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I've got two extension leads/strip coming out of the wall socket, one for 3 SMPSs (laptop + router + NAS), the other for LSPU (Network Audio Adapter) + DAC + integrated amplifier.

Would it be worth spending on a mains conditioner lead/strip for the SMPSs?

Thanks.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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9 hours ago, mansr said:

That's a noisy rendering of a low-level 1 kHz tone. It has nothing to do with digital data transmission.

 

What does digital transmission over wire render like in a graph?

I've never seen it but would be interested.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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13 hours ago, sandyk said:

That does not mean that they are unable to outperform HDD with Audio.

In my case, I also have 2 SSDs mounted in the metal drive bays of my PC in aluminium carriers , and they use 2 separate  low noise regulated +5V supplies derived from the internal +12V rail, and are connected from the regulators which are mounted on the bottom metalwork of the PC via short screened PSU leads.

They are connected to the Motherboard using no longer than necessary screened SATA 6.0Gps A leads, not the generic 7 wires side by side type.

 

I guess from your post that you think that one type of data storage is clearly better than the other, SQ vice. I must admit that it’s hard to know exactly with the double negative 😉. No matter what you meant to say no type of digital storage is by design so much better that it outperform all the other ones in all kind of use.

 

As with everything else one design may be better in one way and another in a different way. Without going in to details many SSD and M2 with big catch buffer can be quite fast, but also generate HF noise. HDD is much slower, needs more power and create a lot of vibration. Vibrations can have a negative effect on clocks and other components normally used together with HDD.  

 

The best storage solution is not always the same and depends on what is going to be stored on the disc, how fast does it have to operate, will the vibrations have a greater negative impact than the HF noise and can the HF noise be reduced by ferrites or SDD filters?

 

I did “test” some different disc solution a few years ago and thought that the slower green HDD worked best for storage music and a small separate SSD for OS was best.

                                                           

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24 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

I guess from your post that you think that one type of data storage is clearly better than the other, SQ vice. I must admit that it’s hard to know exactly with the double negative 😉. No matter what you meant to say no type of digital storage is by design so much better that it outperform all the other ones in all kind of use.

 

As with everything else one design may be better in one way and another in a different way. Without going in to details many SSD and M2 with big catch buffer can be quite fast, but also generate HF noise. HDD is much slower, needs more power and create a lot of vibration. Vibrations can have a negative effect on clocks and other components normally used together with HDD.  

 

The best storage solution is not always the same and depends on what is going to be stored on the disc, how fast does it have to operate, will the vibrations have a greater negative impact than the HF noise and can the HF noise be reduced by ferrites or SDD filters?

 

I did “test” some different disc solution a few years ago and thought that the slower green HDD worked best for storage music and a small separate SSD for OS was best.

                                                           

Innuos use a combination of SSD and RAM Cache. The chosen track is transferred from SSD to RAM, then the SSD is shut down and the music streamed from the RAM cache.   

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43 minutes ago, Summit said:

I guess from your post that you think that one type of data storage is clearly better than the other, SQ vice.

I can get higher quality SQ from SSD than HDD due to the precautions I take. In this case the SSDs are also powered via very low noise +5V supplies which are not only also isolated from each other , but have far less interaction with the main +12V rail due to the voltage regulators. It's much harder to provide low noise power for an HDD due to the need to provide both +12V and +5V low noise PSUs for it.

 In my PC  one half of the PCB powers my OS SSD, and the other half powers an internal Music SSD with both powered from the +12V rail. To connect it, I use a 4 pin Molex to dual SATA power plug cable cut in half.

In addition, JRiver25  is set up to play from System Memory, which can easily be seen when playing from a USB memory stick where you can unplug it and the music continues.

Dual +5V PSU for 2 SSDs.jpg


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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17 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Innuos use a combination of SSD and RAM Cache. The chosen track is transferred from SSD to RAM, then the SSD is shut down and the music streamed from the RAM cache.   

 

Jriver and many other music players are transferring music data from SSD to RAM and have done it long before Innuos, so what’s you point?

