Jump to content
  • 2
IGNORED

Mains conditioner for SMPSs?


semente

Question

I've got two extension leads/strip coming out of the wall socket, one for 3 SMPSs (laptop + router + NAS), the other for LSPU (Network Audio Adapter) + DAC + integrated amplifier.

Would it be worth spending on a mains conditioner lead/strip for the SMPSs?

Thanks.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment

Recommended Posts

  • 0
On 11/14/2019 at 9:15 PM, Speedskater said:

Why would you think that the skill set is any different?

But top class audio gear isn't about engineering skill, it's about marketing.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that’s just rubbish.  Did you know that there are 4 levels of knowledge....

  1. Unconscious ignorance...where you don’t know what you don’t know
  2. Conscious ignorance....where you know what you don’t know
  3. Conscious knowledge....where you know but need conscious effort to recall
  4. Unconscious knowledge....where you know it so well it is automatic and requires no effort

With a great deal of certainty I can say that the above statement falls into category 1. 

Link to comment
  • 0

For me at least, hi-fi seems like a continuum that when expressed as Sound Quality goes from quite ugly to very beautiful. Quite ugly would be both rather boring and sometimes uncomfortable to listen to for tonal, resonance, haze and lack of resolution reasons.  Many poorly installed systems can sound like this.  Then we move along the continuum the components get better and set-up is improved, so everything is now ok in terms of playing music. Better yet components and some made-to-measure set-up detailing like racks, platforms, power cables etc.now make an appearance and sound quality takes a corresponding leap. Now move up a class; here you find carefully installed dedicated mains and maybe some mains treatment.....certainly power cables and probably some really good amps and speakers to match. And the sound quality? Pretty great usually, if the right work has been done on the installation; things like vibration, local noise sources, careful siting, some room treatments etc then sound quality can reach very believable and extremely high levels. 

Finally you get the real Triers; guys with well refined gear and a great set-up who go to work on the rest of the ancillaries to ensure for example a really clean, noise free (as much as possible), very close to jitter free, cable and power supply optimised network.  Some lucky ones even get to build and enjoy their own customised listening rooms. How does it sound? Pretty stunning in a lot of cases, the sound actually surprising in both its beauty, complexity and room-filling capacity and how much different and better it sounds in all regards...Its simply more beautiful in all regards and therefore more enjoyable.  If you’ve never heard that, and most people haven’t then you’ve no idea about the pinnacle that stereo really well done can reach. From an enjoyment standpoint its getting close to perfect for simply getting out of the way and leaving a room full of pure beautiful music for us to hear.

Link to comment
  • 0
3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

For me at least, hi-fi seems like a continuum that when expressed as Sound Quality goes from quite ugly to very beautiful. Quite ugly would be both rather boring and sometimes uncomfortable to listen to for tonal, resonance, haze and lack of resolution reasons.  Many poorly installed systems can sound like this.  Then we move along the continuum the components get better and set-up is improved, so everything is now ok in terms of playing music. Better yet components and some made-to-measure set-up detailing like racks, platforms, power cables etc.now make an appearance and sound quality takes a corresponding leap. Now move up a class; here you find carefully installed dedicated mains and maybe some mains treatment.....certainly power cables and probably some really good amps and speakers to match. And the sound quality? Pretty great usually, if the right work has been done on the installation; things like vibration, local noise sources, careful siting, some room treatments etc then sound quality can reach very believable and extremely high levels. 

 

Indeed it's a continuum ... as mentioned elsewhere, one can 'train' oneself to become consciously aware of attributes in the sound that mark, say, MP3 from uncompressed - one deliberately uses clips that elicit misbehaviour in the perceived sound, to quickly nail, identify problem areas. Many of those who rely on measurements would have close to zero ability to articulate what they don't like in some playback chain - "it just just doesn't good" or variations on that is about as good as it gets ... the absence of "magic" when listening occurs because there is a presence of the 'wrong' type of distortion - but one has to be able to point one's finger precisely on what is faulty in the sound, to then be able to work on that.

 

3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Finally you get the real Triers; guys with well refined gear and a great set-up who go to work on the rest of the ancillaries to ensure for example a really clean, noise free (as much as possible), very close to jitter free, cable and power supply optimised network.  Some lucky ones even get to build and enjoy their own customised listening rooms. How does it sound? Pretty stunning in a lot of cases, the sound actually surprising in both its beauty, complexity and room-filling capacity and how much different and better it sounds in all regards...Its simply more beautiful in all regards and therefore more enjoyable.  If you’ve never heard that, and most people haven’t then you’ve no idea about the pinnacle that stereo really well done can reach. From an enjoyment standpoint its getting close to perfect for simply getting out of the way and leaving a room full of pure beautiful music for us to hear.

 

Precisely.

Link to comment
  • 0
On 11/16/2019 at 9:36 AM, Blackmorec said:

Yes you can hear the differences, quite clearly actually. It often changes the nature of the music  so its more than likely you’re simply measuring the wrong things 

 

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? Do you know what makes it very, very special? 2 things

1. She seems to be smiling at you personally

2. There’s human warmth in the smile

So how would you go about measuring that?

