UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Listening Impressions

[Gr8tful]

On 9/18/2021 at 8:00 AM, jas said:

I share no equipment with your system so my remarks have to be limited, with the exception of the Emotiva. If you haven't already, you might try as I did with success, removing it to test the problem area without it. I can't say it specifically improved high frequency edge you're hearing, but it did improve the ease and naturalness in my system of the high frequency reproduction overall. I was always curious if I could identify which piece of equipment removing the Emotiva affected the most, if any, but liked the improvement too much to go back. I moved on to a Topaz Isolation Transformer and didn't look back.

 

That's interesting. It improved greatly the Schiit Vidar monoblocks I had previously. It killed serious transformer hum. I did move it in and out and had the same experience as you, overall improvement in ease and naturalness. The improvement wasn't as extreme as replacing power cords. Power cords seem to be very idiosyncratic, the emotiva is more across the board. I've been eyeballing isolation transformers, sweet man!

[TimF]

Quick q. I have the TP-LINK Archer VR2800. Any optimisation in settings required to improve sound quality to the etherregen? 
 

Thanks Tim 

[GryphonGuy]

8 hours ago, TimF said:

Quick q. I have the TP-LINK Archer VR2800. Any optimisation in settings required to improve sound quality to the etherregen? 
 

Thanks Tim 

 

This sounds like a loaded question. So I'll say there shouldn't be any special set up required. EtherRegen does its thing on hard-wired ethernet signals; and very well at that in my opinion.

 

Regards

GG

[jos]

Yes, I known, it’s off topic, but what kind of new product(s) we could expect from our UpTone Audio friends in the near future, or did I miss something?

[PYP]

12 minutes ago, jos said:

Yes, I known, it’s off topic, but what kind of new product(s) we could expect from our UpTone Audio friends in the near future, or did I miss something?

A different but related question:  How are the shipping bottlenecks and chips/parts shortages affecting the roll out of new products?  Must be a terrible headache.  And when will these problems be resolved (hint:  use the magic eight ball).  

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, jos said:

Yes, I known, it’s off topic, but what kind of new product(s) we could expect from our UpTone Audio friends in the near future, or did I miss something?

 

6 hours ago, PYP said:

A different but related question:  How are the shipping bottlenecks and chips/parts shortages affecting the roll out of new products?  Must be a terrible headache.  And when will these problems be resolved (hint:  use the magic eight ball).  

 

 

Yes, global chip shortages have been making production and development VERY challenging! In fact, since Intel/Altera will not have any FGPAs available for the next 2 years, we have been forced to discontinue the UltraCap LPS-1.2 and are beginning to migrate to a different brand FGPA platform (with a whole new development environment s/w to learn) for our new products. 

 

Not only has the lack of parts slowed new product development, it has become a major hinderance to continued production of EtherREGEN! 

Clock buffers, high-speed digital isolators, clock synthesizers, the intermediate Ethernet transceiver/format converter we use on both sides of the moat, and the main Ethernet switch chip--all in exceedingly short supply. All year I have been ordering parts ahead to stockpile for future EtherREGEN production runs--to the tune of nearly $80K in advance parts.  Has gone mostly well until this past month when several chip manufacturers pushed the promised shipment dates (for parts I advance ordered months ago) out to the middle of 2022.  And the main switch chip? Who knows if we will ever see any again!

 

Right now we have about 50 EtherREGENs left in stock--and those will likely all sell out by early-November.  Assuming our June 500 piece order of the aforementioned T.I. transceiver chips actually ship mid-December as promised, then we'll have enough parts to run 225 boards--so those could complete units for shipment end-of-January.  But unless we all of a sudden start to see many of the above bottlenecked parts start to flow (especially the main switch chip--which I doubt), that run of 225 may be the final production of EtherREGEN in its current design.  We are starting now in new direction, one that could free us from being beholden to a single supplier's production of an application-specific part. But as you all know, development and testing of new designs takes many months...

