another vinyl thread

[bluesman]

2 hours ago, wgscott said:

Lush Life is truly outstanding.

 

Lush Life and I Hear a Melody make it great, but it's inconsistent for an interesting reason that also makes it very educational.  It was recorded by Rudy Van Gelder in 3 separate sessions in '57 and '58 with a different rhythm section at each session.  Red Garland was supposed to play piano on all, but he never showed up for the first 3 tracks for reasons I don't know (Like Someone in Love, I Love You, and a slow blues). It seems that the producer was in too much of a hurry &/or too cheap to find a replacement.  You can hear how 'Trane's playing evolved between sessions - he actually seemed to lack complete confidence when forced to play without a piano or guitar behind him on the first 3 tracks.

 

Prestige was not known as a top tier label, and it showed in the production values embodied in many of their releases. Those 3 tracks are just 'Trane with Earl May on bass and Art Taylor on drums. They're kinda loose at best, probably because none of the three of them had planned on playing as a trio and that rhythm section was not as melodic and participatory as it takes to do sax / bass / drums well. Coltrane's playing is also a little tentative and formulaic.

 

Lush LIfe and I Hear a Melody are much much better, both musically and performance-wise.  Coltrane's playing is much more mature and inventive, and the players are at a higher level than May and Taylor.  Red Garland's (finally!) on piano, along with Paul Chambers on bass and either Louis Hayes (Lush Life) or Albert Heath (Melody) on drums.  Donald Byrd's trumpet is outstanding on Lush Life and, for me, as much of a highlight of the track as is Coltrane.  Also, these are much more of a group effort (and pretty fine recordings).  

 

The actual recording is OK, but I do prefer the sound of the original vinyl to the CD (which sounds a bit cold and sterile).  Despite Prestige's bargain basement approach to making records, the vinyl is pleasant if not SOTA.  I bought the digital disc when it first came out, so it's not a high quality issue and I'm sure there are better versions available now.  

[Ralf11]

Traning In

[Rexp]

9 hours ago, bluesman said:

 

'Trane was one of the most creative and inventive artists ever. Like most artists at the very top level,  he mastered the fundamentals of his craft early in his career and spent the rest of it exploring new avenues of expression. And, again like many, he moved from the mainstream of his genre to the cutting edge in a lifelong quest for new ways to make the music he loved.  He had a gorgeous tone with excellent intonation, and he was a masterful technician on his horn with an innate understanding of harmony, theory and timing that few have ever achieved. I don't much like his later explorations either - some are frankly cacophonous and others would be boring technical exercises if played solely to blow as many notes as possible into the shortest time spans.

 

I don't like Miles' excursions into the far reaches of fusion, but I listen to one of his early albums at least 2 or 3 times a week.  I really disliked Wes Montgomery's "pop" albums (e.g. California Dreamin') because they were boring - but Wes was the guitarist who started me down the path to life as a jazz guitarist, and I still learn from listening to tracks of his that I've heard literally a thousand times (I bought my first WM albums in 1959-1964 and I've listened to something from at least one of them every few days).

 

'Trane was a beautiful player who could bring you to tears.  If you don't know his early works, have a listen to Lush Life:

 

 

and to his truly gorgeous pairing with Johnny Hartman on what I think is one of the most wonderful albums of all time:

 

 

There are parallels to 'Trane's evolution in every art.  Picasso was an amazingly gifted artist whose early works were as traditional as could be.  But, just as "Trane did, Picasso evolved and explored many forms of expression. In doing so, he created some art that is still very hard for me to understand.  Dali was as fine an artist as any - his technical skills, understanding of color / form / composition etc were truly masterful.  But the stuff for which he's best known is simply not pleasant enough to my wife and me to hang on our walls - I wouldn't want to look at it on a regular basis.

 

Art is as alive as artists.  No one's hit record is 100% and there's probably something for each of us to love in the spectrum of most great artists' output.

Many folks who only use digital sources just haven't heard Coltrane properly, it's very sad. He was one of the greats. 

[esldude]

13 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

 

I very much under-appreciate Jazz and basically know next to nothing about it.  However, Lush Life is truly outstanding.

 

(It was also my first phony high-res purchase on HDtracks.  My 70 year old National Academy of Sciences friend could hear that something was wrong, and suggested we do a Fourier analysis to see what the problem was.  That post is around here somewhere...)

