UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Listening Impressions

[LowMidHigh]

4 hours ago, jandersonhill said:

 

I would agree. I haven't had a chance to fully comment, but the ER compares very well with two SotM's in series. I believe the SotM has a slight edge (more so with their external clock), but we're then comparing products in a completely different price bracket and doing this well at this price point is an absurdly great achievement.

 

Those reports, including yours, might as well be true, but I take them with a grain of salt.

Audiophiles are notorious to be influenced by cost. "The more expensive, the better it sounds.," a consumer biase many unscrupulous vendors take advantage of.

I'll wait for the blind tests, thank you very much.

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

I'll wait for the blind tests, thank you very much.

 

Hi Guy:

Have you done any with your EtherREGEN unit?

Oh wait, wrong forum. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

--Alex C.

 

[skatbelt]

46 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Those reports, including yours, might as well be true, but I take them with a grain of salt.

Audiophiles are notorious to be influenced by cost. "The more expensive, the better it sounds.," a consumer biase many unscrupulous vendors take advantage of.

I'll wait for the blind tests, thank you very much.

 

While I basically agree with you, the other way around is also the case: people who cannot afford or think something to be out-of-proportion expensive tend to question the added value or superiority of such products.

[skatbelt]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Thanks for pointing that out. And the nice first point that he made, in comparisons in about a $250,000 system, is:

 

"1. ER is an over-achiever for sure. And it is better than all audiophile switches below or at around its price."

 

So versus the $1,700 SoTM switch--which he uses two of--I'd say our modest offering came out smelling great! 

 

We have also received e-mails from others (in Europe) putting us on top. And there will be some lengthier formal comparative reviews coming in the next month or so.

 

What I found noticeable in this comparison is that - according to this group of people - it is better to leave the standard supplied SMPS untouched and use a proper LPS. Unlike what you promote Alex.

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Guy:

Have you done any with your EtherREGEN unit?

Oh wait, wrong forum. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

--Alex C.

 

 

Perhaps I mispresented my point. I was referring to the ER vs. SoTM, not to the efficacy as the ER as a whole. In that context, I'd like to see an unsigned comparison. 

 

But since you've raised the question, I'll share that I indeed blind-tested the ER. 

 

My dear one randomly removed and added the switch to my chain behind my back. We used the same 2 reference tracks. Results: 9/10, which is good enough for me to wholeheartedly endorse your product. 

 

Now, please stop wasting time in forums and devote yourself to adapting your Mini Mac kit to the 2018 version

[firedog]

On 12/5/2019 at 1:53 PM, Jud said:

One of my favorites for listening tests, because it's short, simple, emphasizes vocals, and this time it's something pretty much everyone has heard: The Beatles' "I'll Follow the Sun."

 

Somehow Paul and John made their harmonies sound like no one else's. The voices so very similar, but just that bit of difference....

Funny, I use "Words of Love" from the same album - the handclaps (do they sound like real claps or just percussion?) and the ringing of the guitar are great ways to test how good a system is. 

[BigAlMc]

16 hours ago, McNulty said:

Comparison of ER with full option SoTM switches here: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/sotm-snh-10g-network-switches-x2-the-new-king-of-usb-network-gadget-setup.27758/page-12

 

I think there are a few interesting things here. Firstly, if we park the considerable price difference between ER and a fully tricked out SoTM then some will read this and opt for the SoTM. That's not intended in any way to disparage the considerable achievement that is the ER. Just acknowledging the trend in this hobby to chase absolute perfection.

 

Tho if you dive down that rabbit hole then you need 2 x SoTM switches and the price differential becomes 6 times rather than 3 😂Yeah, I'm sticking with my ER!

 

Second interesting aspect is that the ER and SoTM don't reportedly blend well and compliment each other.

 

Third for me is the finding that the ER does indeed benefit from a better PSU. (Fairly amazed there hasn't been more on this here tbh!). Intriguingly @CKKeung has clarified that he was advocating the LPS-1.2 as further improving the ER.

