How to Test Power Cables & Interconnects?

[marce]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

Nice appeal to authority coming from a poster who thinks his science background somehow eclipses his mid range system...

Yawn yawn yawn, mid range system indeed, how utterly snobbish!

[marce]

10 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 The IR Led on a remote control can have a huge effect when activated.

Sorry using a SMPS to power my lap top can't read the text...😛

[Ralf11]

8 hours ago, 4est said:

Nice appeal to authority coming from a poster who thinks his science background somehow eclipses his mid range system...

 

what kind of person would attack someone's system?

 

oh!  I know!  somebody who doesn't understand physics!

[Ralf11]

and how about posting your system 4estie?

 

I am sure it is not 'mid-range'  but is it deranged?

[Teresa]

On 9/30/2019 at 10:49 AM, Temporal_Dissident said:

...At this point, my main question is whether the power cords that came "in the box" with my components allow more noise or interference than an expensive set of aftermarket cords. 

 

With digital recordings I don't notice any noise even listening with my Sennheiser headphones. All of my power cables are the ones supplied "in the box" with the components. Some people say they hear great improvement in sonics using expensive aftermarket power cables, personally I'm too cheap thrifty to give it a try.

 

I enjoy music very much through my carefully selected mid-fi audio system, and I think the sonic qualities when playing well made recordings are very close to what I hear live. So @marce I am never offended by anyone's snobbish attitude, such as how @4est  responded to @Ralf11 .

 

P.S. I do use a Monster Power HDP1800 line conditioner though as I was picking up what sounded like a faint radio station playing on all inputs, which it filtered out. I purchased it from a local pawn shop, the best $60 I've ever spent.

[4est]

10 hours ago, marce said:

Yawn yawn yawn, mid range system indeed, how utterly snobbish!

Perhaps it is, and then again the poster I referred to seems to suggest that because one may have a degree in physics or engineering their opinion is worth more than a lay person. I get that you don't see a need for cabling along with Ralf. As it stands, there are many who do, including some with advanced degrees in those disciplines. To state outright that because one has some sort of degree they are more qualified to access the validity of a subjective topic such as cables is simply false. I merely added the midrange system BS because despite what that poster would like to think, he doesn't seem to understand how to set up a system well. It is clear if you look at the pics of his system (dipole speakers a couple of feet off of a back wall for starters) and some of the silly answers I have seen over the past year. Interestingly, I was not promoting cables at all if you reread my original reply. I said what I did because it seemed as if the cable skeptics had piled on, and I wished to offer a different perspective. To be honest, I do not even understand why someone as experienced as you would even bother getting into this fray.

 

If I may get back to the OP's question, it would be my suggestion to wait until you have a good handle on what you already have. Later if you feel the need, you can try some cables to see what they do for you. I have never cared for the direct AB comparisons with subtle changes. Instead I prefer to replace one set and play a bunch of different music over a few days or a week to let things settle in. Then swap back the originals as a comparison.

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, marce said:

Sorry using a SMPS to power my lap top can't read the text...😛

 

I use an SMPS in my multipurpose PC and have no problems reading text even with my glasses off.

 Perhaps your Laptop's SMPS PSU has seen better days ?

[Temporal_Dissident]

12 hours ago, 4est said:

Nice appeal to authority coming from a poster who thinks his science background somehow eclipses his mid range system...

Boo. F minus. 

[Ralf11]

"subjective topic such as cables"

 

wrong again - it is an objective topic

 

 

[marce]

13 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

I use an SMPS in my multipurpose PC and have no problems reading text even with my glasses off.

 Perhaps your Laptop's SMPS PSU has seen better days ?

Could you send me the text on a Blu-Ray recorded at midnight using pure virgin battery power, as again the text is all fuzz, like its shrouded in veils...😂

[sandyk]

23 minutes ago, marce said:

Could you send me the text on a Blu-Ray recorded at midnight using pure virgin battery power, as again the text is all fuzz, like its shrouded in veils...😂

Sorry, but I only use Battery power to power a USB Regen for improving Signal Integrity when saving to USB memory  or exporting USB to a DAC or Media player.

 No doubt that you believe items like USB Regens, Ethernet Regens etc.are a waste of time and money too though.

 

[Temporal_Dissident]

I think this topic jumped the rails pretty quickly. My bad. Reading my original post, I realize this is my fault. I know enough to understand that the cable debate is heated and very subjective. I understand that no one can tell me what is "best" for me or my system. 10-4. Got it. 

I think what I *meant* to ask was this...
What is the best way to test system quietness? Is it as easy as hitting "pause" on a source and then cranking all gain adjustments to the maximum setting? Would this allow me to amplify any noise in the system and possibly measure it with a decibel meter? 

Seems like a potentially interesting experiment, but I wanted to ask before I did this. 