 

 

Maybe here.   The image of the FFT apparently  hasn't survived the various forum upgrades. 

[esldude]

4 hours ago, Rexp said:

Many folks who only use digital sources just haven't heard Coltrane properly, it's very sad. He was one of the greats. 

I owned a couple Coltrane LPs back when.  I've some of the earliest CD releases of the same material including Lush Life.  Sounds good to me.  Not even compressed extra like more recent reissues tend to be.  Coltrane's part on Kind of Blue which I have on a Super Bit Mapping CD is also very well done and sounds very good.   The Cannonball Adderly album Something Else which has Davis, but not Coltrane is an excellent sounding recording.  All on CD.  All from Van Gelder's studio.  All seem better to me than the LPs I had of those albums.  🤔

[Rexp]

On 10/30/2019 at 10:56 PM, kumakuma said:

 

The album is part of this six disc limited edition set from Esoteric:

 

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essb90122_27/indexe.html

 

It is OOP so it won't be cheap if you can find it.

 

This release from AP is in print, sounds better to me than the Esoteric version, and even includes two alternative tracks:

 

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/49144/John_Coltrane-Blue_Train-Hybrid_Stereo_SACD

 

 

I'm outside the US, any way to access AP downloads? Thanks! 

[sandyk]

Rexp

 

BTW, there is a 24/192 (1957) version available from HD Tracks. You may be able to find further details on their website.

 

Regards

Alex

[esldude]

If only Rudy Van Gelder had 24/192 to work with in his day.  

[sandyk]

21 minutes ago, esldude said:

If only Rudy Van Gelder had 24/192 to work with in his day.  

 

 It's always good to start off with a higher resolution than needed.

[Kyhl]

On 10/30/2019 at 9:56 AM, kumakuma said:

 

The album is part of this six disc limited edition set from Esoteric:

 

http://www.esoteric.jp/products/esoteric/essb90122_27/indexe.html

 

It is OOP so it won't be cheap if you can find it.

 

This release from AP is in print, sounds better to me than the Esoteric version, and even includes two alternative tracks:

 

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/49144/John_Coltrane-Blue_Train-Hybrid_Stereo_SACD

 

 

Holy buckets.  I didn't know Esoteric did SACDs.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/130943/Various_Artists-Great_Jazz_Selection-SACD_Box_Set

 

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, Kyhl said:

Holy buckets.  I didn't know Esoteric did SACDs.

https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/130943/Various_Artists-Great_Jazz_Selection-SACD_Box_Set

 

 

Mainly classical but they released a few Jazz box sets.

[Rexp]

20 hours ago, sandyk said:

Rexp

 

BTW, there is a 24/192 (1957) version available from HD Tracks. You may be able to find further details on their website.

 

Regards

Alex

I downloaded the 24/192 2012 version from Qobuz, might be same one, doesn't sound correct. The good news is I also downloaded the 24/96 Kevin Gray remaster and it sounds right! :

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/blue-train-john-coltrane/jcxkw06ct74qa

 

Interesting guy, this Kevin Gray, check out his system, if only most mastering engineers weren't half deaf:

http://www.cohearent.com/our-system/

[sandyk]

The Qobuz sample certainly isn't anything to write home about, however you should never rely on what you hear from samples only.

[bluesman]

On 10/31/2019 at 8:40 PM, Rexp said:

Many folks who only use digital sources just haven't heard Coltrane properly, it's very sad.

 

What's even sadder to me is that many (if not most) have never heard live performances of the music they use to judge reproduction systems.  Hearing 'Trane, Rollins, Getz, Griffin and so many others with uniquely beautiful tone live in a small, unamplified setting lets you understand and appreciate the variety and nuance in the sound of an instrument.  In their hands, the tenor sax was many instruments each with a clearly recognizable sound.  Similarly, the alto was born again each time it was played by Desmond, Cannonball, Art Pepper, or Parker.  And there's so much variation in the sound and playability of even the best pianos that the instrument can alter the performance greatly.

