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Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro MQA

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3 minutes ago, opus101 said:

Looks once again that you've missed the point. See if you're any wiser after reading this article on Goodhart's Law https://adexchanger.com/data-driven-thinking/what-goodharts-law-can-teach-you-about-performance-data/

 

Yep since lower distortion measurements (all types) are both a measure and a target, then lower distortions are “no longer a reliable measure of performance

 

Makes sense.

 

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14 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

No caveats?

 

So nobody should target lower distortion measurements then?

 

 

 

To be honest, I think that’s a paradox of the forum in question. The mantra there is that all “properly engineered” DACs sound alike, and the common refrain in threads is not to bother spending more than whatever the latest budget Topping DAC costs unless you want other features, etc., because the difference won’t be audible. Given that, it’s not clear why they keep measuring DACs. 

 

(Going back to my previous post, it’s stuff like this that gives me...pause.)

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1 minute ago, JoshM said:

 

To be honest, I think that’s a paradox of the forum in question. The mantra there is that all “properly engineered” DACs sound alike, and the common refrain in threads is not to bother spending more than whatever the latest budget Topping DAC costs unless you want other features, etc., because the difference won’t be audible. Given that, it’s not clear why they keep measuring DACs. 

 

If you ask them for a falsifiable definition of 'properly engineered' you'll never get one. Sometimes 'competently' is used instead of 'properly' but the intent is the same. A more nuanced mantra is 'All competently engineered DACs sound identical under level matched, double blind conditions'.

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7 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

If you ask them for a falsifiable definition of 'properly engineered' you'll never get one. Sometimes 'competently' is used instead of 'properly' but the intent is the same. A more nuanced mantra is 'All competently engineered DACs sound identical under level matched, double blind conditions'.

 

Moreover, when someone demonstrates they can hear differences under those stringent conditions, it’s offhandedly dismissed as flawed or otherwise impossible. It’s circular reasoning. 

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On 9/2/2019 at 11:36 AM, Miska said:

 

To some extent that was discussed, but then I got fed up and ignored the whole site. They think that as it is now is all that matters, except that nobody can hear it, so it doesn't matter. So I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve.

 

You really summed up the irony of the entire mindset over there in one comment, haha.

 

I think what they're trying to achieve now though is the takedown of any product more expensive than a $50 DAC that doesn't rank as high on their THD+N chart.  

 

 

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12 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

If you ask them for a falsifiable definition of 'properly engineered' you'll never get one. Sometimes 'competently' is used instead of 'properly' but the intent is the same. A more nuanced mantra is 'All competently engineered DACs sound identical under level matched, double blind conditions'.

 

I think this is just a counterpoint to 'everything matters to sound quality' that you can find on many other fora. If one can imagine it affecting SQ, then it must be true.

 

Personally, I lean in the direction of 'show me' instead of accepting claims on faith. If you don't lean in this direction, perhaps ASR isn't for you. While I also like the banter and the back-and-forth there, the primary draw for me are the measurements and the discussions about measurements.

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10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I think this is just a counterpoint to 'everything matters to sound quality' that you can find on many other fora. If one can imagine it affecting SQ, then it must be true.

 

 

Personally I prefer a slightly more nuanced version - 'everything matters but to differing degrees, including infinitesimally small'. I would agree that many 'subjectivist' mindsets don't seem to have the concept 'low-hanging fruit'.

 

I also prefer 'show' to 'tell' but for me, ASR leans too far in the direction of the latter. The corollary of 'show' to me is observe and observations have quality. Numbers don't.

 

Incidentally @JoshM I think the reason they keep on measuring DACs is because its popular. Going back a couple of years, ASR didn't seem to me to be adding many new members. After Amir got his brand new AP it really picked up and now has become a honeypot for numbers guys.

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1 minute ago, opus101 said:

 

Personally I prefer a slightly more nuanced version - 'everything matters but to differing degrees, including infinitesimally small'. I would agree that many 'subjectivist' mindsets don't seem to have the concept 'low-hanging fruit'.

 

I also prefer 'show' to 'tell' but for me, ASR leans too far in the direction of the latter. The corollary of 'show' to me is observe and observations have quality. Numbers don't.

 

I think that's the point I was making: ASR leans to one extreme, many other places to the other. I like that there is at least some balance in the universe. It would be very boring if one extreme or the other was all there was. There is room for qualitative and quantitative observation, but not in the way most audiophiles do it.

 

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Kind of odd that no one who has heard one of these good measuring DACs (Matrix, Topping...) has posted their opinion of how they sound versus some of CA's standbys like a Mytek, Exasound, Schitt, Ayre, Chord, Auralic...maybe they are scarce?

 

 


Tone with Soul

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Not really that odd - good numbers on a DAC attracts customers who tend towards the view that a DAC with outstanding measurements is essentially transparent. Hence nothing to talk about.

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2 hours ago, JoshM said:

Given that, it’s not clear why they keep measuring DACs. 

 

Verify performance claims made by a manufacturer?

 

That doesn’t even need to be related to sound quality at all....

 

It is actually possible to treat these two things completely separate...

 

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