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20 minutes ago, sandyk said:

I can get higher quality SQ from SSD than HDD due to the precautions I take. In this case the SSDs are also powered via very low noise +5V supplies which are not only also isolated from each other , but have far less interaction with the main +12V rail due to the voltage regulators. It's much harder to provide low noise power for an HDD due to the need to provide both +12V and +5V low noise PSUs for it.

 In my PC  one half of the PCB powers my OS SSD, and the other half powers an internal Music SSD with both powered from the +12V rail.

In addition, JRiver25  is set up to play from System Memory, which can easily be seen when playing from a USB memory stick where you can unplug it and the music continues.

Dual +5V PSU for 2 SSDs.jpg

 

Good for you Alex that you have it all figured out. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Summit said:

Jriver and many other music players are transferring music data from SSD to RAM and have done it long before Innuos, so what’s you point?

The way computer systems are designed, it is impossible to access a single bit of data from a storage device without placing it in RAM first. When an application requests data from a file, the OS works out where on the storage device this file resides. Then it sends a request to the storage controller with an instruction to read the relevant block and place it at a specified location in RAM. When the transfer is complete, the controller raises an interrupt, and the OS lets the application continue.

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10 minutes ago, mansr said:

The way computer systems are designed, it is impossible to access a single bit of data from a storage device without placing it in RAM first. When an application requests data from a file, the OS works out where on the storage device this file resides. Then it sends a request to the storage controller with an instruction to read the relevant block and place it at a specified location in RAM. When the transfer is complete, the controller raises an interrupt, and the OS lets the application continue.

 

Jriver and many other music players can transfer complete tracks of music data from SSD to RAM and some think its sounds better that way, other that it doesn’t matter. Did you not understand what was meant by the context and the post I reply to?

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3 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Jriver and many other music players are transferring music data from SSD to RAM and have done it long before Innuos, so what’s you point?

My point is that Innuos transfer the music data from SSD to RAM, so your music quality isn’t impacted by SSD noise if the SSD is switched off while the music file is streaming

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30 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

My point is that Innuos transfer the music data from SSD to RAM, so your music quality isn’t impacted by SSD noise if the SSD is switched off while the music file is streaming

 

Maybe but is not the same true if the music is stored on a HDD and how about the OS on the SSD isn’t it on all the time?

 

My HDD turns off when not in use.

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2 hours ago, Summit said:

 

Maybe but is not the same true if the music is stored on a HDD and how about the OS on the SSD isn’t it on all the time?

 

My HDD turns off when not in use.

According to Innuos “the Zenith loads music directly to memory for playback so that it does not need to engage the SSD during playback, improving sound quality”  Given that Innuos is also responsible for the OS (InnuOS) the SSD operation is completely under their control. . 

A HDD is too slow to be used in the same manner due to the delay in spinning up to operating speed.   

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For me, playing games with how the digital side operates is not best method to optimise SQ - yes, I'm doing this now with my laptop 😀, but it's a 'closed box'; and I'm happy to use shortcuts to "prove a point".

 

Far better, is to make the analogue areas as close to 100% robust as possible in their own right - no matter what happens in the world outside their realm, the SQ never alters. This means that one can happily substitute the digital components as needs change, things wear out, and technology advances - without going through a whole rigmarole, to optimise the sound all over again, with each new arrangement.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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10 hours ago, fas42 said:

For me, playing games with how the digital side operates is not best method to optimise SQ - yes, I'm doing this now with my laptop 😀, but it's a 'closed box'; and I'm happy to use shortcuts to "prove a point".

 

Far better, is to make the analogue areas as close to 100% robust as possible in their own right - no matter what happens in the world outside their realm, the SQ never alters. This means that one can happily substitute the digital components as needs change, things wear out, and technology advances - without going through a whole rigmarole, to optimise the sound all over again, with each new arrangement.

This is where we do disagree. When you achieve audio Nirvana, that’s not the end of the road. The instruments sound lifelike and stand 3 dimensionally in space, but there’s still a whole lot of improvements possible and the music can become yet more lifelike, real and enjoyable.  The improvements have to do with greater detail, more profound silences, deeper saturation, better timing, lower level timbral detail, greater focus etc etc. 

