Request for new Forum - Vinyl

[Hugo9000]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

In my experience, listening to vinyl or needle drops using headphones is often quite unpleasant.

I was never able to 'tune out' the random pops of LP when listening with headphones.  Over loudspeakers, perhaps it gets filtered out by my brain as if it is some outside noise, like being able (eventually/somewhat) to tune out an annoying cricket that one can't find and kill. lol

[TubeLover]

The trendoid based Millennials with $250.00, all in one record players in a box, who are the only element responsible for the still, relatively small, vinyl sales increases, don't really exist in on these forums. What would be the point?

 

JC

[Ralf11]

12 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

using something like Headphones for this purpose. DUH !

 

It would appear that you have never thought of the FACT that low SPL includes headphones.  DUH!!!

 

OR do you have some monster headphones that blow out your ganglia???

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, TubeLover said:

The trendoid based Millennials with $250.00, all in one record players in a box, who are the only element responsible for the still, relatively small, vinyl sales increases, don't really exist in on these forums. What would be the point?

 

JC

 

 

The pint is that it would allow people who don't understand digital audio to argue about an analog source infinitum

[bubbamike]

Vinyl is good. I'd like a forum to discuss vinyl siding, flooring and seating. Maybe Home Depot or Lowes could sponsor it. As to LPs there are a multitude of places where the discussion of the flaws of that medium are endlessly cited and expensive cures prescribed by the High Priests of the cult. 

[med_designer]

I messaged Chris about this very topic earlier this year. With the name change to Audiophile Style it seems appropriate to at least discuss the pros/cons of the inclusion of vinyl specific forums. Sub topics could include:

 

• Tonearms: pivoted and linear tracking
• Cartridges: moving magnet, moving coil, moving iron. 
• Turntables: direct drive vs. belt drive, suspended vs non-suspended designs, plinth materials etc.
• Preamps: solid state vs. tube
• Pressings: new vs. old (not all new pressings are bad, in many are quite good). This could also include mastering source discussions
• Care and Maintenance: All kinds of opportunities to discuss and argue here
• Setup: This topic can get into the weeds very quickly but could be used to discuss various approaches to setup based on the capabilities of the equipment in use as well as the what tools and experience the end user has. Someone may just want to know the how's and why's of a properly setup turntable.

 

I spend the last year or so putting together a very nice vinyl rig that works for me. Is it better than my digital rig? If I am being honest perhaps not all the time but in some cases it is more enjoyable than the same album on any form of digital and in other cases the digital clearly wins. Two examples:

 

• Brian Eno: Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks:  I have had this on CD for years and love this record. There is a new vinyl pressing with extra material so I picked up a copy and directly compared the two. In this case the CD wins. There is just too many quiet parts to this recording and my particular copy of vinyl has a few too many loud pops to be enjoyable. However, the vibe of the recording on vinyl is very good and probably captures more of the original intent.
• U2: Achtung Baby: Picked up a promo copy before pressed before the final mixes made it to CD. in this case the vinyl wins hands down. Much more body, punch, and balls than the CD or any digital counterpart. Great vibe. Quiet vinyl with no defects. This is now my go to reference for this album.

 

The point is vinyl gives one options they may not have now.

• Is it for everyone? Absolutely not. Those not really interest should not bother.
• Is it expensive? Yes it can get silly expensive but for the most part a good vinyl rig will be similar to a good digital gig. Perhaps  a bit more.
• Is it worth it? I think so, but how deep down the rabbit hole one goes will have an impact on your enjoyment. It is a commitment.
• Is there a need for good discussion? Yes, and while there are other forums one can join, having it all in one place where users can directly cross reference information would be valuable. Consider those just wanting to get into a basic vinyl rig with their existing computer based gear or those wanting to capture the signal from vinyl for playback from their music server. 

With has much discussion that has gone on in these threads of all kinds of topics one would think tweak happy audiophile types would really enjoy getting into the multitude of options and philosophies regarding a vinyl playback system. One thing I can absolutely guarantee. Be it an old time stereo enthusiasts or millennials getting their vinyl fix, none of them have any interest in MQA but would have interest in learning more about the sub-hobby of vinyl playback in the stereo ecosystem. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Ralf11]

[StephenJK]

3 hours ago, med_designer said:

I messaged Chris about this very topic earlier this year. With the name change to Audiophile Style it seems appropriate to at least discuss the pros/cons of the inclusion of vinyl specific forums. Sub topics could include:

 

• Tonearms: pivoted and linear tracking
• Cartridges: moving magnet, moving coil, moving iron. 
• Turntables: direct drive vs. belt drive, suspended vs non-suspended designs, plinth materials etc.
• Preamps: solid state vs. tube
• Pressings: new vs. old (not all new pressings are bad, in many are quite good). This could also include mastering source discussions
• Care and Maintenance: All kinds of opportunities to discuss and argue here
• Setup: This topic can get into the weeds very quickly but could be used to discuss various approaches to setup based on the capabilities of the equipment in use as well as the what tools and experience the end user has. Someone may just want to know the how's and why's of a properly setup turntable.

