Request for new Forum - Vinyl

[kumakuma]

29 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

I am not referring to you when I say that there are a small core group of members who attack virtually every subjective report in the forum, no matter who posts it, and what the subject is.

 

 

Like many subjective reports, your subjective report about subjective reports on this forum is clouded by your cognitive biases.

[Ralf11]

6 minutes ago, SJK said:

what got us to where we are today.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Tape!     We need a tape forum.

[Ralf11]

https://www.electronicbeats.net/the-feed/collecting-vinyl-actually-terrible-environment/

[John Dyson]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

I prefer the sound of properly done digital. Always have, even from CDs. Think LPs sound fine, just don’t prefer it. 

 

I don’t care if people give sighted subjective reports. I am only bothered by them when the posters will not acknowledge that their reports are, by definition, tainted by bias. Like whatever you want, just don’t write about it as if you’ve discovered some phenom that applies to anyone else. 

 

I still don’t get how  vinyl fanatics don’t see a contradiction in all their “analog sounding” LPs sourced from a digital master, that they claim sound more “musical” than the digital master version. By definition, any LP/vinyl/ “analogness” they are hearing is coming from some kind of distortion caused either by a) the DAC used in creating the analog master; b) the pressing process; or c) the turntable playback. It’s something the process is adding to the digital source. 

I agree that in an ideal world, when digital has been properly mastered (and DolbyA decoded as in 1960s through 1980s material), that it is far far superior to vinyl.  Sadly, almost anything reasonable that has been properly mastered trumps poorly mastered and very accurately damaged signals on digital.

[Ralf11]

if there is an Analog forum, it should be called "Spit Out Your Bits"

[fas42]

7 hours ago, John Dyson said:

IMO, the jusification for vinyl isn't just the love of vinyl.  I am fairly sure if you buy a clean 99 Red Balloons not-recent vinyl copy you'll get normal sounding material.  The CD that I have (purchased decades ago) has both CD pre-emphasis (sometimes handled correctly), and DolbyA encoding (never handled correctly.)  The CD has an ugly, grainy, dirty sound that vinyl needs at least a few 10's of playings in a dusty room to degrade to that level.   The poor CD was bad sounding from the beginning.  (Really bad.)  And yes, the CD DolbyA decodes very cleanly after proper CD deemphasis...  No-one bothers to do the proper decoding -- always stuck with the grunge.

 

This is a very concrete example of where vinyl copies can be superior (vinyl technology is NOT superior.)  Anyone who can listen to the CD directly has more tolerance for shrillness than an audiophile could possibly have.

 

There is a confusion here of, non-linear, distortion in the treble - and recordings which just have strong levels of treble energy. If playback is "shrill", that means the playback is flawed, and the excess distortion being added by faults in the replay chain makes the listening unpleasant ...

 

This is one of the very clear results of achieving high integrity in the reproduction of recordings - one learns that one can't compromise on the standard of the playback chain, because to do so renders a high proportion of recordings unsatisfactory to listen to. Digital recording techniques allows for high intensities of elements in a recording which wouldn't survive in the vinyl world - the cartridge would have a very hard job in tracking it, because of the mechanical limitations of the mechanism ... so, they don't do it, .

 

Vinyl playback is using a very smoothed down road - so, generally is more relaxing to be on. No reason that the intensity that digital allows can't work - except that people don't understand that the 'suspension' has to be very precisely engineered, to ensure that the journey still 'works'.

[Rt66indierock]

56 minutes ago, SJK said:

I don’t feel the need to justify or explain where, when and why LP playback still has considerable relevance. 

 

It would seem that most of you posting here have either never had a turntable, or a very poor one with LPs to match and presume that same experience for others.  That’s a very closed minded opinion to say the least.  

 

And who listens to music through headphones?  What a diminutive experience.  And you hear snap, crackle and pop?  Try something other than your old records from the basement that you used to play on that old Dual record changer.