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17 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

This is where we do disagree. When you achieve audio Nirvana, that’s not the end of the road. The instruments sound lifelike and stand 3 dimensionally in space, but there’s still a whole lot of improvements possible and the music can become yet more lifelike, real and enjoyable.  The improvements have to do with greater detail, more profound silences, deeper saturation, better timing, lower level timbral detail, greater focus etc etc. 

 

I don't think we disagree - audio Nirvana can only be as good as the recording provides, but I have heard enough instances over the years, when a rig has been in an especially good place, to know there are almost no limits.

 

I particularly focus on doing what is necessary to rescue "terrible!!" recordings - there's a certain satisfaction in being able to hear what almost no-one else has ever heard; a capture of a musical event which still conveys the spirit and energy of that moment, in spite of all its 'handicaps', 😉.

 

 


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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Found it here.

 

Imagen_4.png

Legend: A received digital signal may be impaired by noise and distortions without necessarily affecting the digits.

 

With a bit rate of 5,644,800 bits per second per channel for DSD128 (I hope I didn't get this wrong) what's the chance of noise interference flipping a few bits over USB (I'm assuming perhaps wrongly that USB doesn't check for the accuracy of the transmission)?

What would a flipped bit sound like?

 

Would the extra effort required to process a noisy signal affect D/A conversion?

Would the extra effort required to process a noisy signal affect the analogue ouput noise-floor or something else?

Can this be measured by say checking the amount of energy required for processing (f that makes sense at all)?

 

Again, I'm merely a curious layman (a nice word for ignorant), be gentle.


"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

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4 hours ago, semente said:

With a bit rate of 5,644,800 bits per second per channel for DSD128 (I hope I didn't get this wrong) what's the chance of noise interference flipping a few bits over USB (I'm assuming perhaps wrongly that USB doesn't check for the accuracy of the transmission)?

The USB 2.0 bit rate is always 480 Mbps. Since the data rate of audio is lower, the interface is idle most of the time. As for chance of bit flips, the USB 2.0 spec recommends that implementations achieve an error rate of 1 in 1e12 bits or better.

 

4 hours ago, semente said:

What would a flipped bit sound like?

A single bit flip in DSD isn't very noticeable. In PCM, it depends on which bit. With 24-bit samples, any of the lower 8 or so bits can be flipped without anyone noticing. Flipping the higher bits will produce a tick, louder the higher in the value of the bit.

 

5 hours ago, semente said:

Would the extra effort required to process a noisy signal affect D/A conversion?

What type of interface are we talking about here? The idea that a noisy signal takes more "effort" to decode is very often simply wrong.

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20 hours ago, semente said:

Found it here.

 

Imagen_4.png

Legend: A received digital signal may be impaired by noise and distortions without necessarily affecting the digits.

 

With a bit rate of 5,644,800 bits per second per channel for DSD128 (I hope I didn't get this wrong) what's the chance of noise interference flipping a few bits over USB (I'm assuming perhaps wrongly that USB doesn't check for the accuracy of the transmission)?

What would a flipped bit sound like?

 

Would the extra effort required to process a noisy signal affect D/A conversion?

Would the extra effort required to process a noisy signal affect the analogue ouput noise-floor or something else?

Can this be measured by say checking the amount of energy required for processing (f that makes sense at all)?

 

Again, I'm merely a curious layman (a nice word for ignorant), be gentle.

This is what the field of signal integrity is about... The Wikki page is very basic.

I'll try and find some basic stuff.

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Try this...

http://www.ee.cityu.edu.hk/~emc/20130530P1.pdf

 

Its a huge subject and does involve power integrity as well (you can't have good signalling without the correct power delivery system, not talking LPS at the front end here). The trouble is finding something really basic as everything is geared towards EE's and presumes some basic understanding. I am trying to find an introduction pdf from a course on all this I attended in Germany several years ago which is very good, I can find everything but at the moment. Will keep digging though.