 

I spend the last year or so putting together a very nice vinyl rig that works for me. Is it better than my digital rig? If I am being honest perhaps not all the time but in some cases it is more enjoyable than the same album on any form of digital and in other cases the digital clearly wins. Two examples:

 

• Brian Eno: Apollo: Atmospheres and Soundtracks:  I have had this on CD for years and love this record. There is a new vinyl pressing with extra material so I picked up a copy and directly compared the two. In this case the CD wins. There is just too many quiet parts to this recording and my particular copy of vinyl has a few too many loud pops to be enjoyable. However, the vibe of the recording on vinyl is very good and probably captures more of the original intent.
• U2: Achtung Baby: Picked up a promo copy before pressed before the final mixes made it to CD. in this case the vinyl wins hands down. Much more body, punch, and balls than the CD or any digital counterpart. Great vibe. Quiet vinyl with no defects. This is now my go to reference for this album.

 

The point is vinyl gives one options they may not have now.

• Is it for everyone? Absolutely not. Those not really interest should not bother.
• Is it expensive? Yes it can get silly expensive but for the most part a good vinyl rig will be similar to a good digital gig. Perhaps  a bit more.
• Is it worth it? I think so, but how deep down the rabbit hole one goes will have an impact on your enjoyment. It is a commitment.
• Is there a need for good discussion? Yes, and while there are other forums one can join, having it all in one place where users can directly cross reference information would be valuable. Consider those just wanting to get into a basic vinyl rig with their existing computer based gear or those wanting to capture the signal from vinyl for playback from their music server. 

With has much discussion that has gone on in these threads of all kinds of topics one would think tweak happy audiophile types would really enjoy getting into the multitude of options and philosophies regarding a vinyl playback system. One thing I can absolutely guarantee. Be it an old time stereo enthusiasts or millennials getting their vinyl fix, none of them have any interest in MQA but would have interest in learning more about the sub-hobby of vinyl playback in the stereo ecosystem. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

i think that with the caustic and mocking response from this site, you may as well just post a link to the Audio Asylum.

 

 

[Rexp]

2 hours ago, SJK said:

i think that with the caustic and mocking response from this site, you may as well just post a link to the Audio Asylum.

 

 

Don't let the bastards grind you down.

 

All true Audiophiles have both digital and vinyl, some like John Darko have both but much prefer digital because they only listen to modern pop/rock, which makes sense. 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, SJK said:

i think that with the caustic and mocking response from this site, you may as well just post a link to the Audio Asylum.

 

 

 

This is becoming typical from a certain group of anti audiophile posters in every part of this forum other than the paid forum areas .

They won't be happy until there are no more subjective reports posted anywhere in the forum. 

 They didn't even like the previous forum name of Computer Audiophile either.

 

 

[Ralf11]

The anti audiophile posters are ones who love vinyl, because they are tweekers

[Hugo9000]

If someone wants to tweak, he will find a way no matter what.  If it's a mains-powered item, at a minimum he can change a power cord.  If it's battery-powered, he can come up with a special battery pack, or decide that batteries from a certain plant, with a certain batch code, yield better sound from the device.

 

Take a sealed item that will explode if you try to tamper with it, and you can always paint the exterior, or draw some runes on it, or put a crocheted tea-cozy over it and believe it improves the sound.

 

I don't think anything is exempt from that mindset.

 

All that said, there are a lot of people with large existing collections of vinyl records (yes, that generation is gradually dying off, but then their heirs get those collections, and need guidance on how to get the most out of them haha!), so I don't see why they shouldn't have a sub-forum here.  Even when it was "Computer Audiophile," it was an appropriate topic considering how many people are busy doing 24/96 vinyl rips or whatever, and playing those from their computers.  I can't see myself participating, but if we can have endless bickering on all these other topics, why not have another playground for analogue media?

 

Hell, I just noticed there is an iTunes sub-forum, not that it has many posts in it.  So what's one more sub-forum to ignore? lol

[One and a half]

At Vinyl Engine, is a typical thread, "First impressions AT-VM540ML and Sumiko Rainier"  where one user is evaluating long term different cartridges. Members then discuss the merits of each cartridge and others that work with that tonearm or another. The equipment is not expensive, and there's positive discussion. There are more threads like this, take your pick.

 

No mention of:

 

Double blind testing

Expectation bias

Measurements

 

What a bliss to read, no bickering, just valuable exchange, like it should be. Make up your own mind based on what the experience of others are, and not the sh$t that goes on here, censoring comments and truly stifling people's freedom of speech. 

