Electronic Engineering and hi-fi set-up

[marce]

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

 A typical type response from you and several other members.

 You just can't help yourself, can you ?

( Screen grab from the 1st "Resource"  linked to by you.)

 

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s were competent.

Again after many request you still come back with you sill ignorant replies when something relevant is posted in reply to someone else's comment. Fas was talking about shielding, I just pointed out some of the many references out there.  Others might want to learn.

Have you thought it takes more time to dig out the relevant information than it does to type an inane Luddite reply. 

And the E.E's you are referring to are the ones designing commercial audio!

[marce]

11 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

It is a typical response because it seeks to counter the common mode noise that is presented at such a high frequency here and elsewhere.

Common, yes in frequency, more differential in content.

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, marce said:

Again after many request you still come back with you sill ignorant replies when something relevant is posted in reply to someone else's comment. Fas was talking about shielding, I just pointed out some of the many references out there.  Others might want to learn.

Have you thought it takes more time to dig out the relevant information than it does to type an inane Luddite reply. 

And the E.E's you are referring to are the ones designing commercial audio!

How many Audiophiles do you think will wish to read further after seeing that Graphic insulting them ?

 I was actually going to look further until I saw that graphic.

 You must have known that it was there when  you posted a link to it. 

.

[Speedskater]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

How many Audiophiles do you think will wish to read further after seeing that Graphic insulting them ?

One wonders how that Graphic would be insulting to Audiophiles?

[kumakuma]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

One wonders how that Graphic would be insulting to Audiophiles?

 

He appears to have missed the first slide showing who the presentation was made to.

[Speedskater]

58 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

He appears to have missed the first slide showing who the presentation was made to.

The first part is a simplified Power Point that applies to humans that do more than just plug things into the wall. (after page 21 it starts to get more technical)

[Ralf11]

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth...

[marce]

23 hours ago, sandyk said:

How many Audiophiles do you think will wish to read further after seeing that Graphic insulting them ?

 I was actually going to look further until I saw that graphic.

 You must have known that it was there when  you posted a link to it. 

.

You need to see someone, you have issues mate.

[sandyk]

53 minutes ago, marce said:

You need to see someone, you have issues mate.

 

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Neither should consumers need to use special Power distribution boards, mains filters and special A.C. Isolation transformers with vanishingly low capacitance between Primary and Secondary sides, or put some components on a different mains feed if the components were well designed in the first place.

 

Audio components should be like cars, in that you only need to read and take notice of the owner's handbook for them to perform optimally.

 

 

[Blackmorec]

53 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Neither should consumers need to use special Power distribution boards, mains filters and special A.C. Isolation transformers with vanishingly low capacitance between Primary and Secondary sides, or put some components on a different mains feed if the components were well designed in the first place.

 

 

With respect Sandy,  I’m not sure i fully agree there. I’ve had some pretty good gear from some very well respected and knowledgable designers/engineers over the years and it has always sounded marvellous, but I can’t think of a single instance where a dedicated mains supply and the removal of noise generating sources hasn’t further improved its sound.  And if I look at what I consider to be some of the very best performing systems in the World, the one thing they all share in common are anti-noise and anti-vibration measures. 

 

The thing about hi-fi is, I can go to my local electronics store, buy a reasonable source, amps and speakers, hook it all up with the included cables and when I press play, out comes music. No need to buy special anything. Just the regular stuff and I get music that the vast majority of people would find enjoyable, although its also fairly likely it wouldn’t get a lot of use, simply because its not terribly compelling. 

Audiophiles on the other hand are chasing their musical ideals....and will go to unbelievable lengths to achieve them. Most people, including a lot who post here on this website have never heard anything like the full potential from modern recordings....potential that CAN make a 44.1/16 bit file sound like a 1/2” master tape. Such systems are extremely rare, very expensive and require enormous care in matching, set-up, execution and room optimisation.  You simply don’t get to those pinnacles of sound quality without paying attention to absolutely everything. 

Very clearly there are people who post here very frequently that cannot and will never hear the difference a USB cable CAN make. If you take the time to look at photos of their set ups you’ll immediately understand why. There are just so many places where sound quality is lost.....

