UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Listening Impressions

[Puma Cat]

My EtherREGEN arrived just before 6 PM last night; set it up with a minor change to my prior configuration. 

 

Here was my configuration prior to the arrival of ER using my Pace router* w/ 4 RJ45 ports† that function an "Ethernet switch".

 

Bedroom/Study: Mac Mini/Roon Core->copper Ethernet->Pace router->copper Ethernet->TP-link FMC w/ Sonore SOPT-specification optical tranceiver->Tripp-Lite OM-1 LC/LC fiber running direct from study to main audio rack in living room.

 

Living Room/Main Audio Rack:

Fiber (from bedroom/study) -> Sonore Optical Module -> copper Ethernet-> SOtM UltraNeo network bridge->USB cable->Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC††.

Gotta say, this setup sounded pretty dang good, however....

 

New configuration (with changes bolded/italicized):

 

Bedroom/Study:

Mac Mini/Roon Core->copper Ethernet->Pace router->copper Ethernet->Optical Module->Tripp-Lite OM-1 LC/LC fiber running to main audio rack.

Living Room/Main Audio Rack:

Fiber (from bedroom/study) -> ER using SFP/optical transceiver on A-side -> copper Ethernet on ER B-side-> SOtM UltraNeo network bridge->USB cable->Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC††.

 

(all Ethernet cables are Shunyata Sigma; USB cable is Shunyata Alpha USB) 
 

First impressions right  out of the box last night....

Listening to Kenny Burrell's “Saturday Night Blues” on the Midnight Blue (24/192Khz) album, and I can I can hear the "reflection" of Kenny's guitar off the far wall in the recording studio...his guitar is on the left, and I can the secondary reflection of his guitar off the opposite, right wall in the room they were playing in…whoa. 😲

 

Most of what I notice is lower noise floor, a quieter, and more natural presentation with improved imaging spacious, definition and "clarity" (e.g. hearing the secondary reflection of Kenny's guitar off the opposite wall in the recording studio). And this is with <90 minutes of burn-in time.

 

Never heard the secondary reflection off the opposite wall from Kenny's guitar before...

 

I fully agree with KennyB  that a significant portion of this the audible improvements is due to a notable reduction in clock phase noise.

 

* – the Pace router has the SMPS ground strap shunt for shunting high-impedance leakage currents for its SMPS that John posted about in another thread a while back) 

 

†– I also have a TP-Link Ethernet switch, but it turned out using the RJ45 jacks in the Pace router sounded notably better than the TP-Link Ethernet switch, which is why I use the RJ45 ports on the Pace router. Go figure.

 

†† – OM powered by Uptone Audio LPS-1.2 w/ Shunyata Venom V14 Digital power cable. SOtM is powered  Keces P3 linear power supply w/ Shunyata Venom V14 Digital power cable. DAC powered by Shunyata Venom NR-V12 power cable.

 

Hope this helps, and more later count on it...I found I needed about 72hrs of burn-in with Optical Module, and then it came fully on-song. 

 

[Puma Cat]

20 minutes ago, thyname said:

‘Sure. But that would not matter much upstream, when the EtherRegen is downstream, would it?

It doesn't matter to a large degree, but replacing TP-link with the OM resulted in a notable audible improvement. I attribute no small part of this to the reduced clock phase noise from the superior femto clocks in the OM relative to those in the TP-link FMC. This just means that the digital "thumbprint" that John has referred to coming that is coming out of the OM and going into ER is cleaner & sharper than the one from the TP-link. 

 

This is same reason that other Ethernet switch mfrs. (who shall remain nameless) have found using a number of their Ethernet switches in series results in improved sound quality. 

 

 

 

[Puma Cat]

3 hours ago, Jud said:

I've now hooked up the production model and had a brief listen. This reminded me of some other things I noticed about the ER:

 

- Bass seems less muddy. Notes instead of rumble on some tracks with low bass. Multiple instruments and/or vocals seem less congested.

 

- On the bass end, the combination of image solidity, the more "integrated" instrumental sound, and less muddiness combine for greater low end impact.

 

- At the high end, more "integrated" instrumental sound, greater image solidity and less congestion translate to a sense of overall clarity and less harshness.

