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Mains conditioner for SMPSs?


semente

Question

I've got two extension leads/strip coming out of the wall socket, one for 3 SMPSs (laptop + router + NAS), the other for LSPU (Network Audio Adapter) + DAC + integrated amplifier.

Would it be worth spending on a mains conditioner lead/strip for the SMPSs?

Thanks.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Digital noise won't affect the analog output s/n ratio. What it will affect is the data integrity. So lost data bits can cause the error correction system to work overtime.

 

It has nothing to do with lost Data Bits. It's a masking of low level detail such as low level harmonics, like there is a veil present.

It can even give the appearance of added HF detail in some cases.

 To quote Barry Diament  "as though some random treble energy surrounded the details in the recordings."

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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@semente try adding an iFi AC iPurifier (100 usd) on an empty receptacle, it will neutralize high frequency noise on the mains.

https://ifi-audio.com/products/ac-ipurifier/

 

https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/AC-iPurifier-Tech-Note-FINAL.pdf

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6 hours ago, Speedskater said:

What kind of noise and where in the circuit is this noise?

I am far from the only member that will tell you this about " digital veils"

 You and the other sceptics like Mansr and Marce  have qualifications in this area. Perhaps you should put some of your undoubted expertise in these areas to good use and investigate what numerous people report hearing with less than well optimised digital audio ?

If you don't wish to believe what myself, Blacmorec and many others are saying, then ask the vast majority of the participants in Rajiv's thread in Music Servers.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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3 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

OK, so tell me about it. What is veiling what?

 

You guys refuse to accept anything that this old fart reports, so I suggest that you ask the same question in that other massive thread. BTW, the quote that I mentioned was from Barry after comparing a couple of comparison CD-Rs that I sent him AFTER he ripped them to his HDD for seamless switching between versions using his Studio gear. It was about the version ripped using a cheap external USB powered DVD writer where his wife also reported hearing the same under NON sighted conditions.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Alex, some people want to live in the world where audio is merely a set of Black Boxes, which work "perfectly" in their designated spaces - and you just have to plug 'em together like Lego bricks. Nice try ... but no cigar, 😉. The unfortunate reality is that there is always enough interference leakage to impact perceived SQ - which means doing a lot of juggling to reach an acceptable solution; and that is why there is the current madness of umpteen solutions in every area of the audiophile world.

 

"Fire all the incompetent engineers!!", they cry out - trouble is, even the "best" brands aren't sufficiently sorted - Benchmark is one of those held up as a "good example"; yet it's easy to pick that their products still have weaknesses, when you read people's experiences with them.

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EMI and RFI is wide bandwidth analog noise that is both conducted and radiated . It enters CDPs via ground, power, interconnect and data stream cables or is absorbed by vulnerable circuits and components, where it interacts with the analog voltages of digital data and clock signals, resulting in either the right signal at the wrong time or wrong signal at the right time. In the time domain this is called jitter, which translates in frequency domain to phase noise, the results of which are documented above...a negative effect on sound quality. 

Again, this my layman’s understanding. For a more thorough explanation you’d need to talk to a specialist who understands both digital and analog domains.

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For example in the listening room I have two mains filters. One for SMPS powered devices and another one for LPS powered devices.

 

SMPS are not biggest source of problems, rather electric motors and such tend to be worse. Like fridge compressors, air conditioning, washing machines, etc... Although I'm not sure now since in house hold biggest SMPS is one used to charge plugin-hybrid car; that's pretty powerful one.

 

So much easier is to protect audio equipment from random sources of noise. For computer gear I anyway have line-interactive UPS (one that produces low distortion sine wave when on batteries) with noise filtering.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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2 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

OK. Which pieces of top class audio gear has marce developed? Before I listen to someone’s opinion that is contrary to what I’ve pieced together and learned over the years, I’d like to know that their opinion is based on solid learning and experience.  As a minimum I’d expect them to able to explain in detail how EMI and RFI impacts the signals that move around within digital systems and impact the output of CDPs 

Well I was responsible for the PCB's etc. for this AN VIC-5...😁 

Worked on quite a bit of pro audio stuff over the years, a bit of commercial a lot of communications... And a wide variety of other stuff far more sensitive than domestic audio... and whatever you believe the lessons learned from other analogue/digital/rf/microwave designs are applicable to domestic audio. That why I think a lot of the presumed issues in domestic audio are forwarded to sell kit, cynical yes, because most if not all the issues are solvable.