• speakers positioned too closely together
• Back radiating speakers too close to walls
• coiled cables 
• cheap mains extenders strips 
• poorly routed, tangled cabling
• sub optimal cables
• Make-do equipment supports that are very obviously unstable and vibrate a lot 
• sources of diffraction placed next to loudspeakers
• components standing on their sides or piled on top of one another
• poor quality, super-cheap SMPSs plugged in alongside hi-fi gear etc. 

However, these systems play music and when their owners do things like trying a power cable or a usb cable or a better interconnect, they hear no difference and conclude that its all snake oil.  And there’s nothing that you and I can do to convince them otherwise. There are some mountains that are either just too high,  too difficult or simply not worth climbing.  

 

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

With respect Sandy,  I’m not sure i fully agree there.

You are preaching to the converted . In  this case I was simply pointing out , tongue in cheek, that there is far more to it than putting into practice the recommendations in a book designed for the consumption of other E.E.s, NOT the typical consumer.

 

Yes,  I am well aware of those items in your checklist.

[Blackmorec]

7 minutes ago, sandyk said:

You are preaching to the converted . In  this case I was simply pointing out , tongue in cheek, that there is far more to it than putting into practice the recommendations in a book designed for the consumption of other E.E.s, NOT the typical consumer.

 

Yes,  I am well aware of those items in your checklist.

Yes, I get that. I was just getting frustrated with all the nonsense.  While it was addressed to you it didn’t address you..You just opened the door 😉

[John Dyson]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Neither should consumers need to use special Power distribution boards, mains filters and special A.C. Isolation transformers with vanishingly low capacitance between Primary and Secondary sides, or put some components on a different mains feed if the components were well designed in the first place.

 

Audio components should be like cars, in that you only need to read and take notice of the owner's handbook for them to perform optimally.

 

 

I agree with you, but the problem isn't always the competency of the EEs, but sometimtes the beancounters forcing them into weird compromises.   Gotta keep good discipline!!! But generally, I agree.   If cable matching, good board layout, good grounding design was moee common, then mildly substandard cables would be a little less of an issue.   But then, there were (hopefully) EEs with proper engineering discipline  designing the cable...

 

It isn't just the EEs with good discipline designing one piece of equpment, but it requires reasonable EE competency of each important component, and reasonable USER level knowhow together.

 

If some manager pushed me into a bad compromise, and I wasn't trying to feed a family, I would simply quit such a mess.   Grabbing an EE college student, even one who was technically competent, and pushing them into bad positions will also sometimes result in bad design.

 

The worst is the generally competent EE, who goes into 'design mode' without engineering discipline, producing their beautiflul art project.   That kind of situation will sometimes produce bad results, but sometimes result in good stuff.   I don't like artful design, just give me good i design discipline & standards, and get the help of an industrial designer for packaging.   Keep the discipline with competent EE/engineers (I mean, TRUE ENGINEERS), and there will be a good chance for good results.

 

* it is easy to forget that 'EE' who knows the technology does not necessary imply good engineering discipline and high standards.

 

John

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I agree,but the problem isn't always the competency of the EEs, but sometimtes the beancounters forcing them into weird compromises.  

Hi John

 I have previously said the same on numerous occasions in this forum.

As a DIY person, I have no such restraints with my own equipment, otherwise I wouldn't be currently trialling a very low noise Jung Regulator in the PSU for the analogue section of my DIY DAC. It is giving a very worthwhile improvement.

Regards

Alex

[John Dyson]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

Hi John

 I have previously said the same on numerous occasions in this forum.

As a DIY person, I have no such restraints with my own equipment, otherwise I wouldn't be currently trialling a very low noise Jung Regulator in the PSU for the analogue section of my DIY DAC. It is giving a very worthwhile improvement.