I agree on all points. 

 

There is also more "listening ease" in the presentation; sounds more organic and natural, and thus, engaging. The imaging and soundstage are notably better and this is quite noticeable with symphonic classical music; the hall ambience is also more clearly defined and textured. 

[Puma Cat]

56 minutes ago, so-no-mah said:

 You can listen at lower volumes without losing information.

Yes,  you can.  👍 I noticed this right away last night. 

[Puma Cat]

I've spent the evening listening to a broad selection of full symphonic classical music, everything from Joaquin Rodrigo's Concerto de Andaluz and Fantasia para un Gentilhombre to Aaron Copland's Applachian Spring, and ER is performing wonderfully. 

 

There is an accurate and mellifluous presentation of hall ambience, spaciousness, depth, width, and instrumental imaging, separation. and definition. Timpani produce incredible dynamics  and scale, and the individual instrumental timbres are detailed and lifelike. I can hear and place individual instruments at the back of the orchestra with respect to placement, volume (loudness), texture and scale. The listening ease that ER imparts makes it enjoyable to listening to a range of different mic-ing, recording, and mastering for the various performances. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Yes, the server is on the A-side.

 

The EtherRegen completely crushes the myth that an ultra clean ethernet source isolating the endpoint and DAC from upstream pollution will act as prophylactic for downstream devices.  Instead it appears to be the opposite making it easier to hear upstream enhancements downstream.

 

 

I dunno...its very early days yet; most ERs are not fully burned-in yet as the first shipments just arrived last week. Also, there's lots of different components and, more to the point, system configurations that are possible  that introduce lots of variables. In fact, I can't think of another component in a digital streaming configuration than an Ethernet switch that could be used in so many different types of configurations. 

 

In my personal view, its too early to draw any definitive conclusions of what ER does or does not do with respect to its possible interaction in the context of a multitude of possible configurations, and thereby, its influence on overall system audio reproduction and presentation as it relates to those other streaming components, and where they are, in the overall chain (e.g. NAS', routers, streamers, FMCs, power supplies, and...yoiks! Ethernet cables). 

 

What I can say, though, is it sounds really, really good. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Yes, the server is on the A-side.

 

The EtherRegen completely crushes the myth that an ultra clean ethernet source isolating the endpoint and DAC from upstream pollution will act as prophylactic for downstream devices.  Instead it appears to be the opposite making it easier to hear upstream enhancements downstream.

 

 

The other thing I'm confident that will be very important as we suss out how to most effectively use ER is to be thoughtful and systematic of how it is implemented in these various configurations, and take thorough notes so we can build up a knowledge base that can be used for defining its most effective use for specific applications. 

[Puma Cat]

With all due respect to the gang, with the multitude of ways that ER could be used, I'm hoping that the thread doesn't stray off-topic to the point where we're trying to discuss how many angels can dance of the head of a pin. 

 

There's many different ways that ER can be deployed into a digital streaming configuration, simply due to the multitude of ways that everyone's system is configured. My suggestion: Think about the ways one can best utilize ER in one's system/configuration and perform systematic experiments to determine what works best in your own use-case. Let things "settle" after re-configuring, live with it for some days or weeks, and take notes. I know I've got at least two different configurations that I expect will work really well and a third that may be interesting to try just to add more "data to the database".

[Puma Cat]

14 hours ago, PYP said:

Just curious:  when folks state the number of hours in the system, do you mean powered up or are you playing music through the ER continuously?  

Playing music through ER continuously. 

[Puma Cat]

10 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

It sounds as though Jud tried but abandoned using the optical port as the downstream one for sound quality reasons.  Is anyone else connecting a device through an SFP module and, if so, how are you feeling about the ER in that application?  I ask because I have an optical rendu now connected to the network with a Sonore optical module that I would switch to another system if the ER is an upgrade of the magnitude this thread suggests it is.

Yes. My configuration is below. I observed a notable improvement in audio quality when adding ER to my main rack, using the SFP module on the A-side, and replacing a TP-link SFP FMC with my Optical Module in the bedroom/study. Scroll up to page 2 to review my listening impression notes. 