[rando]

8 hours ago, Hugo9000 said:

there is an iTunes sub-forum, not that it has many posts in it.  So what's one more sub-forum to ignore?

 

Technically, this was a longstanding presence on the web CC assumed ownership of.  Perhaps you would care to aid ability to enrich his holdings with a suitable target that wouldn't be broadly ignored?  

 

Superphonica sharing a logo with German Plus size women's clothing store leads me to believe there might still be chance of enfolding niche fashion rescue blog (with small but active following).  With eye towards seeding currently underserved female audiophile market and provide safe landing place for topical WAF matters. 🙋

[John Dyson]

IMO, the jusification for vinyl isn't just the love of vinyl.  I am fairly sure if you buy a clean 99 Red Balloons not-recent vinyl copy you'll get normal sounding material.  The CD that I have (purchased decades ago) has both CD pre-emphasis (sometimes handled correctly), and DolbyA encoding (never handled correctly.)  The CD has an ugly, grainy, dirty sound that vinyl needs at least a few 10's of playings in a dusty room to degrade to that level.   The poor CD was bad sounding from the beginning.  (Really bad.)  And yes, the CD DolbyA decodes very cleanly after proper CD deemphasis...  No-one bothers to do the proper decoding -- always stuck with the grunge.

 

This is a very concrete example of where vinyl copies can be superior (vinyl technology is NOT superior.)  Anyone who can listen to the CD directly has more tolerance for shrillness than an audiophile could possibly have.

 

A true audiophile (someone who is actually desires sound similar to the recording engineer product) has basically two choices -- search around for a properly mastered CD -- which is sometimes difficult to find, or pristine near-original version of vinyl.   (Yes, I have mis-mastered VINYL rips with DolbyA shrillness also -- I dont think that should happen very often, but certainly less often than severely mis-mastered downloads/CDs.)

 

The maybe all of us oldsters have lost so much hearing that we cannot hear the shrillness and super fast HF specific compression anymore?

 

Anyway -- this subject is vinyl, and yes -- for those who can tolerate vinyl defects, they often do have the advantage (on some genres) of superior mastering.

 

In my case, I don't need vinyl to recover the sound that the recording engineer intended -- but I truly hate to say that vinyl can sometimes come closer.  Vinyl is NOT for everyone (definitely not for me), but when people are insensitive to the damage in digital recordings -- then maybe judging against vinyl because of the defects of vinyl can be rather (might we say) ludicrious. :-).

 

John

 

[astrotoy]

18 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

IMO, the jusification for vinyl isn't just the love of vinyl.  I am fairly sure if you buy a clean 99 Red Balloons not-recent vinyl copy you'll get normal sounding material.  The CD that I have (purchased decades ago) has both CD pre-emphasis (sometimes handled correctly), and DolbyA encoding (never handled correctly.)  The CD has an ugly, grainy, dirty sound that vinyl needs at least a few 10's of playings in a dusty room to degrade to that level.   The poor CD was bad sounding from the beginning.  (Really bad.)  And yes, the CD DolbyA decodes very cleanly after proper CD deemphasis...  No-one bothers to do the proper decoding -- always stuck with the grunge.

 

This is a very concrete example of where vinyl copies can be superior (vinyl technology is NOT superior.)  Anyone who can listen to the CD directly has more tolerance for shrillness than an audiophile could possibly have.

 

A true audiophile (someone who is actually desires sound similar to the recording engineer product) has basically two choices -- search around for a properly mastered CD -- which is sometimes difficult to find, or pristine near-original version of vinyl.   (Yes, I have mis-mastered VINYL rips with DolbyA shrillness also -- I dont think that should happen very often, but certainly less often than severely mis-mastered downloads/CDs.)

 

The maybe all of us oldsters have lost so much hearing that we cannot hear the shrillness and super fast HF specific compression anymore?

 

Anyway -- this subject is vinyl, and yes -- for those who can tolerate vinyl defects, they often do have the advantage (on some genres) of superior mastering.

 

In my case, I don't need vinyl to recover the sound that the recording engineer intended -- but I truly hate to say that vinyl can sometimes come closer.  Vinyl is NOT for everyone (definitely not for me), but when people are insensitive to the damage in digital recordings -- then maybe judging against vinyl because of the defects of vinyl can be rather (might we say) ludicrious. :-).

 

John

 

 

John, thanks for your posts.  One other option is a copy of the master tape, either a safety master or a dub of a safety master.  15ips 2 track is pretty standard, although I have access to some 30ips 2 track 1/2" tapes, including some master tapes and copies of masters that were done by a former Ampex engineer.   At least one prominent member of AS has heard some of my tapes.  Not the cheapest way to go, but for me very satisfying musically.

