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Mains conditioner for SMPSs?


semente

Question

I've got two extension leads/strip coming out of the wall socket, one for 3 SMPSs (laptop + router + NAS), the other for LSPU (Network Audio Adapter) + DAC + integrated amplifier.

Would it be worth spending on a mains conditioner lead/strip for the SMPSs?

Thanks.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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How do you check if high frequency noise doesn't alter the sound how do you check for it?

To check for noise needs measurements, a scope at least really. Then you have to determine whether the noise is having an effect on the final analogue output and at what level, again as some noise is way down, you can't perceive it, so again without measurements you have no reference.

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42 minutes ago, semente said:

Is there a difference in the way a computer sends data to another computer by say Ethernet (could it be data verification?) and the way a computer sends a data stream to a DAC?

Is the DAC also using Ethernet? Then the lower layers (Ethernet, IP, TCP/UDP) are exactly the same. Above this, protocols may vary. UPnP streaming usually uses HTTP requests to fetch the audio files just like a regular web browser would. There are also audio specific protocols such as RTP and Dante.

 

42 minutes ago, semente said:

Is it correct to differentiate between the two data transmission and data streaming?

No. The network doesn't know or care about the purpose of data packets.

 

42 minutes ago, semente said:

Is there a way to determine/measure if the data stream reaching the D/A chip is exactly the same which was transmited by the processing software?

Yes, monitor the I2S pins going into the DAC chip and compare the data with what was sent.

 

42 minutes ago, semente said:

Are there way to test the possible impact of noise/interference being sent along with the digital signal (voltages?) in D/A performace?

Sure, inject known noise into the interface and measure the output of the DAC.

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8 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

So let me understand this. You can look at the analog output of a DAC...a music signal and measure any additions caused by noise or jitter and use that measurement to diagnose what caused that change to the analog signal? Is that correct?  I’m wondering; within that analog signal, how do you differentiate whats music and supposed to be there from whats been caused by the jitter and Hf contamination and not supposed to be there? Can you for example take an analog output signal and directly measure the contribution of phase noise or would you need to set up a test jig to inject jitter and see how the analog output signal was modified? And once your know the answer, how would you know how much jitter was actually present in a given system i.e how would a user know if they had a problem with Hf noise or jitter?

i guess what I’m trying to understand is, how would a user know whether they had a problem or not with their system in their environment. What would the measurements look like, how would they be made? 

Measuring such things using purposely designed test signals is much easier than using music which is already a very imperfect signal. To check for jitter, we can simply play a pure tone and measure the spectrum of the output. Ideally, we'd then get a single narrow peak. If there is jitter, the spectrum will show some combination of additional side tones and widening of the peak. Here's a horrible example:

image.thumb.png.0cae1c04350912fe29c338d22493cf4d.png

 

If we want to know what is causing this, we have to measure the inputs to the device. For instance, we can check for jitter on the clock input. If the device doesn't have any jitter attenuation circuitry (a PLL), clock jitter will pass through to the output since there is no better reference. If there is a PLL, we can test its effectiveness by varying the amount and type of jitter at the input while checking the effect at the output.

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14 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Even less well known is that RF/EMI from internal SSDs can  affect WiFi in close proximity, which has implications for Computer audio, and is why some may prefer HDD over SSD .Use of a PCI-e SSD could be even more degrading for Audio.

 I saw a link to a pdf about this, but unfortunately the link no longer works. IIRC, I passed the link on to Speedskater at the time

 Although the link no longer works it may assist in locating the information.

https://www.ieice.org/proceedings/EMC14/contents/pdf/14A2-B4.pdf

 

It is correct that the switching noise generated by SSD can degrade SQ. There are special SSD filter and ferrites you can get to diminution their effect. SSD noise can also affect many other components besides Wi-Fi, which I don’t use more than to remotely control ROON.  

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8 hours ago, mansr said:

Unplug the SMPS strip and see if you can hear any difference in noise from the speakers with the volume turned up to 11. If not, a power conditioner will be of no benefit.

 

That's easy enough for me to give it a try. I could even record the output with a mic.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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Cheap wall warts can have a negative effect on SQ, and so can many of the components that is used in a computer, NAS and routers IMO. I think it’s good that you have separated the laptop, router and NAS from your NAA, DAC and integrated amplifier.

 

A power conditioner or power regenerator can be used as you describe it, but I would rather use a power conditioner on the audio gear instead. By doing that you will reduce both the mains noise made by your computer, NAS and routers + their SMPS and on top of that external mains noise.

 

A good quality power conditioner can be expansive thou and if the purpose is to separate one noisy part of the system from the other an isolation transformer can be a good cheap alternative.

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2 hours ago, marce said:

How do you check if high frequency noise doesn't alter the sound how do you check for it?

To check for noise needs measurements, a scope at least really. Then you have to determine whether the noise is having an effect on the final analogue output and at what level, again as some noise is way down, you can't perceive it, so again without measurements you have no reference.

Hi Marce,

Sensible question. High frequency noise does alter the sound but not in the analog way.....which is is to add audible noise that you hear along with the music. Rather it adds noise in the digital way which masks detail, robs the system of resolution and makes the sound slightly hard, edgy and metallic sounding and therefore slightly irritating over longer listening periods. 