 

Bedroom/Study:

Mac Mini/Roon Core->copper Ethernet->Pace router->copper Ethernet->Optical Module->Tripp-Lite OM-1 LC/LC fiber running to main audio rack.

Living Room/Main Audio Rack:

Fiber (from bedroom/study) -> ER using SFP/optical transceiver on A-side -> copper Ethernet on ER B-side-> SOtM UltraNeo network bridge->USB cable->Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC

[Puma Cat]

47 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Won’t dwell on medical stuff, though I had a gout attack last Wednesday on my left big toe, I’m still recovering from…though it did keep me on the couch listening to the EtherREGEN break-in.  And break-in it really did.  I’m glad I raised this break-in question on the forum with Alex, as it proved to be very, very true.

I was initially uncertain about how much better replacing my existing Cisco 2960 would turn out to be.  I’d done my best to mitigate all digital and analogue related noise coming from devices, and passing along to others, along with using whatever cabling and interconnects that would prevent pickup or passing of electrical or other mysterious crap.  My config. is as simple as I can make it with Roon player and Eero WiF wired to the ER while the “B” port going to dCS gear.  That’s it.

However, after plugging in the ER there was no immediate and obvious change in SQ for my Roon local music playing.  However I did notice that OTA streaming of even low quality radio, let alone FLAC music from Radio Paradise, improved nicely.  However, that’s upstairs cable modem to Eero WiFi access point,  then to another Eero co-located with the downstairs audio system and wired into the ER.  Caveat: the Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cables incorporate technology to mitigate both signal and high frequency noise distortion.  That's what's wired between the Roon, ER, and DAC components So, no immediate revelations from what the ER would come to reveal.

After 24 hours of playing music w/o the amps turned on, I found a very dramatic change when I finally got around to hitting the switches on the amps and doing any critical listening.

Replacing the Cisco 2960 with the EtherREGEN results in separating the wheat from the chaff - the overall sound level seems louder.  This must be some psycho acoustic effect.  Background is blacker, and sonic decay lingers on, along with much clearer sense of the sonic space surrounding instruments and singers.  

I agree with Jud’s perception of how the ER really started “opening up”.  Clearly lines between all elements of the sonic picture came into a much clearer separation in all areas - location in space, size, realism, etc.  Even listening to live performance the audience seemed more “real” and clearly hearing members shout out things I’d failed to pick up on in the past.

And everything Puma Cat has stated I hear as well.  The palpable nature of live playing, especially percussion in attack and decay are very evident.  But it goes way beyond that to what others have heard: fretwork on guitars, reed instruments that just seem far more realistic, and the piano is just so right and clearly displayed.  I’ve just begun listening to the same piece played by different pianists in solo just to capture their style and how the recordings were miked and engineered.  Already very revealing.

By keeping things simple in my chain the ER can reveal just how great it is as more than an ideal switch.

Will be fascinating to read John’s technical brief when it arrives.  Hoping he can help provide the laymen among us with what the actual effect that results from the many wiz bang elements he’s put into the ER.  

As for all of us who are sharing, I agree with Puma Cat re: the diverse nature of our systems.  Best we can hope for is just a subjective reaction to before/after the addition of the ER, making one simple change.  Too many changes and you’re uncertain what really affected what.

Always feel when I’ve made a positive change in my whole listening environment the result is greater “ease” in listening.  Simply great pleasure and pulls me into the performance rather than showing off.  On the other hand the ER can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear: bad recordings will stick out like a sore thumb that much more.  I’ve already experienced that with numerous albums in my collection.  But then I focus on the performance…

Examples of listening sessions:

Sgt. Peppers - uncluttered and quiet with Ringo’s drumming unpacked; all of the micro details exposed.

Jimi Hendrix - Electric Ladyland - phase experiments revealed; Voodoo Child - Jimi’s guitar fully realized; Gypsy Eyes shows off black background and allows exposure of all micro details; all around spatial expansion width/depth/height and precise size and placement of instruments & vocalists; Voodoo Child (slight return) even better showing off many of these attributes).

Sorry for the rather lengthy post...