 

Larry 

[Ralf11]

A Master Tape forum?

 

A forum where alternative releases were listed and discussed would have some merit - any analog format that sounds better than readily available digital releases, or not available on digital.

[John Dyson]

50 minutes ago, astrotoy said:

 

John, thanks for your posts.  One other option is a copy of the master tape, either a safety master or a dub of a safety master.  15ips 2 track is pretty standard, although I have access to some 30ips 2 track 1/2" tapes, including some master tapes and copies of masters that were done by a former Ampex engineer.   At least one prominent member of AS has heard some of my tapes.  Not the cheapest way to go, but for me very satisfying musically.

 

Larry 

Yea -- master tapes are nice, but most people cannot get them (or have to pay big big big bucks.)  Vinyl or simply decoding the miscreant mismastered CD are the best choices of the three. :-).   I have a few master tapes loaned to me for testing purposes, but they are not my musical taste either :-).

 

John

[Archimago]

14 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

This is becoming typical from a certain group of anti audiophile posters in every part of this forum other than the paid forum areas .

They won't be happy until there are no more subjective reports posted anywhere in the forum. 

 They didn't even like the previous forum name of Computer Audiophile either.

 

 

 

Wow. What a limited view of what "audiophile" means... I don't think anyone has a problem with subjective reports, do they? It's just whether what's discussed makes sense or can be reasonably plausible.

 

I still have a collection of 300-400 LPs. I can certainly say that subjectively many of these albums including some first-press Billy Joels, Beatles, FYC, Dylan sound great even on a humble Technics SL-1200 + Denon cartridge. They typically sound more dynamic than digital versions, especially more recent remasters.

 

I agree with @Hugo9000, pops (and surface noise) from LPs are hard to ignore and "tune out". Which is why I never listen to them with headphones.

[firedog]

I prefer the sound of properly done digital. Always have, even from CDs. Think LPs sound fine, just don’t prefer it. 

 

I don’t care if people give sighted subjective reports. I am only bothered by them when the posters will not acknowledge that their reports are, by definition, tainted by bias. Like whatever you want, just don’t write about it as if you’ve discovered some phenom that applies to anyone else. 

 

I still don’t get how  vinyl fanatics don’t see a contradiction in all their “analog sounding” LPs sourced from a digital master, that they claim sound more “musical” than the digital master version. By definition, any LP/vinyl/ “analogness” they are hearing is coming from some kind of distortion caused either by a) the DAC used in creating the analog master; b) the pressing process; or c) the turntable playback. It’s something the process is adding to the digital source. 

[One and a half]

3 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Wow. What a limited view of what "audiophile" means... I don't think anyone has a problem with subjective reports, do they? It's just whether what's discussed makes sense or can be reasonably plausible.

There are those here that insist on expensive DBT results for everything, even toothbrushes.......

[Ralf11]

you are confusing what a DBT is - it is a method to control for irrelevant factors in subjective reports

[Rt66indierock]

53 minutes ago, One and a half said:

There are those here that insist on expensive DBT results for everything, even toothbrushes.......

 

We need to have a discussion of how to test reviewers. 

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Wow. What a limited view of what "audiophile" means... I don't think anyone has a problem with subjective reports, do they? It's just whether what's discussed makes sense or can be reasonably plausible.

 

I still have a collection of 300-400 LPs. I can certainly say that subjectively many of these albums including some first-press Billy Joels, Beatles, FYC, Dylan sound great even on a humble Technics SL-1200 + Denon cartridge. They typically sound more dynamic than digital versions, especially more recent remasters.

 

I agree with @Hugo9000, pops (and surface noise) from LPs are hard to ignore and "tune out". Which is why I never listen to them with headphones.

 

I am not referring to you when I say that there are a small core group of members who attack virtually every subjective report in the forum, no matter who posts it, and what the subject is.

 Neither was I suggesting that we should listen to LPs using  headphones , ONLY use headphones when converting them to digital.

 Having said that, I have heard some great rips to CD after they were declicked etc. using S/W such as SoundForge.

 Silicon Chip magazine even designed a special processor to do this automatically some time back.

http://archive.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_105914/article.html

[StephenJK]

I don’t feel the need to justify or explain where, when and why LP playback still has considerable relevance. 

 

It would seem that most of you posting here have either never had a turntable, or a very poor one with LPs to match and presume that same experience for others.  That’s a very closed minded opinion to say the least.  

 

And who listens to music through headphones?  What a diminutive experience.  And you hear snap, crackle and pop?  Try something other than your old records from the basement that you used to play on that old Dual record changer.

 

I’m disappointed that people who are willing to engage in lively debate on anything to do with bits and bytes completely discount what got us to where we are today.