal. 

 

Of course, the improvement may not be audible if the recipient self-generated "filth" drowns any improvement in the input signal. 

I have spoken to John about this on several occasions and he feels that the clock closest to the DAC is the most important one because the effect of the clock fingerprint diminishes as it passes from gear to gear. Unfortunately, I think you are correct about the filth.  We are talking about devices with incredibly low noise floors and distinguishing something will be very difficult.

[vortecjr]

15 minutes ago, Cable Monkey said:

You cannot mitigate someone’s choice to use an endpoint that generates its own noise. But the moat works both ways so at least it shouldn’t impact anything connected on the A side. In short it may not sound (or measure) as good as other devices but at least it won’t be detrimental to other things on the network.

No one is mitigating anyones choice here. Also we’re not talking about the A side of the device. Clearly anything connected to the A side will have no effect on the rest of the network upstream.

[vortecjr]

14 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

 

please be more explicit as "crappy endpoints" doesn't help/educate/give any clue to potential customers: which endpoints are you calling "crappy"? make/model, please: purpose of this forum is helping people make good choices, isn't it? 

 

or, at the very least: what do you suggest as the bare minimum of "good enough"? again: make/model!

I didn’t want to be that direct:) 

[vortecjr]

13 minutes ago, rickca said:

JS has explained why the ER B-side is limited to 100 Mbps.  Why was the OM designed with to be gigabit only with no autonegotiation to 100 Mbps?  @vortecjr or @JohnSwenson can you please explain?

No particular reason.

[vortecjr]

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

It seems to me this isn't a good time for Alex and John to be mKing any effort to argue design choices with "friends and partners". They are in the middle of a product rollout and major manufacturing push.

 

At a minimum this discussion, if it needs to continue, should be had in a another thead.

 

 

Don't try to curtail this discussion.

 

Also also, if you’re going to make things and sell things through this forum why don’t you sponsor it and pay Chris for your advertisement.

[vortecjr]

9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Anything not made by @vortecjr can be considered "crappy" in his world.  It's funny and ironic how he makes such broad assumptions without any measurements.   When in doubt, he also seems to hear a lot less than many others on this forum, which is always a convenient fallback position.

I think we do a pretty good job. I also take plenty of measurements, as does John, and sometimes I have been known to post them here but not everyone appreciates the message. However off the shelf boards are not going to have good oscillators and clean power regulation circuits feeding them. Also can’t ignore the fact that some DACs are using $12 network cards. 

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, lmitche said:

I am not trying to stop this discussion. I am trying to change when and at a minimum where it happens.

 

This thread is about EtherREGEN Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions and not a place to compare similar products. 

This is the perfect thread to discuss the installation and usage of the unit.

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, Cable Monkey said:

Not so clear to me. If you mean by upstream, back into the network I’d have to disagree. On the A side you are not isolated from the network so any noise you introduce there will have an impact, though that may well be attenuated by Johns work. But if you have something noisy like a “crappy endpoint” on the B side that won’t have any impact back into the network even though it will affect the associated DAC. That was what I was trying to say.

We are on the same page.

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, Bernstein said:

I want be crystal clear!
 

For me the discussion around the topic is interesting from a measurements point of view but imho started by @vortecjrHIGHLY colored with business / marketing interest in

mind. It doesn’t help or add something to the knowledge of the community, rather creating “loose” ends of understanding based on not proven facts and accusations. 
Knowing, that John Swenson is also working with Sonore, I only can summarize the discussion of @vortecjr as not knowing how to behave, communicate and act in public with respect of other people and especially  the people working with him. 

I have valid concerns and it doesn’t matter how many high fives you get. I think it’s disingenuous to promote a connection scheme which goes against the very premise of the device. I’m sorry that you don’t like the concern or the message behind it but that’s the reality of the situation.

[vortecjr]

8 hours ago, Jud said:

I agree with @lmitche. @vortecjr, understood that @Superdad said something about use and placement of the EtherREGEN you disagree with. Think such disagreements and/or the parameters of fair comment would be better hashed out in PMs, not because I have a desire to curtail useful discussion, but because I'd like the discussion to remain useful rather than degenerate.

There is really nothing to hash out. I can’t help it if people want to instigate.

[vortecjr]

12 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Please stop.  I do not know what you mean by "a connection scheme which goes against the very premise of the device." EtherREGEN? opticalRendu? I don't really care and I think you are confusing people.

UpTone is not targeting Sonore customers. But some of the same people choose to purchase products from both brands. John wanted to include an optical SFP cage on the EtherREGEN and to make the unit symmetrical so that opticalRendu users could use it and benefit. Which a reasonable number have already reported they are. Seems simple enough to me. 

I'm sorry you are confused. I'm simply asking, because I'm curious. How does connecting a device with poor clocks and poor power regulation circuits to the output of an EtherREGEN preserve the significant reduction in phase-noise fingerprint? Put another way doesn't the dirty device inject its phase-noise fingerprint into the DAC anyway. When you say connecting anything to the output of the EtherREGEN is always desirable you are confusing me.     

[vortecjr]

My guess is that they are experiencing the effect of galvanic isolation. I have been hearing about the benefits of optical isolation since the early days of the mR. Anyway, I’ll make sure Adrian and Barrows get to try it out as well. 

[vortecjr]

31 minutes ago, Superdad said:

At some point John will have the measurements and the we’ll release those with an understandable white paper (from which Sonore will benefit as well). Maybe you will be satisfied then.  (By the way, I continue to recommend the Rendu series to clients more than a dozen times every year—yet have no measurements to back them up. )

Until such time, please knock it off and stop crapping in this thread!

I'm happy to provide you measurements. I always reciprocate and recommend your products to customers.       

[vortecjr]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

Thanks, but I am not. I’m just trying to a business in a conscientious fashion and to keep up with the daily support, logistics, and production demands that come along with offering quality products that perform and are reasonably priced. Frankly, it is difficult and overwhelming sometimes, and I am approaching a crossroads where I have to consider hiring a non-production person to assist (mostly with parts procurement, inventory, accounting, and shipping logistics). Despite the success, there can be a lot of stress. 

 

This has to stop now!  From all sides.

Jesus and I have had a friendly relationship for several years. And even though we occasionally chafe with each other as we vie alternately for John’s engineering time, offline we have reached reasonable agreements. I’m not going to allow some fine points of product positioning get in the way of any of this.

And I sure as heck am not going to tolerate anyone—in the UpTone-sponsored forum—throwing insults at anyone else.

Life is too short and my blood pressure is probably too high...

I have been thinking about using Amazon and have applied for product SKUs as a test. 

 

My apologies Alex...I'm out.