But unless anything I say supports the general beliefs, it will be dismissed, or pulled up for appealing to authority etc. Of course if you want you could hire me, I'll give you my firms number and you can have me for 60-80 Euros an hour plus expenses...😉

 

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20 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Part of the skill set is to be able to listen to equipment as part of a working system, and have no trouble hearing it misbehaving - call it a form of Quality Assurance if you like, 😉. Unfortunately, there is now a ritualistic downplaying of the human ability to perceive 'wrongness' in what they listen to - because, well, it makes life easier for the geeks ... "Show us the measurements !!!"

 

 +1

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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12 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi marce, with the greatest respect i think this is exactly the problem....extrapolating experiences in electronics and digital electronics in particular with high-end audio. In high-end audio the benchmark applied is sound quality....not something that easily correlates with the raft of measurements we currently make in electronics. Indeed some of the errr let’s say marginal measuring amplifiers are tube designs  revered by audiophiles the World over.  This discussion has been going on for years without resolution. Some of the current top designers in the digital world are finding that software, CPU processing loads, memory caches, disc drives, multiple processors and a host of other recently discovered phenomena impact sound quality, sometimes quite markedly. Who would have thought that vibration control of network components transmitting a data stream would influence the final sound quality but it does. The bit stream is unaltered but the final music is simply a lot more enjoyable to listen to and that’s the bottom line. Design something that’s bit perfect with filters up its wazoo but if it sounds bad, why bother?. The end result isn’t about measurements, its about musical quality and its enjoyment. Until we find ways to correlate that with measurements we’re going to continue with these discussions. If an electronics designer tells me certain things don’t matter and in the end I listen to his design and it sounds cr@p, then for me he’s no expert in high-end design, he’s just as electronics geek and there’s loads of those around. High end is a specialist area and it requires true specialists to develop great designs 

Nope, your wrong, its all electronics, with some transducers...

As said there is no point me saying anything regarding the subject because there are numerous things you mention that are not going to have a audible effect on the sound and in some cases probably wont even be measurable...

Your final words say it, if someones experience and expertise does not agree with your world view then he is a crap  designer, an electronic geek... So unless anything I say or reference supports your beliefs it will be dismissed. I recently put up 3 AES presentations on shielding, dissed! one even highlighted as being insulting to audiophile. I questioned the use of Teflon PCB's in DC power supplies as both un-necessary and likely to cause more problems than they would ever solve and got the same response as I got of you; the "what does he know". Even a comment regarding decoupling capacitors got dismissed out of hand... So at the moment I have a cynical attitude to posting anything technical, because instead of leading to sensible discussion it attracts numerous posts (many from some who only seem to crop for these posts) the content being the verbal equivalent of Enoch's hammer.

Sorry but domestic audio is not the forefront of electronics. The DAC side and filters is covered in great detail by the likes of Miska, Mansr etc. We do seem to ignore the big problems such as transducers and the room interface.

Have fun. Just remember perception is not always the most reliable tool...

😁

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3 hours ago, marce said:

Nope, your wrong, its all electronics, with some transducers...

As said there is no point me saying anything regarding the subject because there are numerous things you mention that are not going to have a audible effect on the sound and in some cases probably wont even be measurable...

Your final words say it, if someones experience and expertise does not agree with your world view then he is a crap  designer, an electronic geek... So unless anything I say or reference supports your beliefs it will be dismissed. I recently put up 3 AES presentations on shielding, dissed! one even highlighted as being insulting to audiophile. I questioned the use of Teflon PCB's in DC power supplies as both un-necessary and likely to cause more problems than they would ever solve and got the same response as I got of you; the "what does he know". Even a comment regarding decoupling capacitors got dismissed out of hand... So at the moment I have a cynical attitude to posting anything technical, because instead of leading to sensible discussion it attracts numerous posts (many from some who only seem to crop for these posts) the content being the verbal equivalent of Enoch's hammer.

Sorry but domestic audio is not the forefront of electronics. The DAC side and filters is covered in great detail by the likes of Miska, Mansr etc. We do seem to ignore the big problems such as transducers and the room interface.

Have fun. Just remember perception is not always the most reliable tool...

😁

I have no doubt whatsoever that a lot of what I hear is currently not measurable, or it may be measurable but we don’t understand how what we measure and what we hear correlate. When you say that certain things I can clearly hear don’t have an audible effect, this is where we disagree, because the more I reduce the noise on my system, the greater the effects of further noise reductions and the greater the negative impact of introducing noise sources.  But take a system that’s far from optimised and you won’t hear the differences I’m talking about. ...the classic self fulfilling prophecy. 