 

The above is quite distressing for us. While we continue to produce the JS-2 at a rate of about 200 units/year, the forced discontinuation of both the ISO REGEN and the UltraCap LPS-1.2 have narrowed our offerings quite a lot. We are coming up on the 3,000 unit mark for EtherREGEN (since first shipments in November 2019). Simple math makes obvious that the EtherREGEN has been the most important and successful product UpTone has ever offered.

 

Of course we would love nothing more than to bring out all the new products John and I have designed (both on paper and in various stages of development, prototype, even one that went to secret beta).  But gone are the days where John can work out and test all the elements, we produce a few rounds of development and pre-production boards, and then submit the bill-of-materials for production by our board house. No, the entire design process has been flipped over--as we spend hours researching and discussing viability and availability of desired parts, both presently and for the future.

 

So there you have it. Thanks for all your support and enthusiasm,

--Alex C.

 

[simon_pepper]

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 

 

Yes, global chip shortages have been making production and development VERY challenging! In fact, since Intel/Altera will not have any FGPAs available for the next 2 years, we have been forced to discontinue the UltraCap LPS-1.2 and are beginning to migrate to a different brand FGPA platform (with a whole new development environment s/w to learn) for our new products. 

 

Not only has the lack of parts slowed new product development, it has become a major hinderance to continued production of EtherREGEN! 

Clock buffers, high-speed digital isolators, clock synthesizers, the intermediate Ethernet transceiver/format converter we use on both sides of the moat, and the main Ethernet switch chip--all in exceedingly short supply. All year I have been ordering parts ahead to stockpile for future EtherREGEN production runs--to the tune of nearly $80K in advance parts.  Has gone mostly well until this past month when several chip manufacturers pushed the promised shipment dates (for parts I advance ordered months ago) out to the middle of 2022.  And the main switch chip? Who knows if we will ever see any again!

 

Right now we have about 50 EtherREGENs left in stock--and those will likely all sell out by early-November.  Assuming our June 500 piece order of the aforementioned T.I. transceiver chips actually ship mid-December as promised, then we'll have enough parts to run 225 boards--so those could complete units for shipment end-of-January.  But unless we all of a sudden start to see many of the above bottlenecked parts start to flow (especially the main switch chip--which I doubt), that run of 225 may be the final production of EtherREGEN in its current design.  We are starting now in new direction, one that could free us from being beholden to a single supplier's production of an application-specific part. But as you all know, development and testing of new designs takes many months...

 

The above is quite distressing for us. While we continue to produce the JS-2 at a rate of about 200 units/year, the forced discontinuation of both the ISO REGEN and the UltraCap LPS-1.2 have narrowed our offerings quite a lot. We are coming up on the 3,000 unit mark for EtherREGEN (since first shipments in November 2019). Simple math makes obvious that the EtherREGEN has been the most important and successful product UpTone has ever offered.

 

Of course we would love nothing more than to bring out all the new products John and I have designed (both on paper and in various stages of development, prototype, even one that went to secret beta).  But gone are the days where John can work out and test all the elements, we produce a few rounds of development and pre-production boards, and then submit the bill-of-materials for production by our board house. No, the entire design process has been flipped over--as we spend hours researching and discussing viability and availability of desired parts, both presently and for the future.

 

So there you have it. Thanks for all your support and enthusiasm,

--Alex C.

 

Sorry to hear about the disruption to your supply chain and product offerings. And the changes to your product lineup being forced upon you.
Could I ask about in-field support for existing products - I have a UltraCap LPS 1 (powering an UltraRendu) and an EtherRegen, if there were issues with these, what is going to be the available options?

[SQFIRST]

Hello everyone,

 

Just wanted to post my recent experience with the EtherRegen. 

