Innuos PhoenixUSB

[ASRMichael]

This is the question for me!! as I ponder......

 

Options

 

Pink Faun USB + Ultra OCXO + SJ - DC3

 

Or

 

Innuos phoenix (Effectively same PSU as SJ DC3) + need to buy another USB cable

 

Both options similarly priced... So I keep pondering......

[ASRMichael]

Has anyone bought Innuos Phoenix yet? Thoughts? 

[ASRMichael]

@ken6217 have you had a look inside to see what OCXO clock they are using? 
 

I have PF Ultra usb card power with Sean Jacobs rail. I do wonder how they would  compare. 
 

or two of them in a chain, would sq improve.... never ending this stuff! 

[ASRMichael]

9 minutes ago, Vangelis said:

What is the cost of a DC3 and how /where can one source It?

http://www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Yes, I am.

 

Matt

Boring talking or bored trialling usb reclockers?

[ASRMichael]

14 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

No interests.

AFAIK, the Taiko Extreme uses the USB output from the ASM3142 chipset of its motherboard without reclocker.

 

Matt

I do wonder if a reclocker would improve the Extreme’s SQ, even the extreme can be improved! 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I am absolutely sure that Emile tried all variants.

 

Matt

So Emile has tried the whole phone book? So no further R&D development required. Doors closed then on extreme 2! Come on, I know Emile is a genius but he’s not god! 
 

I suspect he left out OCXO clocks & other mods due to costs. When you already have amazing sounding machine which is streaks above the rest why risk adding further costs to an already expensive product. 
 

answer? You don’t, you leaves them out! 

 

[ASRMichael]

10 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Maybe not the best place for this post but I will try and respond to your questions and comments since Matt brought me into it.  The Extreme, from inception, was a "cost no object" product and represents Emile's best effort based on available technology.  At one time, Emile used to make his own OCXOs and used to provide OCXO boards for other music server manufacturers and so the fact that he has left out high-level clocking in the Extreme has nothing to do with cost.

 

To provide some background on Emile's approach, first and foremost, he listens and his ability to hear is exceptional, almost like a bat.  He said he had his hearing tested and he can still hear to 20kHz.  This is not something I am capable of.  He then tries to correlate what he hears with measurements and he hires an outside firm with very sophisticated measuring equipment to conduct these measurements.  He said he pays something like 100 Euros an hour for these measurements and has spent tens of thousands of Euros on measurements alone.  These measurements are not just limited to RF/EMI, jitter, or phase noise but other forms of noise that he will not fully disclose and he has observed certain patterns that have helped guide him.  With clocking for example, he found that high-level clocking did some good things but also bad things with respect to sound quality and I am in agreement with this.  Having once replaced all the clocks on a motherboard, I found the signature to sound too soft and unnatural.  He was able to figure out what these bad things were based on measurements and consequently figured out a way to achieve the good aspects of clocking without the bad without using expensive clocks at all.

 

The same thing applies to linear regulation.  There are good aspects to it and bad and there are somethings that switching supplies do better.  If you can reign in the bad and are left only with the good, then you go with it and so the Extreme is an anomaly because on paper, you wouldn't think it should sound good at all.  It uses high-power CPUs that generate a lot of electrical noise, stock off-the-shelf motherboards with noisy switching regulators and clocks on board, and no fancy USB board and yet the Extreme is the quietest, fastest, most resolving, and yet most natural sounding music server I have ever heard, easily besting my own DIY efforts and better than any of the commercial servers I have owned or tried in my system and by a very large margin!  Rarely do I speak of a $25k server being high value but I have easily spent more than this already on my numerous builds and have never come close.

 

Can it be improved?  Sure, anything can and I have certainly tweaked the Extreme to my personal preferences.  One of the advantages of the Extreme is that it lends itself to tweaking as it has 4 free PCIe slots.  While I haven't tried the Phoenix, I have tried a maxed out tX-USBultra with REF 10 master clock and Iso-Regen and even with these devices powered by my best power supply from Paul Hynes, neither device resulted in what I considered an improvement.  I have also tried various PCIe Ethernet and USB cards and they all will alter the sound, it's just a matter of what sound signature one is after but these devices make more of a minor difference than a large one.  

 

As for R&D, I am not in a position to say much except that Emile is in constant R&D as he quit his day job as a university-level IT person years ago to do what he is now doing full time.  At his core, Emile will tell you he is a DIY guy because DIY are his roots but his level of curiosity and compulsion are beyond anything I have seen.  During a conversation I had with him once regarding a Monoprice Slimrun Optical USB extender that I had purchased, by the time we finished our conversation, he had gone online and purchased one so that he could try it. 

 

Because of the Extreme's very large chassis, the current Extreme should be capable of handling just about any new motherboard or CPU that becomes available and so almost certainly, it will be upgraded one day.  During my visit to his workshop in Hengelo late last year, I was shocked to see just how many motherboards he had tried that were on his shelves including a motherboard he designed himself that didn't make the cut.  Same thing with CPUs.  He had recently ordered all the latest AMD Epycs to try out including a 64-core CPU that cost 5,000 Euros.  Basically, cost has not been an issue.  He listens to the signature of specific resistors, capacitors, and wire and measures them.  I saw bins of these things.  He makes his own mains cables and interconnects.  He makes his own anti-vibration platforms.  He is even making his own power distribution block comprised of German Panzerholz wood known for its resonant properties as I write this.  When I sent him my SOtM sNH-10G switches so that he could finally listen to what they sound like, with my permission, he tweaked mine and made them better.  He is investigating developing his own software player, his own OS, his own PCIe input and output cards, network switch, and even DAC because he has the ability to.  Not to say he will develop any or all of these things but I know he has interest in being able to control the entire digital process to match the level of the Extreme.  His commitment to R&D is nothing like I have ever seen.

Hi Romaz, thanks for the post, interesting reading. Emile seems like an incredible engineer. Ok..... I'll take my last post back....  But I think we can agree if positive development in SQ happen with OCXO's/PCI/Reclockers etc etc, I'm sure Emile will test them and implement them into his next model.

 

Just one point, I did hear that OCXO clocks do give a signature that was soft and unnatural. I've been sitting on the fence for a while now with regards to installing OCXO's clock on my MB, well until I seen Nenon's recent build where he has implemented PF Ultra clocks on his motherboard  (Albeit not on Dual Xeon CPU) with positive results. 

 

I do apologize to this thread for taking it off topic. 

[ASRMichael]

On 5/17/2020 at 4:14 PM, matthias said:

 

I am a "Source First" believer, so IMO when you do the USB host part right, you do not need them.

But as always YMMV.

 

Matt

@matthias Was looking back at this, I’m interested if your thoughts have changed? Since the news of Emile will be releasing a USB card? 
 

The fact Emile is releasing a USB card indicates the Extreme hist USB is not perfect & will benefit from usb card pci card. 
 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, tgb said:

Hi,

on all pictures of inside the Phoenix box there is a sticker on the clock...

Could someone take off this bloody sticker to know the reference of this OCXO ? :-)

Thks. Rgds.

It’s a Connor Winfield as far as I’m aware! 

[ASRMichael]

Does anyone know if Phoenix uses USB 3.0 or 2.0?