 

Good post! My personal findings, listening to a lot of full-scale classical symphonic content last night are very concordant with yours, Steve.  👍

 

Agree with Steve that ER starts to show its stuff with ~24 hours burn-in. Sunday night was a notably different and improved experience over Saturday night. If my hypothesis holds, by ~72 hours of burn-in, should be "up on the cam, and hitting on all cylinders", to use an aphorism from motor racing. 

[Puma Cat]

48 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

Well it sounds really good already so if the etherREGEN can improve it by just a little bit I am happy with that.

 

I hope Alex will ship it in the coming days so perhaps early next week I will have it in my system.

I'll bet it already sounds really good;  you've got a superb system there. Love the TAD gear and dCS digital components. 

[Puma Cat]

4 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

 

I would be curious what the opticalModule into etherRegen sounds like. 

Go back and read my comments/impressions on page 2 (IIRC)....

[Puma Cat]

27 minutes ago, soares said:

Confirmed, at least in my system. The oM improves the SQ of eR. I am just using a Jameco and immediately you see a jump in what concerns SQ. So I will keep my oM. Will try as soon as possible a fiber connection between the two.

if you think the OM is good with the Jameco, ya gotta try it with the Uptone Audio LPS-1.2. The LPS-1.2 takes it to another level altogether. 

[Puma Cat]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

All they are asking for is any kind of objective evidence to support the claims or explanations proposed here. That's how real science works. Blind faith that one's perception and senses are infallible is the direct equivalent of a flat earther, whose world view is rooted in this exact belief.

There are lots of things that we know to be real that reductionist science cannot explain.

 

For example, the sensation of being stared at....

 

Continuing with the science theme, Physics has no particle that that fits with the Standard Model  for gravity...but we all know that gravity is real. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, wwc said:

There's a lot of talk about cooking the eR.   I sounds like most are experiencing changes with time.  Alex and John, is this what you expect with this tech in a switch?

 

And in cooking referring to simply powered up or actually running data through the eR into the dac?

Running data through the ER. Though this question would best be served by being posted in the Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread rather than the Listening Impressions thread. 

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, nonesup said:

I remember reading on WBT that when they tried two Sotm Switch cascade, the best sound was obtained when joined by fiber, not copper.

That's very likely due to the fact that the upstream SOtM switch was passing leakage currents down to the downstream switch. A run of optical fiber in-between would prevent that. 

[Puma Cat]

7 hours ago, EVOLVIST said:

 

Like what could be masking it? I'm going from the modem directly to the ER which feeds right into my DAC/streamer. That's the optimal textbook config of how the ER should work. According to the design, nothing upstream of my modem should have any bearing on what comes after the ER. 

 

If you hear a difference, cool. Money well spent, right? 

I think the possible reason you didn't hear a difference/improvement with ER is because the Linn is just...SO DAMN GOOD. I mean, just look at the engineering specification of the K/DS3: the K/DS3 uses Linn's Katalyst Digital to Analog architecture, brings multiple isolated power supplies, a high-precision master clock, careful optimisation of the data before conversion and a new low-distortion output driver stage.

 

This is clearly a world-class, state of the art streamer/network bridge.  Acc. to What HiFi? the best music streamer on the market, period.

 

Also, given that Linn has extensive experience in digital reproduction, from making superb recordings all the way through to digital streamers, players and DACs, its a safe bet that...these guys really know what they are doing when it comes to digital. 

 

My guess is the $20,000+ Linn K/DS3 manages jitter and phase noise so well that adding an ER may not bring anything discernable to the table with respect to sound-quality that the K/DS3 hasn't already got covered. 

[Puma Cat]

18 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Excellent, thanks! 

Funny how he makes this presumptive statement right at the top:

"The power supply is private branded but I am assuming that is just a sticker and UpTone has not really applied for FCC and regulator certification itself. This always puzzles me as companies like UpTone make a lot out of noise in audio yet they don't get their products (as required by law) certified for emissions per FCC or CE. For all you know the EtherRegen may be creating a ton of more high frequency noise ("EMI") than a cheap but certified Ethernet switch."