Regards

Alex

With true DIY and working for the love of the best possible results, then the discipline isn't needed, except in the 'less interesting' areas.  If I was doing my project commercially, it would have been total crap, because even with the discipline, there wouldn't be enough time for all of the testing and reverse engineering.  There isn't a good cost/benefit tradeoff. However, I am also a victim of 'artful design' from time to time.   My project is the result of a total time commitment, but working engineers usually don't have the wherewithall or freedom to commit themselves for 100% of their life, instead they have to work 'smart'.  My own project wouldn't really be very easy if planned fully ahead,  where true R+D reared its ugly head also.   (R+D doesn't include creating yet another preamp design, unless it has significant innovation.)  The 'little-R' version of research is usually VERY hard work, most of the time an audio project doesn't entail all that much 'research'.

 

Good results often does require GREAT commitment.   Geesh, during my very boring last week, I designed the best, most wonderful audio preamp on spice -- however, we all know that the real-world result would be crap.  At least, I am good enough to make a perfect temperature compensated design (transistors don't usually 'drift' all that much, they are very predictable, even being used as thermometers.)   Capacitors do drift vs. temp and sometimes humidty quite a bit for example.  The bottom line, that even with the detailed, accurate knowledge, being expert at 'design from scratch' -- doesn't make the work 'engineering', it is just designing.

 

I know that YOU (Alex) know this, but just knowing the technology, even very well, doesn't make a person into a good design  *engineer.*   Being a good or competent designer doesn't imply that proper engineering discipline comes along with it.  Even though I am very technically competent, I haven't done real electrical engineering since about 1993...  Most of the time, I have adviced engineer/EE friends about more troublesome technical issues, but my advice comes without the proper engineering discipline to produce product.

 

(Many of you reading this already know this):

 

'EE design' not the same as 'EE Engineering' not the same as 'EE R+D & EE R+D Engineering'.   These all can come from a similar knowledge base, but the discipline and effort can be very different.

 

John

 

[Speedskater]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Nothing in the first 86 pages of the Bill Whitlock Power Point speak to original equipment design stages. Yes there are some simplified schematics (but nothing for a circuit designer).

[marce]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Neither should consumers need to use special Power distribution boards, mains filters and special A.C. Isolation transformers with vanishingly low capacitance between Primary and Secondary sides, or put some components on a different mains feed if the components were well designed in the first place.

 

Audio components should be like cars, in that you only need to read and take notice of the owner's handbook for them to perform optimally.

 

 

Yet you keep pointing to the big thread on Servers.....

[marce]

1 hour ago, Speedskater said:

Nothing in the first 86 pages of the Bill Whitlock Power Point speak to original equipment design stages. Yes there are some simplified schematics (but nothing for a circuit designer).

Layout is more problematic, and a different discipline, but again a wealth of information out there... Much of it referenced and dissed on here by the usual suspects.

2 hours ago, John Dyson said:

'EE design' not the same as 'EE Engineering' not the same as 'EE R+D & EE R+D Engineering'.   These all can come from a similar knowledge base, but the discipline and effort can be very different.

You missed PCB design... Layout being a critical factor in the final circuit working as required.

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I repeat  :

 Consumers shouldn't need to know these things, they should have been taken care of in the original equipment design stages if the E.E.s that designed them were competent.

Neither should consumers need to use special Power distribution boards, mains filters and special A.C. Isolation transformers with vanishingly low capacitance between Primary and Secondary sides, or put some components on a different mains feed if the components were well designed in the first place.

 

Audio components should be like cars, in that you only need to read and take notice of the owner's handbook for them to perform optimally.

 

 

 

But lots of people on HERE are not just consumers, or if just consumers are certainly not ordinary ones - see the title of the forum for help on this.

 

Do you own a car?  New cars often have large tomes for owner's manuals, and sometimes a 20 page quick start guide too.

 

I agree none of those things you mention should need to be done.  But people on here (not to mention the crazier Audiophool sites) often do those things and more, even if not needed.

[fas42]

My experiences have been that the core circuitry works well enough - it's the auxiliary parts, other necessary hardware that let the side down. - usually because the "good enough" items are too expensive; hence the first to be jettisoned, to keep the cost down.

 

The neater the implementation, visually, usually the better the performance, for the parts used. Temperature stability is relevant in that frequently a very extended warming up is necessary for best SQ - the 24/7 switch-on is the logical solution in some cases - it would be nice, 😉, if the design could 'guarantee' that close to best was available in 5 - 10 minutes from a cold start ... but I won't hold my breath! 🙂

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I agree,none of those things you mention should need to be done.  But people on here (not to mention the crazier Audiophool sites) often do those things and more, even if not needed.

