UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Listening Impressions

[LowMidHigh]

Has anyone tried this?

ER -> Mac Mini (or PC) -> DAC.

 

I wonder if feeding the Mac Mini the ER would make a SQ difference.

[LowMidHigh]

I was so dubious, so suspicious. 

 

I mean, my low-jitter system already hovers over the sublime. What could possibly improve it? I was certain that ER gizmo was going unceremoniously back to Alex.

 

Arrived. Connected. 

 

Immediate dropouts (stuttering), followed by degraded SQ. Glaring highs, anemic LF and distorted imaging. Yep, I was absolutely right, the ER sucks. Another audiophile sham, served with a generous helping of snake oil. Shipping it back for a refund.

 

Then, slowly and surely, the old liquidity resurfaced and bit-by-bit morphed into a sweet, thick molasses, better than before, enough to paint a big smile on my face. Awesome! Addictive!

 

You’ve nailed it, Alex and John. Well done.

 

ER|Ref10 --> Auralic G2 --> Mutech MC3+USB x 3 { Mutech Ref 10} --> Active monitors

 

P.S.: Pity the naysayers (yes, that’s you, ASR). Envy, grudge and narrow-mindedness have deprived them of a fantastic product. 

 

[LowMidHigh]

19 minutes ago, _JL_ said:

 

I have been using the UltraCap LPS 1.2 to power the ER. I will try using a more ordinary LPS (KECES) to power it later to see if it makes any difference. Hopefully not then I can repurpose the UC elsewhere. Otherwise I'll have to get another UC for my second ER. Bad for the wallet.

 

Alex and John maintain an LPS makes no difference. That's from people with vested interest in making a sale. 

 

Out curiosity, I powered mine with LPS-1.2. If there was an improvement, I couldn't pick on it. I'd say, unless you suffer from a severe case of audiophile nervosa, don't spend any money on it. 

 

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

So true--and what a wise wife you have. 

But seriously, you gents amaze me with the many lovely ways you find to describe what you hear. (If I had to feed myself by describing what I hear I'd quickly starve .)

 

As for all people--and we first-world audiophiles have it easy--some days for John and I are difficult.

Having nothing to do with what goes on here, rather with all the behind-the-scenes work, both engineering and logistics challenges. Maybe I'm just in a state today (it's Sunday and I've spent all day in e-mail and mind-numbing accounting catch-up), but coming here and reading these new reports happy EtherREGEN owners brings me much joy and contentment. 

 

 

 

The cotton-eared critics think the whole realm of this stuff is hooey, you are all delusional, and that this is just a money grab by UpTone. Aside from being wrong about the sonic relevance of this stuff, they are of course wrong about the greed part as well. Otherwise we would have used cheaper parts/design and charged three times the price to make a more typical margin. And while those who could afford it would still write similar sonic reports, not near as many people would have the opportunity to enjoy the fruits of our efforts.

 

Now I am not trying to claim some kind of altruism here; This is a business (which we work darn hard on every day) and I am happy to be able to support my family and offer college assistance to our 3 children if they choose. But pricing fairly is important to us--even while I try to assure that we produce the capital for R&D and production of our next groundbreaking products.

Playing "Jobs" to John's "Woz" is the most fun I've had in my whole life. And it seems to show in the products and in a wide world of music lovers enjoying them. 

 

Thanks everyone...

--Alex C.

 

P.S. The January batch (all shipping by January 16th) is now about sold out. Whatever additional orders coming between now and in the morning when I change the web page (to say February for newly placed orders) will be reducing the number of units our dealers get for January. Even now it it clear that the dealers will get less than half of what they want in January. But don't worry, 150 of the 250 we are shipping by December 12th are going to the dealers--with ALL promised 2nd-batch/December direct user orders being shipped on time!

 

Thank you for sharing! 

 

If I may: affordable prices don't mean reduced profits, as the volume usually goes up. Selling one ER at $100,000 would offer an astronomical profit margins per unit, but likely zero in sales...

 

As for the expression "cotton-eared" I don't think it applies. Those critics are adamant not to audition the product, therefore their ears have no part in it. I have a hunch many of them lack the funds for any serious gear, so they resort to the "sour grapes" tactic, known to sooth the pain of unrequited lust.  

 

[LowMidHigh]

4 hours ago, jandersonhill said:

 

I would agree. I haven't had a chance to fully comment, but the ER compares very well with two SotM's in series. I believe the SotM has a slight edge (more so with their external clock), but we're then comparing products in a completely different price bracket and doing this well at this price point is an absurdly great achievement.