 

I have copies from our OEM SMPS supplier for all the certifications listed on the power supply, and the emissions from the EtherREGEN are as low or lower than most off the shelf switches.

 

Of course his entire review as well as the much more derisive 29 page thread @jtwrace started back in October is just more evidence of Amir and company's lack of intellectual curiosity about the principles behind the design of the EtherREGEN as well as the complete rejection of the reality that leakage, ground-plane noise, and clocking in packet data interfaces (USB and Ethernet) have effects on the I2S signals and clocking in connected DACs.

 

While I am sorry that Amir is unable to measure it with his beloved Audio Precision system, that does not change the fact that thousands of people readily hear these effects, both with UpTone products and others. They want you to not believe your ears and that you are delusional.

 

Really I am glad that someone loaned him a unit. The bright line has been drawn. He can not measure what we all can hear. (The fact that he heard nothing speaks more broadly to how and what he listens with--as evidenced in his other reviews--but that is a personal matter for him.)

Perhaps John will have luck showing some effects with his Wavecrest analyzer, but regardless of what we put forth, I expect only more scorn and ridicule from the ASR camp.

 

In the meantime, I just received a long report from a group of very dedicated European audiophiles who conducted some blind trials of a variety of switches.  No surprise that it was followed by a flood of new EtherREGEN orders and some e-mails begging to get them into the now sold-out January production batch. 

 

Amir is the worst type of "scientist" in that the underlying "principles" (if you could call them that) utlized at ASR are not real science (like the kind of science I did in my career & published multiple times as a first author in journals like Science, The Proceedings of the National Academy of the Sciences, Journal of Human Genetics, et. al.) but rather a specious manifestion of "pseudo-science" along the lines of Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lamarck). 

[Puma Cat]

On 12/14/2019 at 5:34 PM, spotforscott said:

I have had the ER up and running now for 3 to 4 days and wanted to share my feedback.

 

In terms of setup, I could not the B side of the ER to work with my NUC because the NUC cannot accept 100mb speed (NUC issue, not and ER issue). So here is how it is connected in the chain:

ETHERNET: Router > SonicTransporter i7 > ER B side > A side > NUC 

SOURCE: NUC USB > Mscaler > Dual BNC > OptoDX > Dual BNC > Chord DAVE > HFC Trinity > Abyss TC (with Superconductor cable). PC and BNC's are full loom of HFC.

 

Also of note, ER replaces the Linear Solution Switch. Both the the previous switch and the ER are powered by an LPS 1.2.

 

I did not start to seriously listen until ER had 50 hours on it. I have listened to it for about 25 hours. I then put back the Linear Solutions switch for about 5 hours, then back to the ER again.

 

I had reasonable high hopes for the ER like others on this board but I have to say, it easily surpassed my expectations. I have tried many different things in my system over the past 2 to 3 years with various hits and misses along the way. Well the ER is NOT a miss, it's the "real deal". It's performance embarasses what I thought was a pretty good (Linear Solutions) switch.

 

First and foremost, it has noticably lowered the noise floor so that I hear more into the music - more detail and more life. It also seems to relax the music whilst maintaining speed. Also, if anything, it seems to contribute to more more musical density rather than thinning things out - like some components do.

 

Put simply, the ER makes it easier for to get more enjoyment out of my music

 

Thanks Alex and John, very well done!  

 

 

Nice review, and agreed on all points. 

[Puma Cat]

On 12/22/2019 at 4:14 PM, stevebythebay said:

Been my experience to date, at least with the eR, but have also found it true with other devices I've used, that removing power and then reconnecting power seems to have the effect of altering the workings of the device under test.  It just seems to take a bit of time, usually 1/2-1 hour to get everything stable again.  And that has an impact on SQ to one degree or another.  No clear idea why.

Its because the crystal oscillator in the clock has to come back up to temperature and stabiliize. When you disconnect power, it cools down. This is a key requirement for crystall oscillators to provide a maximal functional response.

 

Also, crystal oscillators are VERY sensitive to vibration so they benefit from mechanical decoupling from the surface, rack or cabinet they are on. I use Herbie's Tenderfeet under mine to good effect, removes some haze and and improves image "focus". 