 

I am a streamer and find the ease of online audio/video access to entertainment suitable. I got the ER very recently and have spent some time using it. The difference it has made to my network is huge for its price point. As some others have already observed, the ER helps with not just the Audio but any Video streaming you may have in place. For me the evidence visually on my HT setup as well as on my Lumin X1 is significant enough that I restructured my entire network to focus on the ER. In terms of component upgrade I find it has provided similar effectiveness as a Video processor, PreAmplifier, Cabling, Power and more. Individually all of those already need to be in place for a system to be resolving of course. But for streamers, the ER (and any network cleaner similar to it) is simply essential.

For Audio what I notice using the ER:

-Roon server related sound quality constraints have disappeared. Previously this was a challenge to cleanup. 

-Better imaging, resolution and dynamic range.

For the Video entertainment side:

-Increased contrast with better blacks. Specifically projector handling of HDR material is improved. Color is enhanced. 

-Audio for HT is just as improved as my music setup. 

 

Even prior to the ER I was focused on improving my network quality as my entertainment is streaming based. The ER has fit that critical position in my network that I did not know was possible by a single device. It, and any other products out there and those coming in the future, are the game-changers that we get excited about.

Kudos to John and Alex.

 

[Gr8tful]

What does leakage current sound like? Try this, place a medical grade device in front your Er’s A side. Plug your endpoint into B side and plug your server into A side. Listen. Now remove medical device and plug straight into A side. Digital hash in all its gory detail. When can we get an Er with two ports on the B side? For those of us with server, that would be sweet. Until then, guess we gotta scooby up another Er before they’re sold out……

[Mihaylov]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:05 PM, Superdad said:

we feed each reg (LDOs is what they are called) just about 0.7V above their target output voltage--

This is good for little heat dissipation, but bad for the level of ripple rejection according to the graph from the datasheet.

 

[Cable Monkey]

5 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

This is good for little heat dissipation, but bad for the level of ripple rejection according to the graph from the datasheet.

Is it bad in a device where that should have been pretty effectively dealt with in the PSU that feeds the ER?

[JohnSwenson]

8 hours ago, Mihaylov said:

This is good for little heat dissipation, but bad for the level of ripple rejection according to the graph from the datasheet.

 

Most of the LT3045/LT3042s have 0.8 volts across them. The core voltages (1.1V) have 0.9V. This is a very careful engineering tradeoff, this was as high as I could go and live within the thermal constraints. I have to prevent the chips from getting too close to their upper die temperature (you never run right at it, you need a significant buffer there) AND I needed to cut down on the total power drawn, we had some hard limits as to total feed power to the sections of the board. The values chosen just meet the thermal constraints while giving quite good performance, I would not call what we achieved "bad", maybe not quite the best possible, but any real design is never about getting one parameter the best it is theoretically possible to get and letting others fall by the wayside. It is always a complex set of tradeoffs optimizing the best overall device within the constraints.

 

We could run the regulators with 3V across each one, but then it would be a much larger board and cost at least 3 times as much and draw 2.5 times the power. Because the board is bigger chips are further apart from each other which could actually wind up with worse electrical performance. I made the decision that this was NOT a good tradeoff.

 

John S.

[audiojerry]

7 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

Most of the LT3045/LT3042s have 0.8 volts across them. The core voltages (1.1V) have 0.9V. This is a very careful engineering tradeoff, this was as high as I could go and live within the thermal constraints. I have to prevent the chips from getting too close to their upper die temperature (you never run right at it, you need a significant buffer there) AND I needed to cut down on the total power drawn, we had some hard limits as to total feed power to the sections of the board. The values chosen just meet the thermal constraints while giving quite good performance, I would not call what we achieved "bad", maybe not quite the best possible, but any real design is never about getting one parameter the best it is theoretically possible to get and letting others fall by the wayside. It is always a complex set of tradeoffs optimizing the best overall device within the constraints.

 

We could run the regulators with 3V across each one, but then it would be a much larger board and cost at least 3 times as much and draw 2.5 times the power. Because the board is bigger chips are further apart from each other which could actually wind up with worse electrical performance. I made the decision that this was NOT a good tradeoff.

 

John S.