 

Today we can measure practically anything and everything about that painting.....colour spectrum, paint depth, exact age, moisture content, degree of contamination, nature of contaminants...,etc. But the skill of the painter and the nature and quality of his painting? Nope 

 

 

Silly analogy.... A music replay system is an engineered system, the music is the art... Sorry your way off.

Link to comment
  • 0
On 11/16/2019 at 9:55 AM, Blackmorec said:

By you’re I mean anyone that tells me the differences I hear and literally tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of others can hear are inaudible. Its not a belief I have, its simply a logical and very simple conclusion.  The differences you measure may be -140dB, which simply means that what you are measuring is not causing the differences i hear. Your measurements indicate that I can’t hear a difference. Yet I can. So what’s your conclusion....that I’m imagining the differences. Me and thousands of others....all imagining and describing the exact same thing. But there is a perfectly logical alternative explanation. The -140dB differences you are measuring are not responsible for the differences I’m hearing. It really doesn’t get much more straightforward and logical than that. 

Yep bias expectation....

Again you use youre, probably passively aggressively because of my previous post. Thanks for the giggle. 

Link to comment
  • 0
On 11/16/2019 at 9:55 AM, Blackmorec said:

By you’re I mean anyone that tells me the differences I hear and literally tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of others can hear are inaudible. Its not a belief I have, its simply a logical and very simple conclusion.  The differences you measure may be -140dB, which simply means that what you are measuring is not causing the differences i hear. Your measurements indicate that I can’t hear a difference. Yet I can. So what’s your conclusion....that I’m imagining the differences. Me and thousands of others....all imagining and describing the exact same thing. But there is a perfectly logical alternative explanation. The -140dB differences you are measuring are not responsible for the differences I’m hearing. It really doesn’t get much more straightforward and logical than that. 

On reflection, I realise you don't have a good understanding on 
how audio repreduction equipement is designed... Its not "youre" measurmenets they are "our" 
measurements... Measurments are a fundemantal part of the design and 
development cycle, to dismiss them arbitrary is nonsensical...  

Link to comment
  • 0
15 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

It always ends up coming down to this moronic crap, which is a pity because it could be a worthwhile discussion answering the question:  How come hi-fis keep getting better in the ears of thousands of enthusiasts while the engineers are unable to measure any significant differences? Mass-hypnosis, self-delusion, confirmation-bias or is there something else in play? Measurements with calibrated instruments are pretty affirmative, but many thousands of audiophiles can clearly hear the difference and more concrete, have the systems to prove it.....so its not like they can’t demonstrate what they’re saying.  So who’s right? The engineers with their scopes, dvms and educations or the audiophiles, who actually pay for, consume, build and refine the systems and listen to the stuff? Audiophiles can only raise their hands to say that something is afoot. Its the engineers who have to look into it. But if they’re constantly in denial, we are not going anywhere.  Pity!

Personally I think the answers lie with people like John Swenson, who listens when something is afoot that he can’t measure, and goes about constructing a specialised work bench to help log, track, trace and evaluate apparent contradictions in the evidence. That’s the only way this gets resolved. With an engineering solution. 

John and his ilk are the people moving both the state of the art and the state of the engineering forward.  That’s what we need....not denial, silly accusations and name callling, which frankly belong in the schoolyard. 

LOL.

Evidence is only evidence if it supports your beliefs.

Name calling, read your own posts mate.

You repeat the same thing endlessly, you need to get out of the rut.

Link to comment
  • 0

Does everyone agree that every commercial equipment is built to a price point, its performance in preactice is limited by the knowledge/ experience/expertise of the designers, and can be improved?

 

I like car analogies.

 

What about measurements, are we measuring everything that makes a difference? Wasn't that what people believed in before the Matti Otala/IMD?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
  • 0
48 minutes ago, semente said:

Does everyone agree that every commercial equipment is built to a price point,

Everything is built with some budget in mind, be it that of a plumber, a lawyer, or the DoD.

 

48 minutes ago, semente said:

its performance in practice is limited by the knowledge/ experience/expertise of the designers,

Also physical reality.

 

48 minutes ago, semente said:

and can be improved?

Depends on the nature of the device, which aspect you'd like to improve, and how much you're willing to spend. For some items, even a modest investment gets you close to what is physically possible (cables come to mind).

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, mansr said:

Everything is built with some budget in mind, be it that of a plumber, a lawyer, or the DoD.

 

So you agree.

 

3 hours ago, semente said:

its performance in preactice is limited by the knowledge/ experience/expertise of the designers,

 

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Also physical reality.

 

Physical reality remains a constant but not our ability to measure/diagnose. Medicine diagnose equipment is a good example (i.e. MRI).