 

Those reports, including yours, might as well be true, but I take them with a grain of salt.

Audiophiles are notorious to be influenced by cost. "The more expensive, the better it sounds.," a consumer biase many unscrupulous vendors take advantage of.

I'll wait for the blind tests, thank you very much.

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Hi Guy:

Have you done any with your EtherREGEN unit?

Oh wait, wrong forum. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone!

--Alex C.

 

 

Perhaps I mispresented my point. I was referring to the ER vs. SoTM, not to the efficacy as the ER as a whole. In that context, I'd like to see an unsigned comparison. 

 

But since you've raised the question, I'll share that I indeed blind-tested the ER. 

 

My dear one randomly removed and added the switch to my chain behind my back. We used the same 2 reference tracks. Results: 9/10, which is good enough for me to wholeheartedly endorse your product. 

 

Now, please stop wasting time in forums and devote yourself to adapting your Mini Mac kit to the 2018 version

[LowMidHigh]

On 12/7/2019 at 12:51 AM, BigAlMc said:

 

I think there are a few interesting things here. Firstly, if we park the considerable price difference between ER and a fully tricked out SoTM then some will read this and opt for the SoTM. That's not intended in any way to disparage the considerable achievement that is the ER. Just acknowledging the trend in this hobby to chase absolute perfection.

 

Tho if you dive down that rabbit hole then you need 2 x SoTM switches and the price differential becomes 6 times rather than 3 😂Yeah, I'm sticking with my ER!

 

Second interesting aspect is that the ER and SoTM don't reportedly blend well and compliment each other.

 

Third for me is the finding that the ER does indeed benefit from a better PSU. (Fairly amazed there hasn't been more on this here tbh!). Intriguingly @CKKeung has clarified that he was advocating the LPS-1.2 as further improving the ER.

 

I'll add testing this to my backlog of tests and tasks. New firmware etc. But am hoping for some reports here on this.

 

Final comment relates to the Dutch switch shootout, rather than our Hong Kong friends, where the SoTM was highly rated but not by big margins. Struggling to get my head around this as the ER has a very significant impact in my system, others say the same for the SoTM. But the difference isn't huge compared to other switches. Huh? Confusing data point but well done to them for taking the time to do this. Ditto to CKKeung for his efforts.

 

Be interesting to see other head to head comparisons.

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

How about applying a different logic?

 

Since so many users of the ER are content with the supplied SMPS—people with both the means and drive to maximize the performance of their systems—perhaps we should be weary of that HH sighted evaluation? Or put bluntly, perhaps their observations are biased? 

 

I personally take it as a red flag and thus don’t put much trust in the rest of their findings.

[LowMidHigh]

On 12/9/2019 at 10:06 AM, Superdad said:

No, it won't.  First off, as a linear PS the JS-2 puts out very little leakage of its own. So powering his NAS or computer will hopefully result in lower leakage from its Ethernet cable.

Alex, 

Is there any harm in grounding the ER regardless of the circumstances?

[LowMidHigh]

Connected the ER to a Mac Mini, which feeds a TV set over HDMI and a MiniDSP AES sound processor over US. 

 

First, employed the A side. 

 A noticeable improvement in PQ. Grey blooming in nightly scenes is now completely absent. Colors are vibrant. 

No much difference in SQ

 

Next, the B side

Boom!! PQ is now brilliant. The screen is nothing less than mesmerizing. I’m complled to bat my eyelids here and there.

A big boost in SQ. The clarity and precision are notable. 

 

Conclusion: Going to order a second unit.

[LowMidHigh]

On 1/4/2020 at 1:12 AM, cat6man said:

 can you explain what you mean by 'emplyed the a side' and 'next, the b side'?

i don't understand your setup.

 

My ER is placed between my NetGear router (A side) and Aeries G2 streamer (B side).

 

I also have a separate system to watch movies, with a Mac Mini as its brain. 

 

So first, I ran a CAT6 from the ER (A) side to my Mac Mini.

Next, I disconnected the streamer from the B side and plugged in its place the same CAT6 running to the Mac Mini.

 

Hope that helps.

[LowMidHigh]

14 minutes ago, xrqp said:

If etherregen makes networked audio sound as good as internal hard drive, I would buy it.  Can it do that if my ethernet cable, router, and switches are all typical cheap type? 

 

I own a G2. 

 

First, know that the internal HD is the most noisy setup of all. The owner of Aurelic has a simple explanation to it, which you can look up on the company's forum. 

 

BTW, the cleanest solution is an SSD connected directly to your router. 