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It always ends up coming down to this moronic crap, which is a pity because it could be a worthwhile discussion answering the question:  How come hi-fis keep getting better in the ears of thousands of enthusiasts while the engineers are unable to measure any significant differences? Mass-hypnosis, self-delusion, confirmation-bias or is there something else in play? Measurements with calibrated instruments are pretty affirmative, but many thousands of audiophiles can clearly hear the difference and more concrete, have the systems to prove it.....so its not like they can’t demonstrate what they’re saying.  So who’s right? The engineers with their scopes, dvms and educations or the audiophiles, who actually pay for, consume, build and refine the systems and listen to the stuff? Audiophiles can only raise their hands to say that something is afoot. Its the engineers who have to look into it. But if they’re constantly in denial, we are not going anywhere.  Pity!

Personally I think the answers lie with people like John Swenson, who listens when something is afoot that he can’t measure, and goes about constructing a specialised work bench to help log, track, trace and evaluate apparent contradictions in the evidence. That’s the only way this gets resolved. With an engineering solution. 

John and his ilk are the people moving both the state of the art and the state of the engineering forward.  That’s what we need....not denial, silly accusations and name callling, which frankly belong in the schoolyard. 

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2 hours ago, semente said:

 

What would you measure and what would you expect to find if noise were to affect the D/A conversion?

I don't think that it would be possible to compare the input with the output, would it? Could you meaningfully compare conversion (analogue output) of a clean vs a dirty signal, not static test tones but live streaming music or at least something more complex and varied?

 

 

That's the million dollar question - no-one has a decent grasp of how to measure analogue audio signals, to be able to say definitively that noise is, or isn't, an issue. If it were otherwise, all the continuing nonsense in audio la-la land would have died down ages ago - as it is, one's ears are currently the best measure.

 

Unfortunately, achieving what I call competent sound requires noise to be got almost completely under control - the disturbing aspect of remaining anomalies can't be discarded by the listening brain; the only solution I'm aware of is to persist with eliminating all possible causes - convincing sound then emerges when enough has been done, completely automatically.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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2 hours ago, mansr said:

Yes, someone like marce.

OK. Which pieces of top class audio gear has marce developed? Before I listen to someone’s opinion that is contrary to what I’ve pieced together and learned over the years, I’d like to know that their opinion is based on solid learning and experience.  As a minimum I’d expect them to able to explain in detail how EMI and RFI impacts the signals that move around within digital systems and impact the output of CDPs 

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2 hours ago, marce said:

Well I was responsible for the PCB's etc. for this AN VIC-5...😁 

Worked on quite a bit of pro audio stuff over the years, a bit of commercial a lot of communications... And a wide variety of other stuff far more sensitive than domestic audio... and whatever you believe the lessons learned from other analogue/digital/rf/microwave designs are applicable to domestic audio. That why I think a lot of the presumed issues in domestic audio are forwarded to sell kit, cynical yes, because most if not all the issues are solvable.

But unless anything I say supports the general beliefs, it will be dismissed, or pulled up for appealing to authority etc. Of course if you want you could hire me, I'll give you my firms number and you can have me for 60-80 Euros an hour plus expenses...😉

 

Hi marce, with the greatest respect i think this is exactly the problem....extrapolating experiences in electronics and digital electronics in particular with high-end audio. In high-end audio the benchmark applied is sound quality....not something that easily correlates with the raft of measurements we currently make in electronics. Indeed some of the errr let’s say marginal measuring amplifiers are tube designs  revered by audiophiles the World over.  This discussion has been going on for years without resolution. Some of the current top designers in the digital world are finding that software, CPU processing loads, memory caches, disc drives, multiple processors and a host of other recently discovered phenomena impact sound quality, sometimes quite markedly. Who would have thought that vibration control of network components transmitting a data stream would influence the final sound quality but it does. The bit stream is unaltered but the final music is simply a lot more enjoyable to listen to and that’s the bottom line. Design something that’s bit perfect with filters up its wazoo but if it sounds bad, why bother?. The end result isn’t about measurements, its about musical quality and its enjoyment. Until we find ways to correlate that with measurements we’re going to continue with these discussions. If an electronics designer tells me certain things don’t matter and in the end I listen to his design and it sounds [email protected], then for me he’s no expert in high-end design, he’s just as electronics geek and there’s loads of those around. High end is a specialist area and it requires true specialists to develop great designs 

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