 

For my 21st birthday, my girlfriend took me to Paul's Mall in Boston to hear Wes Montgomery at a stageside table.  I was about 3 feet from him for the whole night and able to directly hear the gorgeous tone of his Gibson L5.  Yes, it was amplified thru a Fender Twin pointed away from me - but he hated amps, used them sparingly, and never found one that pleased him.  That night was absolutely thrilling!  Tone is in your chops as much as in your instrument, and this is hard to understand or appreciate without hearing it live in a small setting - huge halls and serious sound reinforcement simply don't let you appreciate the intimacy of a player's interaction with his or her axe.  It's difficult (if not impossible) to compare recordings to live sound without knowing what the source sounded like, and it's impossible to really understand how great a lot of music sounded solely from recordings.

 

This is still true, and there are many many great players you can go out and hear live now.  I was fortunate enough to be able to hear so many greats all through the '60s and '70s - but the best performance for me is always the next one.

[botrytis]

Live is live. I do not try to listen to my audio system to REPLACE going to a live concert.

 

Analog can be good, digital can be good. It just depends on the source material.

 

Use what you will.

 

PEACE!

[bluesman]

47 minutes ago, botrytis said:

I do not try to listen to my audio system to REPLACE going to a live concert.

 

Agreed!  What amazes me is how well and how often listening at home (and even in the car) opens a window in my mind through which the real thing pours in.  I remember sitting at a stoplight one day thinking how good the music sounded in my car, when I realized that it didn't actually sound that great.  I was "listening" through the stock audio system to what I knew the performance sounded like, and what I heard in my head was what I knew had gone into the mics rather than what was coming out of the speakers. I continue to do that today, having learned to separate what I wanted to hear from what I was actually hearing.  

 

Certainly, even those who have never heard a live performance can derive great pleasure and satisfaction from reproduced music.  My issue is with those who confuse sounding "live" with sounding like the original performance, when they don't know what the source material sounded like live.  There are a lot more recordings out there that sound like there are instruments playing in the room with you than there are that sound like the instruments that were recorded are in the room with you.

 

As we say where I come from, 'tis better to have heard only an mp3 than never to have heard at all. 

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, bluesman said:

 

...listening ... in the car opens a window in my mind through which the real thing pours in. ...

 

we need a car stereo thread

[fas42]

Not at all a vinyl man myself, but the friend down the road yesterday played a JVC Quadraphonic LP, CD4K-7548 (CD4) BEETHOVEN: Symphony no 6. Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Kurt Masur [Japan] - on a stereo rig, of course ... he said he had struggled to get the rig to a point where this was listenable to, in part because it was mastered at a lower than normal level, and even now the tonality of the strings was borderline - verging on being scratchy, all the time.

 

Is this difficulty with getting a good SQ on these discs because exactly the right sort of needle shape is necessary, or a generic issue with this type of 4 channel mastering - or something else? Perhaps someone here has had more extensive experience with these style of records ... 🙂

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Is this difficulty with getting a good SQ on these discs because exactly the right sort of needle shape is necessary

 

 You need something like a Parabolic stylus, which was at one time available locally.

 

https://garrottbrothers.com/p77i-cartridge

[kumakuma]

35 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Not at all a vinyl man myself

 

Good call!

 

Vinyl would be the ultimate rabbit hole for someone like you. 👺

[fas42]

24 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 You need something like a Parabolic stylus, which was at one time available locally.

 

https://garrottbrothers.com/p77i-cartridge

 

The company is still going! ... I remember reading about the unfortunate circumstances that occurred for the principals, decades ago ...

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Good call!

 

Vinyl would be the ultimate rabbit hole for someone like you. 👺

 

 

 Can't you ever post something without sniping or sarcastic remarks ?

 

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 Can't you ever post something without sniping or sarcastic remarks ?

 

 

👺

[STC]

45 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 You need something like a Parabolic stylus, which was at one time available locally.

 

https://garrottbrothers.com/p77i-cartridge

Or just get a laser turntable. 
 

http://stereotimes.com/turn030300.shtml

[Kyhl]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:42 PM, Rexp said:

I downloaded the 24/192 2012 version from Qobuz, might be same one, doesn't sound correct. The good news is I also downloaded the 24/96 Kevin Gray remaster and it sounds right! :

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/blue-train-john-coltrane/jcxkw06ct74qa

 

Interesting guy, this Kevin Gray, check out his system, if only most mastering engineers weren't half deaf:

http://www.cohearent.com/our-system/

Thanks.  You sent me on a wild goose chase where I ended up on Sundazed buying Kevin Grey's mastering of Booker T & The MG's - In The Spirit Of Christmas and The Highwayman.

 

Buy! Buy! Buy!