 

The ER has made a profound difference in my setup. The B side is connected to the G2, and the sound is phenomenal. I primarily stream off SoundCloud, and the chief detriment to SQ is poor mixing. However, when the mastering is good I can cry from joy. 

 

I use DIY cables and a NetGear router. And no, I don't believe expensive cables can make the slightest difference, although another switch in between might bump things up. 

[LowMidHigh]

8 hours ago, flkin said:

 

I used the sPS-500 through a HPULN 5A cleaner, and a Gophert CPS-1610 II through double HPULN 1.5A. Also a 30W, 9V zerozone. And the including switching unit. 
 

No configurations managed to tame the treble. Within my specific system.

 

I venture to guess it's a matter of acoustic treatment. The ER has accentuted the highs, and thus some HF absorbers are now called for. 

 

If the other frequencies have improved, consider the option. 

 

Cheers from Hua Hin

[LowMidHigh]

5 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Cybershaft from Japan.  They have a range of models. Hard to find in English or the USA, but here is a nice one for sale used:

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649585897-cybershaft-platinum-ocxo-master-clock/

Squint at the photo of the certificate for it and you will see exceptional 10Hz offset phase-noise spec.

 

Our Hong Kong dealer does a lot of business with Cybershaft and has been pushing them for some time to produce a version at an EtherREGEN-matching price-point. I don't know when that will happen though. 

 

The chips in the Cybershaft products--at least at the entry level--are reclaimed (read, used). Further, the enclosures have limited number of outputs (1-3) and require a convertor from 50hz up to 75hz in order to perform, an approach known to be suboptimal (50z ER would be a good match of course). The owner takes a cavalier is approach to the impedance conversation, which should tell you quite a bit about the design and the product itself.

 

I would do a thorough research before spending money with that company. 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 

 

This is all a bit off-topic for this thread, but I really can not let this stand.  Every Cybershaft clock system that I have seen comes with a measurement certification sheet tied to that particular unit/serial number.  The only "reclaimed"/used part it would make sense for them to use would be the 10MHz OCXO at the heart of the unit. It makes sense for their less expensive models, and here is why:

 

a) Cheap (new) OCXOs ($50~$250 wholesale) are rather worthless when it comes to building a reference clock for audio applications. They may have good stability (frequency drift) specs, but that is unimportant for audio purposes. What counts for audio--if trying to beat a really good XO such as the Crystek CCHD-575 used on our EtherREGEN and ISO REGEN--is ultra-low phase noise at very low offsets: 10Hz and even 1Hz and below. You can't get that for just a few hundred dollars. [An example is the Connor-Winfield OH4 OCXO we have seen promoted in some gear. -100 dbc/Hz at 10Hz is not very impressive when production Crystek 575s are coming out at -108 to -112.]

 

b) Truly low phase noise (at low offsets) can be ordered, but even in quantity a manufacturer could pay up to $800 for something with eye-popping specs such as -144dbc/Hz at 10Hz.  Yet there are very good -130 @10Hz OCXOs to be had for about $400.  But that is just for the clock module, and excludes the cost of quality power supply circuitry, other circuitry, case, and profit margin. This is why a product like the fine Mutec REF10 is $3,500 (a pretty good deal for the stellar performance actually).

 

c) However, there is a big market in surplus 10MHz OXCOs, from reputable firms like Morion and others. Here is an eBay example of a few 2007 Morions (though it's a 12V version):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2007-Years-Morion-Double-Oven-MV89A-10MHz-12V-Sine-Wave-OCXO-Crystal-Oscillator/333514733154  -130dBc @ 10Hz.  Sure, the frequency may have drifted a bit over the years, but that does not matter to us.

 

So if Cybershaft--who clearly is set up to measure and certify phase-noise for every unit they build--is willing to produce a sub-$1,000 reference clock for audiophiles by buying and screening surplus clocks, I think we ought to thank them. Unless someone produces some facts about the company to the contrary. 

 

 

Yes, its off topic, but your praises for Cybershaft are too readily given.

.  

First, Cybershaft doesn't bill itself as audiophiles company. Their clocks are general purpose, as the company owner explained to me a year ago. In fact, the switch between 50hz and 75hz testifies they don't care much about the quality of the signal. (John S. himself explained that such switches cannot work well (in the context of the ER)).

 

Secondly, back when I inquired with the Cyberhsaft, the company didn't offer return policy. Not even with a re-stocking fee. If find this practice questionable and personally a deal-breaker. But for each their own. 