 

I'll add testing this to my backlog of tests and tasks. New firmware etc. But am hoping for some reports here on this.

 

Final comment relates to the Dutch switch shootout, rather than our Hong Kong friends, where the SoTM was highly rated but not by big margins. Struggling to get my head around this as the ER has a very significant impact in my system, others say the same for the SoTM. But the difference isn't huge compared to other switches. Huh? Confusing data point but well done to them for taking the time to do this. Ditto to CKKeung for his efforts.

 

Be interesting to see other head to head comparisons.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[LowMidHigh]

On 12/7/2019 at 12:51 AM, BigAlMc said:

 

I think there are a few interesting things here. Firstly, if we park the considerable price difference between ER and a fully tricked out SoTM then some will read this and opt for the SoTM. That's not intended in any way to disparage the considerable achievement that is the ER. Just acknowledging the trend in this hobby to chase absolute perfection.

 

Tho if you dive down that rabbit hole then you need 2 x SoTM switches and the price differential becomes 6 times rather than 3 😂Yeah, I'm sticking with my ER!

 

Second interesting aspect is that the ER and SoTM don't reportedly blend well and compliment each other.

 

Third for me is the finding that the ER does indeed benefit from a better PSU. (Fairly amazed there hasn't been more on this here tbh!). Intriguingly @CKKeung has clarified that he was advocating the LPS-1.2 as further improving the ER.

 

I'll add testing this to my backlog of tests and tasks. New firmware etc. But am hoping for some reports here on this.

 

Final comment relates to the Dutch switch shootout, rather than our Hong Kong friends, where the SoTM was highly rated but not by big margins. Struggling to get my head around this as the ER has a very significant impact in my system, others say the same for the SoTM. But the difference isn't huge compared to other switches. Huh? Confusing data point but well done to them for taking the time to do this. Ditto to CKKeung for his efforts.

 

Be interesting to see other head to head comparisons.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

How about applying a different logic?

 

Since so many users of the ER are content with the supplied SMPS—people with both the means and drive to maximize the performance of their systems—perhaps we should be weary of that HH sighted evaluation? Or put bluntly, perhaps their observations are biased? 

 

I personally take it as a red flag and thus don’t put much trust in the rest of their findings.

[BigAlMc]

Yup. Fair points.

 

To be clear I'm not trying to prove or challenge anything. But personally I have an unused LPS-1.2 sitting on my rack. Unused because it was powering my Aqvox switch which has been so comprehensively replaced by the ER. So it's a no brainer for me to try that experiment. Am guessing others will be in a similar situation so hoping for their observations.

 

Bigger picture the ER is in its infancy as a brand new product so any shared knowledge and experience that helps find optimal performance are welcome.

 

That said I'm in no rush to even install the firmware as its sounding so damn good already 😀

[McNulty]

Hi @BigAlMc, a possible explanation for the difference in SQ gap between the Hong Kong and Netherlands test could be that first test used the full options version of the SoTM (list price $ 1,900) including external clocking and the second test used the basic version (list price $ 800) with the standard power supply (not the SPS-500). Also the Dutch test was a blind test and the HK seems to be sighted.

[BigAlMc]

7 minutes ago, McNulty said:

Hi @BigAlMc, a possible explanation for the difference in SQ gap between the Hong Kong and Netherlands test could be that first test used the full options version of the SoTM (list price $ 1,900) including external clocking and the second test used the basic version (list price $ 800) with the standard power supply (not the SPS-500). Also the Dutch test was a blind test and the HK seems to be sighted.

 

Ah, I missed that the Dutch one was basic Sotm switch and PSU. My experience with SoTM kit is it really needs a decent PSU. Also read the difference between basic and tricked out SoTM switch is night and day.

 

Explains a lot.

[nonesup]

42 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Yup. Fair points.