 

I’m disappointed that people who are willing to engage in lively debate on anything to do with bits and bytes completely discount what got us to where we are today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was state of the art in the day with a Kenwood direct drive base, Aluminum Infinity Black Widow tone arm Stanton 681EEE made in New York. Then a Technics SL-1200 so the kids could use it. 

 

So spare me I was around James Russell who understood the limitations of the LP in the sixties. And did something about it.

[sandyk]

13 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I was state of the art in the day with a Kenwood direct drive base, Aluminum Infinity Black Widow tone arm Stanton 681EEE made in New York. Then a Technics SL-1200 so the kids could use it. 

 

So spare me I was around James Russell who understood the limitations of the LP in the sixties. And did something about it.

 

 If there was still a large demand for 12" vinyl recordings and Collectible artwork, perhaps they should have used the later Laser Disc technology, which also towards the end of that era included a contactless Capacitive coupled version which didn't degrade the surface of the disc. Laserdiscs could also be turned over automatically with later models for the Couch Potatoes.

[Hugo9000]

57 minutes ago, SJK said:

I don’t feel the need to justify or explain where, when and why LP playback still has considerable relevance. 

 

It would seem that most of you posting here have either never had a turntable, or a very poor one with LPs to match and presume that same experience for others.  That’s a very closed minded opinion to say the least.  

 

And who listens to music through headphones?  What a diminutive experience.  And you hear snap, crackle and pop?  Try something other than your old records from the basement that you used to play on that old Dual record changer.

 

I’m disappointed that people who are willing to engage in lively debate on anything to do with bits and bytes completely discount what got us to where we are today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What a rude and dismissive post.  At least three of us who mentioned the issue of headphones were pretty clearly not opposed to a new sub-forum.  You dismiss headphone listening out of hand?  "And who listens to music through headphones?  What a diminutive experience."  lol

 

A single speck of dust landing on a virgin record can cause a 'pop' so why was it necessary to insult people's records, and accuse them of having an old record changer?  Wow.

 

Most of my listening is with loudspeakers, but I do use my headphones occasionally, and there are many people who use headphones exclusively by choice or necessity.  You have such an arrogant attitude about others who may have different setups or tastes, and you wonder that there are others who reject your own preferences or situation?  Your above post attack is about as closed-minded and insulting as any I've seen on AS.

 

My own very tiny collection consists of pristine LPs, and I don't listen to them at all, with headphones or loudspeakers, but I was posting here because I thought it was valid to add another sub-forum.

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

I was state of the art in the day with a Kenwood direct drive base, Aluminum Infinity Black Widow tone arm Stanton 681EEE made in New York. Then a Technics SL-1200 so the kids could use it. 

 

So spare me I was around James Russell who understood the limitations of the LP in the sixties. And did something about it.

 

well, crap!   I only had a Stanton 681EE.

 

You're an E up on me

[tmtomh]

It's undeniable that vinyl is an important part of the audio hobby today, and it's equally undeniable that vinyl is a major part of audiophile culture in particular, even if many of us - myself included - would argue that vinyl is less hi-fi than properly designed and engineered digital systems.

 

However, my impression is that @The Computer Audiophile changed this forum's name primarily to get away from the specificity of the term "Computer" in the name - the digital music server ecosystem has expanded massively since he founded this site, and in addition to all the ancillary hardware there's been a real "component-ification" of modern digital audio, with people moving to dedicated hardware and way from computers per se. (Not all of us, but still, a lot of folks.)

 

IMHO a name like "Digital Audiophile" probably would have been a more apt name change than "Audiophile Style," although perhaps the former name was not available or Chris had reasons for not choosing it or something similar.

 

I don't really care if a vinyl subforum gets added, as it's easy to ignore any thread one is not interested in. My only hope would be that, as @Sal1950 notes above, the culture of the forum would remain similar, with the same level of rigor applied to vinyl issues as are applied to digital ones now. The audio internet has more than enough places for unbridled subjectivity to run amok - this place doesn't need to become another one.

