Pentatone Albums Now in Stereo & Multichannel DSD 256 & DSD 512

[bmoura]

10 albums from Pentatone, including their newest release Soiree with Magdalena Kozena and Sir Simon Rattle making his recording debut as a pianist are now available from NativeDSD Music in Stereo and Multichannel DSD 256 and Stereo DSD 512. 

 

 

https://www.nativedsd.com/information/breaking-news-from-pentatone

[firedog]

Got to say this seems like marketing more than anything else. I think some of these “original Pentatone masters” are in DSD 64 so these are in large part just upsampled in DSD. If you think higher rate DSD sounds better and don’t have the ability to upsample, I guess this makes sense. But it’s a lot of money to pay for someone to upsample the albums for you. 

[Norton]

12 hours ago, firedog said:

Got to say this seems like marketing more than anything else

 

I thought one of Native DSD’s core principles was that they didn’t  offer higher res files that were simply upsampled?

[tailspn]

It's much more than marketing (although we could use some), they're new releases. They're original first generation modulations at higher bit rates from the original DXD edited masters that produced the DSD64 downloads and  SACD's.

 

The Pentatone recordings, like the overwhelming majority of other label's original DSD recordings, are recorded in a variety of DSD bit rates, but are post produced in 352.8KHz PCM (DXD). That decimation and conversion process removes the uncorrelated modulation noise, and converts the digital valueless DSD bit stream into samples of binary digital values. That's a requirement with currently available Digital Audio Workstations (DAWs) to do any post processing other than simple edits.

 

Up to now, Pentatone's digital releases were DSD64 only. NativeDSD has acquired the original DXD edited masters from Pentatone, and is producing all the DSD bit rates, plus a DXD FLAC copy from those DXD edited masters.

 

This is very different than remodulating the currently available DSD64 modulation (which was also produced from the DXD edited master), to a higher DSD bit rate. As an aside, there's also no such thing of "upsampling DSD", for there are no digital samples in a DSD bit stream. It can only be modulated again, or converted back to PCM). The shortfall of remodulating a DSD64 to higher bit rates is that it produces a second generation DSD modulation with the original modulation noise added to the modulation noise of new higher bitrate modulation noise. The exception to this is a conversion tool like HQPlayer, that filters the lower noise bitrate prior to remodulation. Good, but not as pure as a first generation modulation from the original PCM master source. That's what NativeDSD and Pentatone are providing with these new releases.

 

The advantage of higher DSD bit rate releases (while there's no additional audio content information), is that DAC's/players perform better at higher bit rates due to gentler/more Gaussian shaped reconstruction filtering.

 

Tom

[tailspn]

7 minutes ago, Norton said:

 

I thought one of Native DSD’s core principles was that they didn’t  offer higher res files that were simply upsampled?

We don't with anything we master. However, several labels provide us already mastered recordings in multiple DSD bit rates, for which we simply tag and upload to our delivery server. They all state the multiple DSD bit rates were produced in separate modulations. This is realistic in that most all DSD recording labels use Merging's Album Publishing, which performs DXD > DSD conversions sequentially.

 

Tom 

[firedog]

Well if I was going to buy one of those Pentatone albums then, I'd buy it in DXD. I can always turn it into higher rate DSD with HQP or Roon if I want. 

[tailspn]

Yes, that is a valid route. One additional bit of information that may be of interest;  the FLAC we produce is limited by the format to 24 bit, where as the WAV edited master I receive is typically 32 bit. When the recording is converted initially to DXD, it's essentially 24 bit linear. If it's just edited, the results are still 24 bit, but can be rendered out as either a 24 or 32 bit WAV. If however, there's post process sweetening like EQ, mic channel balance and mixing, and/or effects processing, the resulting file is automatically computed in 32 bit resolution.

 

Merging Album Publishing automatically uses the DXD WAV resolution provided in the edited master to produce the individual DSD  bitrate modulations, and truncates the bit depth to produce the 24 bit deliverable FLAC. I produce a 32 bit WAV in order to produce the DSD512 using HQPlayer Pro. Its not yet clear if there's a sufficient market for the 32 bit DXD WAV tracks to offset the storage costs, but it's a possibility.