That's it. I will now duck under my desk and await your replies! 😬

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, Temporal_Dissident said:

I think what I *meant* to ask was this...
What is the best way to test system quietness? Is it as easy as hitting "pause" on a source and then cranking all gain adjustments to the maximum setting? Would this allow me to amplify any noise in the system and possibly measure it with a decibel meter? 

If you have enough noise that it registers above ambient on an SPL meter, something is wrong. That said, your idea is sound. Turn up the volume without anything playing and put your ear to the tweeter. You may hear a faint hiss which is fine as long as it's not noticeable at your normal listening spot.

 

If you want to measure something, connect a good multimeter (e.g. Fluke) to the speaker terminals. A cheap meter is probably not sensitive enough.

[Ralf11]

mansr gave you the right answer for 'hearable' noise

 

some claim that there is also a level or type of noise that you do not perceive directly as noise, but that can alter soundstaging or other aspects of SQ

 

for that 2nd idea one question is what gear you have?  Cost is no guarantee of SQ, but if you spent $1,000 on your entire system I would disregard the 2nd idea.  If you spent $50k on the system then it is something to think about, after you have done other things, such as room acoustics, etc.

[sandyk]

38 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

mansr gave you the right answer for 'hearable' noise

 

some claim that there is also a level or type of noise that you do not perceive directly as noise, but that can alter soundstaging or other aspects of SQ

 

for that 2nd idea one question is what gear you have?  Cost is no guarantee of SQ, but if you spent $1,000 on your entire system I would disregard the 2nd idea.  If you spent $50k on the system then it is something to think about, after you have done other things, such as room acoustics, etc.

Agreed. You need to get these things right before embarking on reducing the noise level to difficult to measure levels.

I use a very low noise 10 x gain battery powered preamplifier in conjunction with my CRO at maximum sensitivity to measure or even see the residual noise level from my DIY Class A Preamplifier.

[marce]

15 hours ago, Temporal_Dissident said:

I think this topic jumped the rails pretty quickly. My bad. Reading my original post, I realize this is my fault. I know enough to understand that the cable debate is heated and very subjective. I understand that no one can tell me what is "best" for me or my system. 10-4. Got it. 

I think what I *meant* to ask was this...
What is the best way to test system quietness? Is it as easy as hitting "pause" on a source and then cranking all gain adjustments to the maximum setting? Would this allow me to amplify any noise in the system and possibly measure it with a decibel meter? 

Seems like a potentially interesting experiment, but I wanted to ask before I did this. 

That's it. I will now duck under my desk and await your replies! 😬

Proper noise measurement is a pain and would involve an big Faraday cage (EMC lab), not doable for most of us... A scope of multi meter may give some indication of noise on signals... again without isolation its hard to locate the source....

[pkane2001]

15 hours ago, Temporal_Dissident said:

I think this topic jumped the rails pretty quickly. My bad. Reading my original post, I realize this is my fault. I know enough to understand that the cable debate is heated and very subjective. I understand that no one can tell me what is "best" for me or my system. 10-4. Got it. 

I think what I *meant* to ask was this...
What is the best way to test system quietness? Is it as easy as hitting "pause" on a source and then cranking all gain adjustments to the maximum setting? Would this allow me to amplify any noise in the system and possibly measure it with a decibel meter? 

Seems like a potentially interesting experiment, but I wanted to ask before I did this. 

That's it. I will now duck under my desk and await your replies! 😬

 

Hitting pause may be a bit misleading as many source components, DACs, preamps, even amps, mute their output when detecting no signal or very low-level signal. If you pause, you may not be measuring much of your system.

 

I use an analog to digital converter (ADC) to capture the output of a DAC or preamp (or headphone amp) using a PC and then analyze it using some freely available tools, like REW. This gives me a much better idea of the system performance, noise, and distortions. Some good, inexpensive ADCs are available on the pro market from companies like Focusrite, Apogee, and others.

 

Here's a headphone amp I measured recently using a 1kHz signal (all done by the awesome REW tool):

You can see that there is more noise at the lower frequencies (tilted noise floor)  and a whole lot of 60Hz main-line buzz and harmonics in the signal. Gives me a good idea of what I need to address first  But beyond that, once I figure out a way to resolve the noise, I can measure again and compare directly to the previous results to know if my fix actually helped.

 

[Temporal_Dissident]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Hitting pause may be a bit misleading as many source components, DACs, preamps, even amps, mute their output when detecting no signal or very low-level signal. If you pause, you may not be measuring much of your system.

 

I use an analog to digital converter (ADC)...

 

 

 

very helpful thank you. 

 

 

[Speedskater]

12 hours ago, marce said:

Proper noise measurement is a pain and would involve an big Faraday cage (EMC lab), not doable for most of us... A scope of multi meter may give some indication of noise on signals... again without isolation its hard to locate the source....