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

It's undeniable that vinyl is an important part of the audio hobby today, and it's equally undeniable that vinyl is a major part of audiophile culture in particular, even if many of us - myself included - would argue that vinyl is less hi-fi than properly designed and engineered digital systems.

 

However, my impression is that @The Computer Audiophile changed this forum's name primarily to get away from the specificity of the term "Computer" in the name - the digital music server ecosystem has expanded massively since he founded this site, and in addition to all the ancillary hardware there's been a real "component-ification" of modern digital audio, with people moving to dedicated hardware and way from computers per se. (Not all of us, but still, a lot of folks.)

 

IMHO a name like "Digital Audiophile" probably would have been a more apt name change than "Audiophile Style," although perhaps the former name was not available or Chris had reasons for not choosing it or something similar.

 

I don't really care if a vinyl subforum gets added, as it's easy to ignore any thread one is not interested in. My only hope would be that, as @Sal1950 notes above, the culture of the forum would remain similar, with the same level of rigor applied to vinyl issues as are applied to digital ones now. The audio internet has more than enough places for unbridled subjectivity to run amok - this place doesn't need to become another one.

Given the culture and foundation of this site is digital, I'd have a hard time creating a vinyl sub-forum. Perhaps an analog forum that encompassed preamps, amps, turntables, vinyl, etc... could work. I hate to tell people to go elsewhere for analog information because there are some dang smart and gracious people around here willing to help others. But, more thought and feedback is necessary before committing to anything. 

[MetalNuts]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Given the culture and foundation of this site is digital, I'd have a hard time creating a vinyl sub-forum. Perhaps an analog forum that encompassed preamps, amps, turntables, vinyl, etc... could work. I hate to tell people to go elsewhere for analog information because there are some dang smart and gracious people around here willing to help others. But, more thought and feedback is necessary before committing to anything. 

Agreed.  One need to specialize at something that he is interested in and not just go after everything that may appeal to someone.

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Perhaps an analog forum that encompassed preamps, amps, turntables, vinyl, etc... could work

 

 That sounds like an ideal compromise.

[AudioDoctor]

Chris, make it look like another subform but make it so that it redirects people to...

 

https://www.vinylengine.com

 

Everyone will be happy.

[Norton]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'd have a hard time creating a vinyl sub-forum

 

The only rational reason for not creating a “vinyl” forum would be that it wouldn’t get that many posts on this site.  That may prove to be the case, although I can easily imagine it equalling the post count of the “DSP” forum for example.  

 

However, not doing something simply because you’d “have a hard time” (from whom?) is a poor rationale in any setting and in this case  poor from both inclusive  content and business perspectives.   Looking around the dealers, stock suggests that a reasonable  and increasing share of audiophile spend has been going into vinyl recently, it’s not just cheap usb turntables for school kids and LPs as hipster wall art.  There may thus also  be advertising and sponsorship opportunities.

 

My suggestion - trial a “Vinyl and Analogue sources” sub-forum, perhaps inviting a credible and knowledgeable figure as “guest moderator” and see how it goes.

 

Nothing to do with vinyl per se and I haven’t actually done the sums, but it looks to me that, within the Equipment section, the General forum (even minus all MQA threads...) is around the size of all the other forums put together by post count, suggesting that the current structure isn’t that good a match for what people want to post about.

[Norton]

6 hours ago, tmtomh said:

as @Sal1950 notes above

 

???

[Rexp]

8 hours ago, tmtomh said:

It's undeniable that vinyl is an important part of the audio hobby today, and it's equally undeniable that vinyl is a major part of audiophile culture in particular, even if many of us - myself included - would argue that vinyl is less hi-fi than properly designed and engineered digital systems.