I don’t have a scope, yet I’ve removed considerable noise from my system. How? By gradually replacing the sources of noise and those areas where noise enters the system. You’ll know when you’re successful as your system resolution will gradually increase and the sound will become sweeter and more natural. The point is, if you are genuinely interested in achieving better quality sound from your system you need to understand where your noise comes from and how it enters your system and how best to remove it. 

To answer the OPs question, I would simply borrow a designed-for-audio power extender,  try it on both sets of PSs and see if I can hear the difference. If I can I would add a second unit.  One unit will prevent noise entering the system from the mains and the other will prevent the SMPSs from polluting the mains. 

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2 hours ago, mansr said:

If one fears that a device might be harming the sound quality, is it not a valid test to unplug said device and check if the sound improves?

That totally depends on what it is. Is its your phone charger then sure. If its the power supplies for your network and/or source components then no 😊

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6 hours ago, marce said:

How do you check if high frequency noise doesn't alter the sound how do you check for it?

To check for noise needs measurements, a scope at least really. Then you have to determine whether the noise is having an effect on the final analogue output and at what level, again as some noise is way down, you can't perceive it, so again without measurements you have no reference.

This is obviously much easier to do in the Analogue area.

 With my Class A Preamp for example, I used my C.R.O at maximum sensitivity preceded by a very Low Noise battery operated preamplifier with a gain of 10

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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4 hours ago, mansr said:

If one fears that a device might be harming the sound quality, is it not a valid test to unplug said device and check if the sound improves?

 

In my case that would be difficult (if I unplug the router and the NAS my file playing system will no longer be the same) but not impossible because I do have a 10m long ethernet cable. I could place the router and the NAS elsewhere in the house.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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13 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi Marce,

Sensible question. High frequency noise does alter the sound but not in the analog way.....which is is to add audible noise that you hear along with the music. Rather it adds noise in the digital way which masks detail, robs the system of resolution and makes the sound slightly hard, edgy and metallic sounding and therefore slightly irritating over longer listening periods. 

I don’t have a scope, yet I’ve removed considerable noise from my system. How? By gradually replacing the sources of noise and those areas where noise enters the system. You’ll know when you’re successful as your system resolution will gradually increase and the sound will become sweeter and more natural. The point is, if you are genuinely interested in achieving better quality sound from your system you need to understand where your noise comes from and how it enters your system and how best to remove it. 

To answer the OPs question, I would simply borrow a designed-for-audio power extender,  try it on both sets of PSs and see if I can hear the difference. If I can I would add a second unit.  One unit will prevent noise entering the system from the mains and the other will prevent the SMPSs from polluting the mains. 

So its adding noise! That's how you mask detail.

 

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2 hours ago, marce said:

So its adding noise! That's how you mask detail.

 

Define noise.  Noise that you can hear or noise that interferes with processing of high frequency data streams that impacts resolution. 

Get back to my mosquito net analogy. With the fine mosquito net in place, you can’t actually see it but you also can’t see that its raining. Take the net away and the picture doesn’t change buy you can resolve finer detail, like raindrops

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58 minutes ago, marce said:

Again if you can hear it, its an issue...

Again, you can’t hear the noise, you can hear the effect of the noise, so of course its an issue.  I wasn’t the one who said it wasn’t an issue. If you remove any signal and turn up the volume you’ll hear nothing, because the noise that causes the loss of resolution is WAY above what is audible. All you hear is the effect, which is a negative impact on SQ and that’s the issue. Your music sounds fatiguing, less complex and less natural....more hi-fi and electronic in nature 

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1 hour ago, marce said:

So how does this noise have an effect on the resolution?

 

By affecting the DAC’s analog output s/n ratio. If you want a more detailed technical explanation you’ll need to ask someone who develops DACs. There is some rather complex math involved that goes well beyond my comprehension

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11 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Define noise.  Noise that you can hear or noise that interferes with processing of high frequency data streams that impacts resolution. 

Get back to my mosquito net analogy. With the fine mosquito net in place, you can’t actually see it but you also can’t see that its raining. Take the net away and the picture doesn’t change buy you can resolve finer detail, like raindrops

 

That sounds like a good analogy for a high vs. a low sampling rate.

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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4 hours ago, marce said:

So how does this noise have an effect on the resolution?

 

 

Blackmorec's net analogy is excellent for what occurs - the noise can't be heard as a signal in itself; but it impacts the ability of the system to be accurate. As mansr states above, just remove the possible noise maker entirely from the circuit - this means unplugging it from the outlet - and see whether an audible difference occurs. This is precisely what I've been doing for years, and it's been an excellent 'tool'.

 

Typical subjective symptoms are, with the "noise maker" operating, and causing an issue: sound is greyer, treble dulled, the 'life' is sucked out of the presentation, you don't want to keep listening to it - there's a sense of 'wrongness' about the sound ... remove the culprit, and all the negatives vanish - a sense of 'rightness' is restored.

 

The technical, measurable resolution merely moves, but the ability of the brain to "resolve" changes greatly - it's a psychoacoustic mechanism we're playing with here.

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