[Puma Cat]

Alex and John at Uptone Audio are to be congratulated for their groundbreaking EtherREGEN and the excellent review at Hans Beekhuzen's YouTube channel. 

 

Hans says it like it is, and has considerable credibility in the audiophile community. 

 

Well done, guys! 

[Puma Cat]

Hey Gang,

In case you haven't seen it, Hans Beekhuzen has a superb video on "The Sound of Network Switches". This video does the best job, by far, that I've seen to date on why we can hear differences in Ethernet switches. 

 

Highly recommended viewing: https://youtu.be/BbRF8z8dQFU

[Puma Cat]

On 11/13/2020 at 11:41 AM, Superdad said:

PRODUCTION AND MISCELLANEOUS UPDATES:

 

Some here may have noticed that I have not been posting as much lately.  That's because these past few months have our busiest ever. Thanks to you all! 

 

Just last week subscribers of the print edition of The Absolute Sound received their December issue--in which appears a terrific multi-page review of EtherREGEN, written by none other than @Puma Cat (aka Stephen Scharf). As if the backlog of e-mail inquires was not already crushing, the has been a new wave into my inbox from TAS readers.

 

@JohnSwensonhas been working hard on the prototypes for several new projects we are collaborating on (not Ethernet products, so nothing that will supersede your EtherREGENs) and making good progress.

Yet most all my time has been focused on production, shipment and support of our current products. 

While the sheer quantity of new orders--for nearly every model--have be daunting, we continue to keep up and generally are managing to ship everyone's orders about a week ahead of scheduled/promised dates.  For example, all the EtherREGEN units promised for shipment by November 19th left here yesterday, November 12. And assuming FedEx does not delay delivery of EtherREGEN and ISO REGEN cases past this coming Monday, we will easily get out all the November 24th-promised goods by the 20th.

 

Below are some recent photos of the shop and production. JS-2s are labor intensive so it has not been easy to continue weaving 25 every 6 weeks alongside EtherREGEN production of hundreds.  (Neither a larger space nor more staffing are possible during the pandemic.)

 

I did finally decide to retire our 2001 AWD minivan--with 280,000 miles and a wildly unbalanced drive-shaft. Plane travel is not appealing anymore (actually never was for me), and although my wife and I used to enjoy camping we are at the age where a bed and bathroom are desirable. So we are buying a small travel trailer. I never saw myself buying a truck (I thought a Tesla Model Y was going to the first new car I ever bought), but that's where we ended up--for towing the new trailer. I refused to buy a planet-choking V8, and wanted something that felt like more like driving a car. So the independent rear suspension V6 Honda Ridgeline is where I ended up. Fun, sporty, and holds a lot of stuff! (Yes, that in-bed truck is large enough to discreetly move a body; our 19 year old son proved that by fitting himself in! ) In the mountains we'll be towing slowly but that's okay.

 

This is a tragic time worldwide with Covid19 rising. I am thankful for having our sons safe at home with us (in a county with few cases) and for the stability afforded us by the success of UpTone (my wife's non-profit environmental education organization has been in "hibernation" mode for most of the year; its survival uncertain). Still we feel awful for all that is happening--so we try to help by making donations, both domestically and internationally.

 

Wishing everyone well,

--Alex C.

 

 

 

Hi Alex,

 

Thanks for the update that the EtherREGEN review is out in the print issue of TAS for December, 2020. I haven't received my issue yet as I have a digital subscription (😉). Congrats on the new Honda Ridgeline, I have friends that own them and they are very, very happy with them. I've been driving and riding Honda Motor Co. products for the better part of 40 years, so I am big fan of the company. Enjoy your new wheels! 

 

All best,

Stephen

[Puma Cat]

3 hours ago, Vule said:

Just finished reading review in TAS. Great job done with review I personally found very detailed, comprehensive and informative.

Thank you. 

 

I put considerable effort into writing it. At over 4000 words, it was a LOT of work. Thanks also to Alex and John providing very informative technical design information to ensure I was describing the unique features and functionality of EtherREGEN accurately. The design embodiment and functionality of EtherREGEN goes "pretty deep" (trust me on this) but it results in a singularly excellent and unique product.