 

However, my impression is that @The Computer Audiophile changed this forum's name primarily to get away from the specificity of the term "Computer" in the name - the digital music server ecosystem has expanded massively since he founded this site, and in addition to all the ancillary hardware there's been a real "component-ification" of modern digital audio, with people moving to dedicated hardware and way from computers per se. (Not all of us, but still, a lot of folks.)

 

IMHO a name like "Digital Audiophile" probably would have been a more apt name change than "Audiophile Style," although perhaps the former name was not available or Chris had reasons for not choosing it or something similar.

 

I don't really care if a vinyl subforum gets added, as it's easy to ignore any thread one is not interested in. My only hope would be that, as @Sal1950 notes above, the culture of the forum would remain similar, with the same level of rigor applied to vinyl issues as are applied to digital ones now. The audio internet has more than enough places for unbridled subjectivity to run amok - this place doesn't need to become another one.

Agree, change the name to Digital Audiophile and leave be.

[Melvin]

Why all the negativity? This forum has morphed from Computer Audiophile to the all-encompassing Audiophile Style, no? What does it mean if not all audiophile styles are included? Perhaps I don't understand the point of the name change as I thought it was to be more relevant to those not using a computer in their system. (Yes, we all know streamers etc. are computers.) So why not vinyl and all it encompasses? If you have no interest simply use the ignore feature and let the vinyl folks obsess as they please.

 

[tmtomh]

3 hours ago, Norton said:

 

???

 

Maybe I misread/mistagged or was thinking of another thread - sorry!

[wgscott]

On 9/2/2019 at 3:04 AM, One and a half said:

At Vinyl Engine, is a typical thread, "First impressions AT-VM540ML and Sumiko Rainier"  where one user is evaluating long term different cartridges. Members then discuss the merits of each cartridge and others that work with that tonearm or another. The equipment is not expensive, and there's positive discussion. There are more threads like this, take your pick.

 

No mention of:

 

Double blind testing

Expectation bias

Measurements

 

What a bliss to read, no bickering, just valuable exchange, like it should be. Make up your own mind based on what the experience of others are, and not the sh$t that goes on here, censoring comments and truly stifling people's freedom of speech. 

 

Don't let the tone-arm hit you in your groove on the way out.

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 9/2/2019 at 5:04 AM, One and a half said:

At Vinyl Engine, is a typical thread, "First impressions AT-VM540ML and Sumiko Rainier"  where one user is evaluating long term different cartridges. Members then discuss the merits of each cartridge and others that work with that tonearm or another. The equipment is not expensive, and there's positive discussion. There are more threads like this, take your pick.

 

No mention of:

 

Double blind testing

Expectation bias

Measurements

 

What a bliss to read, no bickering, just valuable exchange, like it should be. Make up your own mind based on what the experience of others are, and not the sh$t that goes on here, censoring comments and truly stifling people's freedom of speech. 

This is usually the case when a forum is small and doesn't attract a diverse group of people with varying opinions. When I started CA in 2007, it was similar to this for the first several months. To be honest though, I'd never go back. it was too much like an echo chamber. 

 

If you believe there is censoring here and stifling of freedom of speech, please provide an example. We provide plenty of tools that enable everyone to speak and everyone to ignore others if they so choose. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, Norton said:

The only rational reason for not creating a “vinyl” forum would be that it wouldn’t get that many posts on this site.

 

There are many other reasons.

 

6 hours ago, Norton said:

However, not doing something simply because you’d “have a hard time” (from whom?) is a poor rationale in any setting and in this case  poor from both inclusive  content and business perspectives.

 

Thanks for the business advice 😉

[Ralf11]

Yes, a "positive discussion" without anyone contradicting a poster's random notions with facts is what we need, and vinyl is the perfect dinner plate on which  to serve up the mounds of BS.

[AudioDoctor]

This entire thread should just be closed, can any more be gained from continuing the bickering that seems endless here?

 

If you want to talk about vinyl there are many great places on the internet. Pick one.