 

To be clear I'm not trying to prove or challenge anything. But personally I have an unused LPS-1.2 sitting on my rack. Unused because it was powering my Aqvox switch which has been so comprehensively replaced by the ER. So it's a no brainer for me to try that experiment. Am guessing others will be in a similar situation so hoping for their observations.

 

Bigger picture the ER is in its infancy as a brand new product so any shared knowledge and experience that helps find optimal performance are welcome.

 

That said I'm in no rush to even install the firmware as its sounding so damn good already 😀

Same configuration here.  Aqvox is powered by LPS 1.2, but I don't energize it with the SMTP, but with a Kenneth Lau LPS.  My first test will be to remove the Aqvox and put ER in exactly the same configuration.  Later I can do other tests.

[Summit]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Third for me is the finding that the ER does indeed benefit from a better PSU. (Fairly amazed there hasn't been more on this here tbh!). Intriguingly @CKKeung has clarified that he was advocating the LPS-1.2 as further improving the ER.

 

Let me ask you one question, which audio gear doesn’t benefit from a better PSU?

[k-man]

“The internal power network in the switch will be extremely good, the result is that there should be no advantage to using an LPS-1.2.“

 

That was JS’s quote from last year in the original post. I believe that is why @BigAlMc was surprised at his own findings.

For others without a spare LPS 1.2, I would hesitate recommending one for an extra $435 and follow the manufacturer’s recommendation.

[Summit]

10 minutes ago, k-man said:

“The internal power network in the switch will be extremely good, the result is that there should be no advantage to using an LPS-1.2.“

 

That was JS’s quote from last year in the original post. I believe that is why @BigAlMc was surprised at his own findings.

For others without a spare LPS 1.2, I would hesitate recommending one for an extra $435 and follow the manufacturer’s recommendation.

 

My experience is that all audio gear benefit from better PSUs. The lower the “quality” of the PSU has the bigger is the improvement and it was why I asked which audio gear doesn’t benefit from a better PSU, as I have not tested all gear and that includes ER?

 

I will get my ER soon and will of course test and hear for myself.

[Evo1668]

Well I decided the other night to move my Nucleus+ to be closer to my ER and Streamer - As a result of this I also moved my JS2 which was powering the Nucleus. So now my Nucleus is connected directly to one of the ER “A” side ports (50cm AQ Vodka cable) -wow definitely improves the sound - even less congestion - result! 
 

Having a spare outlet on the JS2 - seemed silly not to try it at 12V straight into the ER.....double wow! I didn’t think you could strip any more haze from the window into the music - you most definitely can - the dynamics are even way better. I’ll have to try switching back to the stock PSU on the ER, to try and quantify what the ER is adding versus Nucleus being closer to the ER, but I’m loathed to change anything at the moment.  
 

I know Alex/John say a better PSU over stock is not needed - but in my configuration/system I would have to pop my head out the trench and disagree. 

[oilpaint]

Has anyone found SQ differences using different voltages (7-12)?

[BigAlMc]

30 minutes ago, Evo1668 said:

Well I decided the other night to move my Nucleus+ to be closer to my ER and Streamer - As a result of this I also moved my JS2 which was powering the Nucleus. So now my Nucleus is connected directly to one of the ER “A” side ports (50cm AQ Vodka cable) -wow definitely improves the sound - even less congestion - result! 
 

Having a spare outlet on the JS2 - seemed silly not to try it at 12V straight into the ER.....double wow! I didn’t think you could strip any more haze from the window into the music - you most definitely can - the dynamics are even way better. I’ll have to try switching back to the stock PSU on the ER, to try and quantify what the ER is adding versus Nucleus being closer to the ER, but I’m loathed to change anything at the moment.  
 

I know Alex/John say a better PSU over stock is not needed - but in my configuration/system I would have to pop my head out the trench and disagree. 

 

Nicely played and great that it worked. Two improvements without spending a cent/penny is a great days work!

