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Blackmorec

Electronic Engineering and hi-fi set-up

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Sometimes filters increase detail.

Like Polarized sunglasses.

At the classical music radio station, there was a complaint about hum on the host's microphone. It could not be heard on the station's good sound system or my hi-fi system. But the next morning it was vary audible on my clock radio.

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1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

A low-pass filter?

Hi Kal, 

The mosquito net was an analogy for something you weren’t aware of that is robbing your hi-fi of detail. I would presume a low pass filter is a necessary part of the design 😁

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Your analogy and description of the possible problem relates to electrical noise or similar in the system.
I clearly experienced a major difference between AC powered and Battery powered DAC. At the time  I had a  Zodiac Gold DAC.
Although I had also bought the special power supply designed for the DAC, whenever I used the battery power with the DAC the SQ was much better. Especially with the lower registers, the bass sounded much cleaner, better defined and more pleasing to listen to. I always had to turn the volume up as I could play much louder, presumably because of the lower distortion/noise level.
 


Audirvana+3.0 / TIDAL HiFi / Mac Mini (256GB SSD - 16GB RAM)

Lindemann Musicbook: 20 DSD, ATC EL 150ASL

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42 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Just as the mosquito net is necessary for reasons other than transparency.  😉

‘Left over from Summer’.....the inference being that it was no longer needed but forgotten because it was more or less invisible. Just an analogy Kal, not the point of the discussion, which was, is there something in your hi-fi that your not aware of that could be robbing it of detail?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

‘Left over from Summer’.....the inference being that it was no longer needed but forgotten because it was more or less invisible. Just an analogy Kal, not the point of the discussion, which was, is there something in your hi-fi that your not aware of that could be robbing it of detail?

Possibly but I am always experimenting to ferret out those matters.

 

8 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

And the important point is that the battery power didn’t add bass......rather the noise from the AC was robbing the system of bass.  

No, the other PS was adding noise.  The bass was always there but the added noise made it difficult for the listener to perceive it.    


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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35 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Possibly but I am always experimenting to ferret out those matters.

 

No, the other PS was adding noise.  The bass was always there but the added noise made it difficult for the listener to perceive it.    

Was the PS adding noise or falling to reduce it as well as the battery?


Audirvana+3.0 / TIDAL HiFi / Mac Mini (256GB SSD - 16GB RAM)

Lindemann Musicbook: 20 DSD, ATC EL 150ASL

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3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

 is there something in your hi-fi that your not aware of that could be robbing it of detail?

 

 

a USB cable that meets spec.?


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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2 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Was the PS adding noise or falling to reduce it as well as the battery?

How would the battery reduce the noise? Kal was correct.

 

Of course without electronic engineering and the advances made over the years we wouldn't have the kit we do today.

There is also a whole wealth of information on low noise design in electronics, signal integrity and EMC, many more sensitive designs out there than audio. Looking at simultaneous witching noise is interesting in relation to noise from digital circuits. Layout is critical for low noise electronics, get that wrong and all bets are off, but there is as said many sources of information and results from testing etc. Then there is filtering... especially of DC...

Finally, having separate power supply's with umbilical's, many add on boxes with extra cabling (clocks!!!!) is not the best way for a noise free system, loops everywhere, without some serious measurements, you are only guessing whether its reducing noise or adding noise and remember noise can also enhance the audio, making it more enjoyable to some, 2nd harmonic and some tube amps is one example.

Power delivery systems have been discussed often, with digital its not just the front end supply that is critical, far more critical is the on board supply components such as decoupling capacitors, local supplies next to the device they are powering. Interesting with battery's without front end regulation the internal impedance rises with frequency, that leads to increased noise and possibilities of power fluctuations during heavy digital switching. 

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1 hour ago, marce said:

How would the battery reduce the noise? Kal was correct.

By replacing the source of the noise.   The AC mains power and associated cabling

 

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this is a quantitative issue: does the battery have more noise than an AC outlet power supply?  which is easier to filter out, etc.?

 

here is an oldie but moldy for those wanting to find out...

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1133.pdf


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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35 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

this is a quantitative issue: does the battery have more noise than an AC outlet power supply?  which is easier to filter out, etc.?

 

here is an oldie but moldy for those wanting to find out...

https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1133.pdf

 

Completing your reference some measurements. Not all batteries are equal vs noise...

http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/NoiseMeasurementsOnChemicalBatteries.pdf

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7 hours ago, Speedskater said:

Sometimes filters increase detail.

Like Polarized sunglasses.

At the classical music radio station, there was a complaint about hum on the host's microphone. It could not be heard on the station's good sound system or my hi-fi system. But the next morning it was vary audible on my clock radio.

 

I believe you, but as a technical person can you offer a plausible explanation for this ?

 Are you talking about FM stereo ?


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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24 minutes ago, Arpiben said:

 

Completing your reference some measurements. Not all batteries are equal vs noise...

http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/NoiseMeasurementsOnChemicalBatteries.pdf

 All batteries have some noise, with perhaps some such as LiFePO 4 types being lower noise than most. However, batteries normally  need to be connected using metal to metal contacts, unless they are soldered in. This also introduces additional series resistance, as does the wire needed to connect them to the device to be powered. They should also be bypassed at the device end by suitable value capacitors to reduce any HF noise, as well as RF/EMI picked up on the often relatively long connecting leads .