Actually for testing power cords and such, it might be better to do the test in situ with all the nearby noise sources operating. A good battery powered DMM can be used to measure changes in the signal-to-noise ratio at the output of the power amp. Also an O-scope might be a useful tool.

[Blackmorec]

At the end of the day, what are you interested in? A set of measurements, or how the measurements translate into the sound quality of what you hear?  For most audio fans, its likely the latter. 

 

Power cables seem to take time to settle in and reach their ultimate performance so this is how I go about comparing cables (as opposed to 'testing' cables). 

 

I unplug both ends of the old cable, but leave it installed and as undisturbed as possible and I connect the new cable, which I leave energised for anything up to 300 hours or more, playing music throughout but not judging anything. At the end of this time I play some of my well known favourite tracks. I then power down, unplug the new cable and replug the old cable and replay the tracks. I should be able to clearly hear the differences between old and new. Instead of trying to analyse the differences, which is really fraught with problems, I simply judge which I enjoy the most and would prefer to live with long term, noting for both the aspects of their performance I like or dislike. I always chose the option that gets me most deeply involved in the music with the least disturbances. 

[marce]

17 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

At the end of the day, what are you interested in? A set of measurements, or how the measurements translate into the sound quality of what you hear?  For most audio fans, its likely the latter. 

 

Power cables seem to take time to settle in and reach their ultimate performance so this is how I go about comparing cables (as opposed to 'testing' cables). 

 

If you want to combat noise in a system then you have to understand the noise, that means measuring it.

As to power cables if you believe they can change the sound they will.

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, marce said:

As to power cables if you believe they can change the sound they will.

 

 At a listening session a few years ago, A couple of big Nelson Pass 100W Class A monoblocks were listened to under non sighted conditions using the supplied mains cables and a pair of expensive mains cables plugged into a cheap Bunnings Power board.

ONLY the person setting up the changes knew which cables were in use each time . All 4 of the listeners, myself included, reported hearing a small improvement when using the expensive cables that were on loan from a local Audio Dealer.

 This was in a >Au. $100K system.  No, I did not expect to hear any difference.

 

[Blackmorec]

36 minutes ago, marce said:

If you want to combat noise in a system then you have to understand the noise, that means measuring it.

As to power cables if you believe they can change the sound they will.

I'm an audiophile not a physicist, so I don't have tools to measure EMI/RFI etc. nor do I have the interest in measuring everything whenever I do an upgrade. What I am interested in doing is removing limitations and faults from my system, that cause disturbance to the listening experience. I can do so simply by trying various configurations and products and judge whether they are having the desired effect. 

Of course I believe that power cables will change the sound. This has been true every time I've made a comparison. But some will change the sound for the better and some for the worse, so my key task is to identify the former and avoid the latter. Some will claim that I imagine the differences based on my belief....a kind of confirmation bias. This basically means that the differences aren't real and are only in my mind. It that were true, then the reproducibility of these imaginings is truly remarkable. Essentially I am able to imagine the exact same thing day after day, week after week and even with gaps of several months. That ability surely makes me some kind of genius with remarkable powers of recall?  

The problem here isn't in believing that power cables make a difference....the problem is exactly the opposite as its a belief that will prevent the believer from ever achieving a great sounding system as opposed to 'average' or 'adequate' 

 

[Blackmorec]

21 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 At a listening session a few years ago, A couple of big Nelson Pass 100W Class A monoblocks were listened to under non sighted conditions using the supplied mains cables and a pair of expensive mains cables plugged into a cheap Bunnings Power board.

ONLY the person setting up the changes knew which cables were in use each time . All 4 of the listeners, myself included, reported hearing a small improvement when using the expensive cables that were on loan from a local Audio Dealer.

 This was in a >Au. $100K system.  No, I did not expect to hear any difference.

 

Hi Sandyk, with respect, after-market cables will only improve the sound when replacing inferior cables, which then  begs the question; 'what sort of quality cables had Mr Pass provided with a pair of 100W class A Monoblocks? Are we talking the typical standard $5 Chinese made 3 core or something more exotic? 

[sandyk]

 

Quote

Hi Sandyk, with respect, after-market cables will only improve the sound when replacing inferior cables, which then  begs the question; 'what sort of quality cables had Mr Pass provided with a pair of 100W class A Monoblocks? Are we talking the typical standard $5 Chinese made 3 core or something more exotic? 

I can't answer the question as to which cables were supplied with the Pass monoblocks..

 The Pass Amplifiers, the original cables, and the expensive cables were all supplied by the local Audio dealer for evaluation.

The differences were also very minor , and certainly not easy to hear. I would also have expected the cheap Bunnings Hardware store Power Board that they were plugged into, to have been a limiting factor.