 

Tom

[ted_b]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

Well if I was going to buy one of those Pentatone albums then, I'd buy it in DXD. I can always turn it into higher rate DSD with HQP or Roon if I want. 

Yes, but you'll have to wait A LONG TIME to have EC modulated DSD512 on your own.    We use Jussi's pro modulators.

[barrows]

@ted_b, Very interesting Ted.  So for example, for this title:

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/37518-bartok-and-brahms

 

The higher rate DSD files are created using Jussi's modulators?  I have not read anything about this at nativeDSD.com, but perhaps I just missed it.  If the technical details are not noted at the site, perhaps they should be!  I am probably now going to purchase the above in DSD 256, and get the DSD 64 as well, and use them for comparisons vs. on the fly re-modulation through ROON (which I believe requires at least two passes through the modulator).

 

[ted_b]

46 minutes ago, barrows said:

@ted_b, Very interesting Ted.  So for example, for this title:

 

https://channelclassics.nativedsd.com/albums/37518-bartok-and-brahms

 

The higher rate DSD files are created using Jussi's modulators?  I have not read anything about this at nativeDSD.com, but perhaps I just missed it.  If the technical details are not noted at the site, perhaps they should be!  I am probably now going to purchase the above in DSD 256, and get the DSD 64 as well, and use them for comparisons vs. on the fly re-modulation through ROON (which I believe requires at least two passes through the modulator).

 

No, the DSD512 stuff.

[barrows]

So then from DSD 64 to DSD 128 and 256 are created using, Merging SW, and only DSD 512 is created using HQP Pro?  Would that be correct to be entirely clear?

[tailspn]

4 hours ago, barrows said:

So then from DSD 64 to DSD 128 and 256 are created using, Merging SW, and only DSD 512 is created using HQP Pro?  Would that be correct to be entirely clear?

 

Yes. NativeDSD converts DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, and DSD512, as well as a DXD FLAC individually, only from a labels DXD (PCM 352.8KHz 24 or 32 bit) edited master (regardless of whether the album was DSD or DXD recorded). The DSD64, DSD128 and DSD256 deliverables are all first generation modulations from the DXD edited master, created through Merging Album Publishing. The DSD512, also a first generation modulation, is created from the same DXD edited master through HQPlayer Pro. 

 

The exception is the very small number of label projects (Yarlung, Eudora, Just Listen etc.) who send DSD edited masters in the original recorded DSD bit rate, which have not been post processed in PCM (DXD). I create the missing bitrate DSD deliverable bitrates using HQP Pro. While these are technically second generation modulations (for the other than delivered DSD master), it's a process less injurious IMO to a DSD > DXD > DSD conversion sequence. The deliverable DSD bitrate used to record is actually the session master. 

 

Tom

[barrows]

Thanks Ted and Tom!  If these details are not available directly at the Native DSD site (and int he tech notes for individual titles) I hope that they will be added soon.  Especially considering all the possible paths.

[HenryOHenry]

On 10/4/2019 at 11:53 PM, tailspn said:

 

The exception is the very small number of label projects (Yarlung, Eudora, Just Listen etc.) who send DSD edited masters in the original recorded DSD bit rate, which have not been post processed in PCM (DXD). 

 

Tom

Tom, is Channel Classics one of the labels who send the original recorded DSD bit rate with no DXD processing?

[Desertpilot]

Native DSD now describes exactly how their engineering team "remodulates" the DXD master file in to various DSD sample rates.  They also post the original recording format.  

 

For example, I recently purchased Gloriae Dei Cantores Recordings (GDCD065), Arvo Pärt's "Stabat Mater".  Listed under Additional Information is the original recording format.  In this case DSD64.  But, you can purchase it at DSD256 (which was my choice).  Under the Notes section, Native DSD describes the entire remodulation process.  It is not upsampling.

 

Marcus

Las Vegas, NV