 

Encouraged to get my lazy ass in gear and play around. But what can I say. I'm enjoying listening to the music too much to have to listen to the SQ 😉

[BigAlMc]

On 12/7/2019 at 6:08 AM, Evo1668 said:

 

I know Alex/John say a better PSU over stock is not needed - but in my configuration/system I would have to pop my head out the trench and disagree. 

Also, and sponsored forum or not I'm gonna say it, Alex and John have an agenda here. Not selling the PSUs they know we're all gonna buy 😜

 

And before anyone jumps on me that's a joke. I don't doubt their sincerity that the performance with the stock (JS ground shunt incorporated) PSU is already terrific.

[jandersonhill]

3 hours ago, Abyss Man said:

May I know where its says that 2 sotm switches were used against a single ER? Just curious that all, cause I couldn't see where that was mentioned. I mean no harm. Thank you sir.

No harm done, my previous comments comparing the two were my own findings comparing two SotM’s with an ER. By the way, I found the three combined to be even better, although that combo might appear borderline ridiculous!

[stevebythebay]

2 hours ago, Evo1668 said:

Well I decided the other night to move my Nucleus+ to be closer to my ER and Streamer - As a result of this I also moved my JS2 which was powering the Nucleus. So now my Nucleus is connected directly to one of the ER “A” side ports (50cm AQ Vodka cable) -wow definitely improves the sound - even less congestion - result! 
 

Having a spare outlet on the JS2 - seemed silly not to try it at 12V straight into the ER.....double wow! I didn’t think you could strip any more haze from the window into the music - you most definitely can - the dynamics are even way better. I’ll have to try switching back to the stock PSU on the ER, to try and quantify what the ER is adding versus Nucleus being closer to the ER, but I’m loathed to change anything at the moment.  
 

I know Alex/John say a better PSU over stock is not needed - but in my configuration/system I would have to pop my head out the trench and disagree. 

Nice to hear that you've found this configuration to be stellar.  My plan is to add the JS-2 to support my Roon Nucleus and eR as soon as Alex can get one to me.

 

What this tells me is that whoever seeks to do a comparison of switches really must keep things as simple, network-wise, as possible, for an apples to apples comparison.  We've all noted the potential for noise, including EMI/RFI, capacitive and galvanic coupling, to affect the overall signal and resulting SQ. 

 

Ideally source - Ethernet - switch - Ethernet - DAC as well as using the same Ethernet cabling design (Cat6a for instance) and manufacturer model would be ideal. 

 

Involving additional links in the chain is likely to introduce a level of complexity that may mask the benefits of one switch over another.  Please note that I'm aiming for pure comparison.  We all have different environments to deal with in the real world.  So as we all know - your mileage may vary...

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

Also, and sponsored forum or not I'm gonna say it, Alex and John have an agenda here. Not selling the PSUs they know we're all gonna buy 😜

And before anyone jumps on me that's a joke. I don't doubt their sincerity that the performance with the stock (JS ground shunt incorporated) PSU is already terrific.

 

Well that was our point. It’s a matter of degrees.

Arbitrary scale: If an EtherREGEN with its stock supply is +9 points, and powering it with an LPS adds 1 more point—for people with crazy sensitive systems and ears—then I think you can understand why we deemphasize the need for an upgraded supply.

We don’t want people to think that they won’t get to enjoy the special qualities of the EtherREGEN unless the spend more. As so many of you have found out, our switch does most of its ‘magic’ right out of the box.

And I was honest in saying that in my system, while I very much hear the difference with the ER, I hear almost no difference powering it from either of our two fine linear supplies.

 

59 minutes ago, Summit said:

 I want to see it. Please post a picture with all three combined.

 

You guys are wacky! 

 

But more seriously:

I often worry that those few who take things to the extreme—sometimes with tweaks so out there they stretch credulity—will scare off the more average audiophile from trying and enjoying our modest and effective boxes. (Though the steady stream of orders should allay that concern! )

UpTone is interested in delivering as much of an obvious “wow” improvement as possible—at as low a cost as we can. Still, we flattered by so many people incorporating our devices into their six-figure systems.