 

 I do too, as can be seen in #64, but I am far removed from a typical Audio consumer.

I don't even use additional external Linear PSUs with my PC  like many members do,  as you will almost  certainly end up with earth loops, even if only minor.

The normal Audio Consumer should not need to take these additional steps as linked to, which are mainly intended for Professionals in that area, at the design stages .

[sandyk]

21 minutes ago, fas42 said:

My experiences have been that the core circuitry works well enough - it's the auxiliary parts, other necessary hardware that let the side down. - usually because the "good enough" items are too expensive; hence the first to be jettisoned, to keep the cost down.

 

The neater the implementation, visually, usually the better the performance, for the parts used. Temperature stability is relevant in that frequently a very extended warming up is necessary for best SQ - the 24/7 switch-on is the logical solution in some cases - it would be nice, 😉, if the design could 'guarantee' that close to best was available in 5 - 10 minutes from a cold start ... but I won't hold my breath! 🙂

Re Temperature Stability.

 It's ridiculous in this day and age that you should need to do so in many cases when you can use temperature compensation techniques as I do in my DIY gear, especially the Class A Preamp and Class A Power Amplifier.

Not only is it wasteful of electricity, but reduces the lifetime of components such as Vacuum Tubes and the larger electrolytic filter capacitors, in many cases leading to the binning of the gear, and the purchase of a replacement due to high service charges mainly due to the cost of Labor and special components. 

[Albrecht]

On 11/10/2019 at 1:24 AM, sandyk said:

How many Audiophiles do you think will wish to read further after seeing that Graphic insulting them ?

 I was actually going to look further until I saw that graphic.

 You must have known that it was there when  you posted a link to it. 

.

Insults not funny, not creative: and in order to be so, - has to have some element of truth.

 

If there was an argument anywhere, - it would've been made. Or is it that certain troll's here are just not capable of presenting a good argument?, - that straw man, and (personal) appeals to authority will somehow sway audiophiles from the truth & knowledge that they experience.

This is why I say that the 6 or 7 trolls here are just venting anger and their jealousy. Wouldn't one think at least some of them, - would actually have a goal at defining what they might mean by "well-designed" system. How are high performance audio components poorly designed?  How are Vladimir Lamm's amps NOT well designed, while Sony receivers are? Because they utilize tubes? Or because they are more expensive? What about Solid State Pass Labs amps? How many houses have Lamm amps burned down? What is the total cost of the internal components of a LAMM amp as opposed to a Denon receiver? Does Vladimir Lamm not have an engineering degree? How has "basic physics" been violated in Lamm amps, and NOT in Sony's? Or is it because an item is more expensive, - it has to be poorly designed?, and also sounds the same? If it sounds the same, - how is it poorly designed?

So many questions, - so few answers forthcoming.... 

If the only thing that is done is hurl un-funny sarcastic insults, - how does that sway folks from continuing to evaluate high performance gear?

When these questions are asked, - crickets.....

[fas42]

Hi Alex - how's it looking for you as regards getting everything around your place in good shape for the fire threat, and keeping yourself safe? We're in the middle of the bad zone, and doing as much as we can to, ummm, stabilise the situation ... keeps temperatures down, in this case, 🙂.

 

With regard to circuitry, I find that passive parts, as well as active areas of circuitry, benefit from longer term conditioning - the tradeoff of better SQ, against shorter life spans, is still worthwhile ... if that's a simple tactic that can be used.

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Hi Alex - how's it looking for you as regards getting everything around your place in good shape for the fire threat, and keeping yourself safe? We're in the middle of the bad zone, and doing as much as we can to, ummm, stabilise the situation ... keeps temperatures down, in this case, 🙂.

 For those who don't know, NSW Australia is about to experience the worst bushfire conditions it has ever experienced, with even several areas in Greater Sydney under direct threat.

 I sincerely hope that Frank and his neighbours properties remain safe, although there is still likely to be severe smoke and breathing difficulties for many who remain.