 

Your quote of my final words edited what I said. Its not my view of the world that’s the problem,  its what I hear that’s the final arbiter. If a designer tells me his design is perfect, yet it sounds cr@p, then by definition, it isn’t perfect. It may measure perfectly but if it doesn’t deliver great sound quality, it’s missed the goal. Designing for perfect measurements is not what the high-end is about....because perfect measurements don’t always deliver perfect sound and there are impediments to perfect sound that don’t correlate to measurements, yet can be avoided by top designers, who do achieve top class sound quality. 

Nobody says that domestic audio is at the forefront of electronics, similarly nobody is saying that the forefront of electronics delivers perfect sound.  Perception may not be the most reliable tool but in terms of high-end audio its the ultimate tool, because if perception isn’t right, the rest simply doesn’t matter. 

 

 

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 2:00 PM, Matias said:

@semente try adding an iFi AC iPurifier (100 usd) on an empty receptacle, it will neutralize high frequency noise on the mains.

https://ifi-audio.com/products/ac-ipurifier/

 

https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/AC-iPurifier-Tech-Note-FINAL.pdf

Active noise cancellation, a subject I have mentioned before and worth more discussion. My only Caveat with the If device and others is they really need to be in line with the supply: supply-filter-load a series connection, parallel connections can allow noise to bypass the filter, same with the MOVs for transient protection. Any signal given a choice of paths, it will probably take a bit of both!

The devices I've had most contact with are from Vicor/Picor,

https://www.vitecpower.com/en/applications/mil-cots/

Mainly lower voltages and mainly on things that cant be plugged in, in fact zero ground connection. The highest main supply being 115V.

 

An interesting note on noise.

https://product.tdk.com/en/products/emc/emc/power-line/technote/pdf/generaltec_power-line_en.pdf

 

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18 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I have no doubt whatsoever that a lot of what I hear is currently not measurable, or it may be measurable but we don’t understand how what we measure and what we hear correlate. When you say that certain things I can clearly hear don’t have an audible effect, this is where we disagree, because the more I reduce the noise on my system, the greater the effects of further noise reductions and the greater the negative impact of introducing noise sources.  But take a system that’s far from optimised and you won’t hear the differences I’m talking about. ...the classic self fulfilling prophecy. 

 

 

 

 

Can you hear better than -140dB into the mix...

...

Its like the old adage "analogue cables don't make a difference"... They do, but those differences can be measured, but are not audible, because now we can measure down to silly levels...  

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12 minutes ago, marce said:

Can you hear better than -140dB into the mix...

...

Its like the old adage "analogue cables don't make a difference"... They do, but those differences can be measured, but are not audible, because now we can measure down to silly levels...  

Yes you can hear the differences, quite clearly actually. It often changes the nature of the music  so its more than likely you’re simply measuring the wrong things 

 

Have you ever seen the Mona Lisa? Do you know what makes it very, very special? 2 things

1. She seems to be smiling at you personally

2. There’s human warmth in the smile

So how would you go about measuring that?

 

Today we can measure practically anything and everything about that painting.....colour spectrum, paint depth, exact age, moisture content, degree of contamination, nature of contaminants...,etc. But the skill of the painter and the nature and quality of his painting? Nope 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Yes you can hear the differences, quite clearly actually. It often changes the nature of the music  so its more than likely you’re simply measuring the wrong things 

-14odB!!!

By you're I suppose you mean the many many audio engineers that are and have been...  Anything that does not support your belief is wrong... No possibility of it being the other way round.

Do you ever read any of the posted links from me and others...

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12 minutes ago, marce said:

-14odB!!!

By you're I suppose you mean the many many audio engineers that are and have been...  Anything that does not support your belief is wrong... No possibility of it being the other way round.

Do you ever read any of the posted links from me and others...

By you’re I mean anyone that tells me the differences I hear and literally tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of others can hear are inaudible. Its not a belief I have, its simply a logical and very simple conclusion.  The differences you measure may be -140dB, which simply means that what you are measuring is not causing the differences i hear. Your measurements indicate that I can’t hear a difference. Yet I can. So what’s your conclusion....that I’m imagining the differences. Me and thousands of others....all imagining and describing the exact same thing. But there is a perfectly logical alternative explanation. The -140dB differences you are measuring are not responsible for the differences I’m hearing. It really doesn’t get much more straightforward and logical than that. 

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