 

We are really looking forward to this next wave of EtherREGENs being delivered and installed by all the “second-batch” buyers in the coming week. (Crazy when I realize that even these units are still just to people who ordered in the first 40 minutes of the launch.)

Good times ahead...

[elan120]

17 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Well that was our point. It’s a matter of degrees.

Arbitrary scale: If an EtherREGEN with its stock supply is +9 points, and powering it with an LPS adds 1 more point—for people with crazy sensitive systems and ears—then I think you can understand why we deemphasize the need for an upgraded supply.

We don’t want people to think that they won’t get to enjoy the special qualities of the EtherREGEN unless the spend more. As so many of you have found out, our switch does most of its ‘magic’ right out of the box.

And I was honest in saying that in my system, while I very much hear the difference with the ER, I hear almost no difference powering it from either of our two fine linear supplies.

Very good way to describe it.  There is some improvement to be gained by using LPS-1.2 but using the stock power supply is already very good, and certainly not making the change for LPS a necessity.  In my system, I do hear another small lift in SQ using LPS-1.2 as well as other LPS, and adding the ground wire also help the playback a bit more dynamic and improve in silkiness.

[Summit]

On 12/7/2019 at 9:14 AM, Superdad said:

 

Well that was our point. It’s a matter of degrees.

Arbitrary scale: If an EtherREGEN with its stock supply is +9 points, and powering it with an LPS adds 1 more point—for people with crazy sensitive systems and ears—then I think you can understand why we deemphasize the need for an upgraded supply.

We don’t want people to think that they won’t get to enjoy the special qualities of the EtherREGEN unless the spend more. As so many of you have found out, our switch does most of its ‘magic’ right out of the box.

And I was honest in saying that in my system, while I very much hear the difference with the ER, I hear almost no difference powering it from either of our two fine linear supplies.

 

 

You guys are wacky! 

 

But more seriously:

I often worry that those few who take things to the extreme—sometimes with tweaks so out there they stretch credulity—will scare off the more average audiophile from trying and enjoying our modest and effective boxes. (Though the steady stream of orders should allay that concern! )

UpTone is interested in delivering as much of an obvious “wow” improvement as possible—at as low a cost as we can. Still, we flattered by so many people incorporating our devices into their six-figure systems.

 

We are really looking forward to this next wave of EtherREGENs being delivered and installed by all the “second-batch” buyers in the coming week. (Crazy when I realize that even these units are still just to people who ordered in the first 40 minutes of the launch.)

Good times ahead...

 

Wacky? I can’t say I like to be called that. Passionate and maybe obsessed about small sound quality difference that “normal people” doesn’t care about, yes. TBH if someone is not really passionate about obtaining perfect sound, why bother with an audio grade switch? Only 2 years ago I got ridiculed because I used I LPS in my router here on AS/CA, and it was not by the usual suspect.

 

Yes some people have audio gear that cost very much. I believe that to get good and realistic sound the whole audio system has to be tip top and unfortunately it cost very much IMO. With that said I would not start building an audio system by getting an audio switch, fancy PSU or SOTA cables. I would always start with the transducer and work my way up the chain with matching amp, DAC and source before worrying about gear further upstream.

 

It just how I do it though 🙂

[Superdad]

45 minutes ago, Summit said:

Wacky? I can’t say I like to be called that. Passionate and maybe obsessed about small sound quality difference that “normal people” doesn’t care about, yes. TBH if someone is not really passionate about obtaining perfect sound, why bother with an audio grade switch? Only 2 years ago I got ridiculed because I used I LPS in my router here on AS/CA, and it was not by the usual suspect.

 

No offense intended. In fact, if it were not for all the passionate people here--pushing at the edge and trying everything to further improve their music reproduction systems--John and I would not have been inspired to think about and design solutions that strike at the root causes of these issues. 

(The active differential isolation moat and reclocking at the core of EtherREGEN being just the most recent example.)

So please keep experimenting and be as "wacky" as you wish. That's where great ideas derive from.