How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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3 hours ago, marce said:

How would the battery reduce the noise? Kal was correct.

 

Of course without electronic engineering and the advances made over the years we wouldn't have the kit we do today.

There is also a whole wealth of information on low noise design in electronics, signal integrity and EMC, many more sensitive designs out there than audio. Looking at simultaneous witching noise is interesting in relation to noise from digital circuits. Layout is critical for low noise electronics, get that wrong and all bets are off, but there is as said many sources of information and results from testing etc. Then there is filtering... especially of DC...

Finally, having separate power supply's with umbilical's, many add on boxes with extra cabling (clocks!!!!) is not the best way for a noise free system, loops everywhere, without some serious measurements, you are only guessing whether its reducing noise or adding noise and remember noise can also enhance the audio, making it more enjoyable to some, 2nd harmonic and some tube amps is one example.

Power delivery systems have been discussed often, with digital its not just the front end supply that is critical, far more critical is the on board supply components such as decoupling capacitors, local supplies next to the device they are powering. Interesting with battery's without front end regulation the internal impedance rises with frequency, that leads to increased noise and possibilities of power fluctuations during heavy digital switching. 

""Of course without electronic engineering and the advances made over the years we wouldn't have the kit we do today."

True that. And it is high performance audio electrical engineering that have really advanced, - guess what, - high performance equipment.

Where-as electrical engineering outside high performance audio, in different disciplines, - have actually hindered development. This is especially the case in multi-function computer design, - where certain engineers confuse design elements that make performance of many functions very good, and one function, (audio), - perform less well.

One example of this is Esoteric's VRDS NEO transport. Where-in many designers thought previously that software/firmware error correction didn't really do as good a job as super-accurate, beefy motor & magnesium disc clamping mechanism.

""Finally, having separate power supply's with umbilical's, many add on boxes with extra cabling (clocks!!!!) is not the best way for a noise free system, loops everywhere, without some serious measurements, you are only guessing whether its reducing noise""

Not really. High performance audio engineers measure and listen for that noise. The potential device purchaser doesn't need and shouldn't have to measure, - the proof will be in the comparative listening, - this will determine to them the effectiveness.

 

"far more critical is the on board supply components such as decoupling capacitors,"

No, far more critical is the HF noise leakage, and the out of phase AC current, sent back into the mains supply that also affect other sensitive digital gear in the chain. John Swenson has written about this, somewhat extensively, and provides great explanations about what is actually occurring with these low voltage digital circuits.

 

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Good topic for a thread, Blackmorec ... the "equivalent of the mosquito netting in hi-fi" is the low level haze, noise, distortion that essentially every setup 'adds' to the signal as it passes through - it requires hearing that very same rig stripped of these audible degradations - rolling up the net - to understand what has been happening.

 

Why I cottoned on so strongly, early in the piece, as to what was needed was that I 'accidentally' triggered the catch holding the net down; it instantly popped up - and I got a shock at the view. Trouble was, the spring holding the net up was extremely weak, and the net slowly rolled down again ... . But, I could tighten up the spring, for a temporary 'fix', and hey presto! The net went up again ... I really got fed up playing the game after many, many months of this 😜.

 

What lets the net down? ..just about everything, 😉. Why does one team win over and over again in Formula 1, in a particular season; and the "other one" always fails? And the situation is reversed in the next season? Is it - the engine, the chassis, the electronics, the team spirit, the driver, ... the colour of the device holding the wheels on? 😄 ... ummm, some people call it, "the weakest link" ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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The battery vs. mains saga continues ... there is no, The Solution!! It's always an engineering process - a poor battery attempt will be no better than a poor AC section; either mechanism will be do the job well enough, provided enough thought, and testing, has gone into it ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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8 hours ago, mevdinc said:

Was the PS adding noise or falling to reduce it as well as the battery?

That doesn't make any sense to me.  If the source of the noise is inside the device, neither should affect it.  If it exists with the PS, it or the AC line is the culprit.  The battery (assuming it is adequate to the load) should not introduce any.

 


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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5 hours ago, marce said:

How would the battery reduce the noise? Kal was correct.

 

4 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

By replacing the source of the noise.   The AC mains power and associated cabling

Removing the AC/PS reduces/removes the noise.  The battery neither adds nor removes anything (ideally).


Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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Just continuing on the battery vs. mains issue, it's been interesting to see how the local audio friend has developed in his thinking - early in the piece, especially in respect to vinyl, he decided that AC had to go! He's done a huge amount of experimenting over the years, with a large variety of battery solutions - only to, just now, come full circle !! 😲 Before the last visit, he mentioned that as an idle experiment he fired up the mains supplies, for the first time in ages - and it sounded better! To him, at that moment!

 

So, what's going on? Is it because "it's different", or, has the battery solution slowly sagged, deteriorated in some area, unnoticed by him? He suspects the latter, and I would tend to agree with him - he aims to go through everything, check and 'refresh' the whole battery configuration; thereby evening up the playing field, and then do more thorough comparisons ... unfortunately, it wasn't a good time, in the last visit, to do some A/B ing.

 

Which emphasises a theme that's critical, IME. Just because you think you've done everything to make the system work right, in fact is a 0% guarantee that such is the case - the net can fall down from the 'slightest vibration' - and so you have to be constantly vigilant, and know how to check the SQ.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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