 

Thirdly, the owner contradicted himself too many times in our email exchanges to gain my trust. For that reason, I feel I should warn others to do due-diligence before making a purchase. 

 

In terms of the reclaimed clocks, people should be aware of it, regardless if a reclaimed clock makes sense or not. 

[LowMidHigh]

52 minutes ago, Pokey77 said:

@Superdad Alex,

 

I meant to put a note in my review about the proximity of the ER to my server but forgot. I may try that at some point, but it does run pretty warm as you are aware and having it in a different room allows me to put it in an area where it can breath well. I do admit I'm curious to see if it is even better behind my rack close to the server. -I'm also thinking JS-2 where the ER is now and the second rail could power my router.

 

Pinback are a b and that kind of rescued me. I hadn't had any real break throughs in new genre's in a long time and stumbled on them probably a decade ago - I was late to the party but for me it is a good one. I can say they are one of my favorite bands for sure. If you look into them more, just start at the beginning and work your way forward. You will be rewarded. Most of their stuff is on Tidal.

 

Charley and Dorie helped me flesh out my thoughts and get things in the right order. Chuck is a very good friend for sure.

 

@austinpop Your answer above is insightful and a bit hilarious. BTW, I was referring to you and others I've been learning from since I made my way to AS.

Thank you for the well-written review. 

 

I'd like to share with you that I experimented with different cable lengths, due to placement consideration, and I didn't find any difference between a 45' and 3' Cat6 runs in terms of sonic performance. 

[LowMidHigh]

Odd. 

 

In the past, Paul was able to detect a difference in digital cables--which in my book is bunk and the reason I marked him down as snake oil prone--but now, suddenly, he's unable to perceive the value of a low-noise switch. 

 

I'd attribute Paul's erroneous conclusion to getting old and the attendant lose of hearing. 

 

Well, maybe SOTM is actually not a good product, but the ER makes a distinct difference, at least in my Pro grade system. 

 

In general, I detest the audio industry. There's so much BS and deception that I've long since tuned out most of thier claims, including Paul's, which I blissfully ignore. I use mainly Pro grade equipment, and the only reason I felt comfortable getting the Mutech products was thier pro pedigree. My streamer is the only audiophile product I own--out of necessity--with an ER and two LPS that I bought for experimentation, only to conclude they added little value, although I still deploy them. Otherwise, I returned almost every audiophile product I ever purchased.

 

ER is the only audiophile "gadget" I've ever endorsed. 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

47 minutes ago, Superdad said:

A fascinating new imaging report on the EtherREGEN has just been posted here:

Do check it out for the high-def images showing improvement in detail in a 4K video system. Very cool! 

 

As you full well know, Alex, I was so impressed by the visual improvement offered by ER that I purchased a 2nd unit for my HT (Netflix over Mac Mini to my TV).

 

Cheers! 

[LowMidHigh]

To anyone curious about cascading ER's: 
 

I've chained a pair, and it's well worth it. The LF has become notably more precise—fast and punchy would be one way to describe it—and the clarity is eminently stunning. The sound is so sweet, that I often find myself transfixed to my seat. 
 

I originally ordered the second unit for my home theater over the B port, but after some experimentations I discovered that the visuals were as good with either port—one the units were chained. On the other end, connecting my streamer to the terminal B port boosted the sound quality. 
 

I tried an LPS with my upstream routers, but it made no difference, so I guess 2  ER's makes what comes prior immaterial.
 

(A Kesces P3 powers both units and a Mutech REF10 is the master conductor).

[LowMidHigh]

2 hours ago, sgr said:

How do you have the two ERs connected? A to A, B to A, A to B, or B to B?

 

i connected a Ethernet 5 port switch powered by Lps 1.2 immediately before my EtherREGEN. It made quite a bit of difference too. I’m sure two EtherREGENs cascaded could be better. . 

Router --> ER1(A)

ER1(B) --> ER2(A) (That feeds the cleanest signal possible to the second switch)

ER2 (B) --> streamer (The streamer receives a signal twice scrubbed by he moat. Makes a marked difference) 

ER2(A) --> Mac Mini 

[LowMidHigh]

5 hours ago, Ponkbutler said:

I had a Melco S100 on demo here for around 10 days, putting in around 150 hrs to burn it in, and listening both with its own power supply and then with an upgraded Sean Jacobs/Custom Hifi Cables DC3, which improved things quite a bit. Having heard that the S100 could at least equal an EtherRegen with external LPSU (Paul Hynes SR7) AND Mutec Ref 10 clock connected I thought it could be a good way of keeping my box count down. 