"but then it would be a much larger board and cost at least 3 times as much"

Does this statement suggest that it might be possible to build a better ER on a larger board? I'd be interested in paying more for an upgraded ER 2.0. 

[Superdad]

15 minutes ago, audiojerry said:

Does this statement suggest that it might be possible to build a better ER on a larger board?

Possible but not necessarily desirable as John explained. 
And as I have discussed previously (somewhere in our forum here), John and I have sketched out (on paper only) several other EtherREGEN-like designs—both more and less elaborate and more and less costly—which would be desirable to offer.
However, given the present global chip shortages, we struggle just to continue to produce our current products. Much to our chagrin, development and production of new products will inch forward very slowly in the coming year.

[watts]

On 12/26/2019 at 12:26 PM, sandervdp said:

Agnes Obel's The Curse

Only on page 21 of this thread, but decided to check this out, and what an awesome tune! thanks for the suggestion!! So much good music out there I have no idea about. Good stuff. 😊

[watts]

I see a change on the Uptone website: 😃

 

We now have all parts in house now and circuit board production has begun again. If you place your EtherREGEN order now it will ship to you by January 31st. 

After reading this whole thread, and the many favourable reviews, as well as several others across the globe decided to order one. 🙂 As I currently go through the patience many in this thread have also gone through up to 2 years ago(!) (I'm a little late to the game) I'll just ask a question to tide me over:

 

 

Based on your post from October above, the current EtherRegens's should be the same, going forward have you had to revise some of the parts based on this issue? 

 

[Nikko1960]

3 minutes ago, watts said:

 

Are the current EtherRegens's the same, or have you had to revise some of the parts based on this issue? 

 

 

They are all the same.  The nice thing about them is that you can add an external clock at a later date and get another huge uplift to SQ.  I bought an Afterdark OCXO clock and matching LPU from Adrian (see his paid forum on this site).  I got the Emperor Crown SE version and am really, really happy with it and the ER combo.

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, watts said:

I see a change on the Uptone website: 

Wow, sharp eyes! I made that change just about an hour ago. 

 

5 minutes ago, watts said:

After reading this whole thread, and the many favourable reviews, as well as several others across the globe decided to order one.

That's great, many thanks!

 

5 minutes ago, watts said:

As I currently go through the patience many in this thread have also gone through up to 2 years ago(!) (I'm a little late to the game)...

Hey, better late than never... 

 

5 minutes ago, watts said:

Based on your post from October above, the current EtherRegens's should be the same, going forward have you had to revise some of the parts based on this issue? 

Same as ever. Only difference is that this time I paid "through the nose" for a lot of the parts for this run. Our cost is at least $40 higher this time around--though not changing the retail price yet.

 

[watts]

1 minute ago, Nikko1960 said:

 

They are all the same.  The nice thing about them is that you can add an external clock at a later date and get another huge uplift to SQ.  I bought an Afterdark OCXO clock and matching LPU from Adrian (see his paid forum on this site).  I got the Emperor Crown SE version and am really, really happy with it and the ER combo.

Ah, you are too quick. I re-read his post above and reworded my question, as it does state the next 225 units (now) should be the same, but unsure what happens after that batch. Apologies; I am getting over Covid, so my mind seems a little foggy still. 

[DavidCoe]

Received my Ether Regen today and let it cook before having a listen now. Firstly, in preparation for it I had ordered some Blue Jeans ethernet cables to replace the £2 ones I was previously using and they are both very reasonably priced along with giving a noticeable improvement in SQ. But on to the EtherRegen. I can report a massive increase in SQ using between my Cisco switch and DCS Bartok. I won't report everything that everyone else has said but believe me this is one great product! I just pity those whose prejudices won't let them try it or who cannot hear the clear difference this little box makes. I'll let you know if it gets better still-it's had 4 hrs use so far. Also looking forward to messing about with the other A sockets to see if that makes any differences

David

[rsctyslkr]

1 hour ago, DavidCoe said:

Received my Ether Regen today and let it cook before having a listen now. Firstly, in preparation for it I had ordered some Blue Jeans ethernet cables to replace the £2 ones I was previously using and they are both very reasonably priced along with giving a noticeable improvement in SQ. But on to the EtherRegen. I can report a massive increase in SQ using between my Cisco switch and DCS Bartok. I won't report everything that everyone else has said but believe me this is one great product! I just pity those whose prejudices won't let them try it or who cannot hear the clear difference this little box makes. I'll let you know if it gets better still-it's had 4 hrs use so far. Also looking forward to messing about with the other A sockets to see if that makes any differences

David

 

Hello David, your experience mirrors mine from 8 months ago. So much that I just purchased a second ER ... if it helps - great. If not, I'll have a spare. It is the highest return on tweaking dollar I have spent by far.

[bailyhill]

I had similar experiences several years ago with the eR, feeding the Meridian Ultra Dac.  Definitely an uptic in realism.

 

[chungjh]

I have ER connected to my Lumin X1 streamer/DAC via ethernet. I have heard many comments about how streamed music sounds better at night. I find this to be the case even though I am the only one in the house. I live in the suburb of Washington DC, so there may be a lot of RFI and dirty power grid. I installed Torus RM20 power conditioner, which improved the sound, but night time still sounds better. I suspect the RFI is still the issue. I have my ER connected directly to my modem. Is there a way to shield my system better? Add another ER? Use optical connection? 

[Superdad]

40 minutes ago, chungjh said:

I have heard many comments about how streamed music sounds better at night.

That's interesting. This is the first time I have read someone say that; but then again I am not streaming on a high-end system (just playing local files).

 

Certainly it has been known for decades that audio systems seem to sound better late at night. And I experienced that myself. I have always attributed it to a couple of factors:

 

1) Wall voltage is often higher and more stable at night; And for analog power amplifiers--which most always have an unregulated power supply (power amps with fully regulated PS are very rare)--changes in input voltage are pretty easy to hear.

 

2) Human hearing seems more sensitive at night; Probably combination of it being quieter--so noise floor drops and our hearing "comes up" (kind of like eyesight dark adaption to see stars when there are no other lights to keep our pupils from full dilating); Evolution: Our hearing is more sensitive to sounds of predators that might lurk.

 

So honestly I am not sure/not convinced that what you are hearing during the day is actually coming into the streaming/digital part of your system. I suspect it is due to one of the above factors.

 

All that said, we do have Lumin X1 owners using the optical/SFP connection from the EtherREGEN to good effect. But again, not sure that will change how you feel about day/night listening.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

[chungjh]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

That's interesting. This is the first time I have read someone say that; but then again I am not streaming on a high-end system (just playing local files).

 

Certainly it has been known for decades that audio systems seem to sound better late at night. And I experienced that myself. I have always attributed it to a couple of factors:

 

1) Wall voltage is often higher and more stable at night; And for analog power amplifiers--which most always have an unregulated power supply (power amps with fully regulated PS are very rare)--changes in input voltage are pretty easy to hear.

 

2) Human hearing seems more sensitive at night; Probably combination of it being quieter--so noise floor drops and our hearing "comes up" (kind of like eyesight dark adaption to see stars when there are no other lights to keep our pupils from full dilating); Evolution: Our hearing is more sensitive to sounds of predators that might lurk.

 

So honestly I am not sure/not convinced that what you are hearing during the day is actually coming into the streaming/digital part of your system. I suspect it is due to one of the above factors.

 

All that said, we do have Lumin X1 owners using the optical/SFP connection from the EtherREGEN to good effect. But again, not sure that will change how you feel about day/night listening.

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.

In audiogon discussion, there are a number of blogs on this topic. Some people hear the decline in music quality when their neighbors come back from vacation. I think it is a real phenomenon. AM radio stations are forced to turn down their power after 10 pm. I think this may be the most likely possibility. The question is , if this is the case, what can one do? @Superdad, do you think a second ER can get rid of the noise the first ER was not able to? How about a Faraday cage for the stereo system?