 

3 hours ago, semente said:

and can be improved

 

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Depends on the nature of the device, which aspect you'd like to improve, and how much you're willing to spend. For some items, even a modest investment gets you close to what is physically possible (cables come to mind).

 

So you agree that commercial hi-fi electronic equipment and speakers can be improved.

I agree with you about the cables by the way.

 

 

A friend of mine has modified/improved several different phono preamps, CD players, DACs and amplifiers (grounding, power supply, simpler or sometimes slightly different/improved circuit, higher spec electronic components, etc.).

In some cases the improvements were significant, others quite mild.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
  • 0
27 minutes ago, semente said:

So you agree.

Not in the way you think.

 

27 minutes ago, semente said:

So you agree that commercial hi-fi electronic equipment and speakers can be improved.

I said it depends on what you want to improve. Take the Voyager probes, for example. They are still working after spending 40 years in space with no maintenance. Would any hi-fi equipment (commercially available or not) fare as well? Unlikely. A few hundred million dollars (the cost of the Voyager programme) might buy you that improvement. On the flip side, if reducing cost by, say, 90% only requires giving up a marginal amount of performance, that too could be considered an improvement. Saying that "everything can be improved" is meaningless without some context.

Link to comment
  • 0
1 hour ago, semente said:

 

Physical reality remains a constant but not our ability to measure/diagnose. Medicine diagnose equipment is a good example (i.e. MRI).

 

We are talking electronics not the human body, the analogy does not transfer, we design and build the MRI scanners... MRI scanners are not diagnostic equipment, they take pretty pictures that doctors examine and produce a diagnostic based on their experience. And like MRI scanners, domestic audio can be tested and measured to do its designated job.

 

Link to comment
  • 0
52 minutes ago, mansr said:

Not in the way you think.

 

Have you been reading my mind behind my back?

 

53 minutes ago, mansr said:

I said it depends on what you want to improve. Take the Voyager probes, for example. They are still working after spending 40 years in space with no maintenance. Would any hi-fi equipment (commercially available or not) fare as well? Unlikely. A few hundred million dollars (the cost of the Voyager programme) might buy you that improvement. On the flip side, if reducing cost by, say, 90% only requires giving up a marginal amount of performance, that too could be considered an improvement. Saying that "everything can be improved" is meaningless without some context.

 

What's your point regarding The Voyager?

 

I agree about the vagueness but how particular should that context be?

DACs in general or a particular model like the Topping D10?

How much is marginal?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
  • 0
15 minutes ago, marce said:

We are talking electronics not the human body, the analogy does not transfer, we design and build the MRI scanners... MRI scanners are not diagnostic equipment, they take pretty pictures that doctors examine and produce a diagnostic based on their experience. And like MRI scanners, domestic audio can be tested and measured to do its designated job.

 

 

Medical doctors and scientists use tools to diagnose. Those tools, such as the MRI scanner have evolved. More evolved or powerful tools enable them to delve deeper into the physics and the chemistry of the human body.

 

Perhaps analogue scopes were good enough in their day but have now been surpassed by more evolved or powerful tools?

 

What about the point that I was trying to make by mentioning Otala and IMD? Or Kantor's simulated load circuit?

Isn't it possible to use existing equipment and knowledge creatively to create new measurements, like one that would provide more insight to how packet noise or other may affect digital trasmission of the data stream from the processing software to the DAC?

If I got the IMD story correct, people were complaining about audible problems and some engineers were shouting "you're hallucinating".

 

I'm just a layman asking questions.

 

 

 

P.S.: There was a time when doctors dipped their little finger into the patient's urine to taste it. Not too different from a trained listener assessing playback performance.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
  • 0
6 hours ago, semente said:

Does everyone agree that every commercial equipment is built to a price point, its performance in preactice is limited by the knowledge/ experience/expertise of the designers, and can be improved?

No!

The skill of a good engineer is building to a price point.

What do you have against design engineers, with such an insulating statement?

Link to comment
  • 0
16 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

No!

The skill of a good engineer is building to a price point.

What do you have against design engineers, with such an insulating statement?

 

Nothing.

Same with taxi drivers. Yet no one will contest that some are better drivers than others, some know their way around beeter than others, some are more cordial than others, et cetera.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

Link to comment
  • 0
9 hours ago, semente said:

 

 

Isn't it possible to use existing equipment and knowledge creatively to create new measurements, like one that would provide more insight to how packet noise or other may affect digital trasmission of the data stream from the processing software to the DAC?

If I got the IMD story correct, people were complaining about audible problems and some engineers were shouting "you're hallucinating".

 

 

 

Unless the measurements assess the output of a full system this will be doomed to failure - it's the weaknesses of the engineering of how the components of an audio system, including the cables, react to the presence of each other, and the environment that need to be understood better.

 

If the Voyager probe had to meet up and interact with another piece of hardware, in space, designed and built by another mob of people, who had no contact with the Voyager team apart from a very bare set of publicly available specs - what do you think the chances would be for everything to go 100% swimmingly well? 😉

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...