 

Anyway it was a considerable disappointment. A quite seductive, very warm lush sound with artificial pop-out details and an equally artificial expanded soundstage that actually "exploded" instruments, scattering, piano, drumkit and even guitar across the soundstage. Moreover, the very low noise floor seemed to be at the expense of instrumental tone and texture compared with the EtherRegen and indeed no switch. Microdetail also suffered, with certain clear sounds of singers' pronunciation being lost for example. So although very smooth and calm, the sound was both less realistic and much less dynamic than the EtherRegen, which was considerably fresher and more vital, more propulsive and impactful with better pace, rhythm, timing and decay as well as instrumental placement. And that's alongside everything above in reverse: better instrumental, tone, texture and microdetail. Much more lifelike. Piano didn't sound like piano on the S100, just a dull and syrupy relative. There was really no contest. I was extremely relieved to get back to my EtherRegens. Just thought I'd let you folks know.

Thank you for sharing. 

 

Your impressions are a one person's opinion, of course, but I'd like to offer my praises for breaking away from the old and so prevailing dogma of "The more expensive, the better it sounds." Pleasantly refreshing. 

[LowMidHigh]

10 hours ago, Ricardo007 said:

I received today à second etherregen which is intended for à second source, à double PC configuration, to be received later.

Meanwhile I have in my bedroom system with TV thé Nvidia shield Android TV box streamer, with farad super3, which I use also for looking you tube videos. There is behind it the first etherregen clockéd by SotM master clock and follow éd by isoregen just before Terminator DAC.

I was thinking why not try it à double stack of etherregen clockéd by 10M master clock? Master clock and New Etherregen are powered by UpTone JS2. One clock cable is sotm the second one is cheap cybershaft 1.5 meter cable.

To summarize it is à big shock, huge improvment compare to changing my DAC.

Naturalness, New depth of relaxe sounds, sources have shrinked to their normal size and well located in space, songs lyrics much better understood, long decay of sound, space around instruments, better timbre...

Actually thé second ER was à much bigger improvment compare to the first.

Congrats to Alex and John for bringing this high value item to market.

Behind the 2ER is à 25usd Cisco 2960 switch linked to the modem/router and to à second Cisco switch with ubiquity AP for wifi (non audio). No fiber yet in the system.

Next planned step is to isolate the network from wifi.

 

 

I experienced the same. A cascade of 2 ER sounds surprisingly better than one.

Itching to test the limits and get a 3rd...

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

 

So, the Ref10 clocks both?  Are you using the included SMPS for power?

 

Yes, both units are tethered to a Ref10. A Kesces P3 powers both. Grounded. 

 

It's a matter of seconds to bypass them, so A/B and even A/BX are easily performed. It's quite shocking how the  sound degrades absence the cascade. 

[LowMidHigh]

37 minutes ago, Ponkbutler said:

The better the power supply the bigger the difference. The big PSUs from Hynes, Jacobs (CHFC) and MCRU are a big step up from the Farad. I would imagine the JS-2 is aswell.

 

For this sort of money, you'd be better off chaining two ER's.

The boost in sound will be more significant, and you'll be left with some spare change. 

[LowMidHigh]

4 hours ago, Ponkbutler said:

Have you compared? I chain two EtherRegens and find it worthwhile but the Sean Jacobs (Custom HiFi Cables) DC3+ power supply made a much bigger difference.

 

I did a blind test with 2 x ER vs. 1 vs. 0. Also swapped between a Keces P3 native SMPS. (I had the same 30 second of the same track played over and again).

 

In my system, I could detect the ERs to a various degree. The more the merrier. (with 2 ERS I got 7 out of 8). The power supply didn't make an improvementI have some work to do.  to my ears.

 

But I suppose a lot of it is system dependent. 

 

As food for thought, I'll mention that SMPS has gone a long way, objectively. 

Benchmark employs the technology in their DACs; Mutec in the MC+USB; and Genelec in their monitors.  And that naming only a few big hitters. Back in the day, as far as I recall, Alex wrote they didn't feel an LPS contributed much to the ER performance. "Unnecessary," I believed was the term. 

 

Again, it might make a substantial difference in your environment. 

 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

5 hours ago, Bernstein said:

Has anyone experimented with two ER in a chain? What was the outcome (if any)...

 

Have a chain of 2.  A noticeable improvement in my case. Recommending to give it a shot.

 

Ref clock makes a difference.

LPS will might make a difference, but I failed my amateurish blind test.

DC Cables? My sides are splitting from laughing.