Can System Noise be saved to HDDs, SDs, etc. in digital audio files?

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Electrical noise most certainly DOES get stored at a low level in a digital file.

Depends on the storage medium. For example, a punch card either has a hole in a given position or it doesn't. A worn punch machine might produce poorly shaped holes, but that won't be influenced by power supply noise.

[alfe]

15 minutes ago, mansr said:

Of what signal, and to what effect?

Peter can explain, he is using that ad nauseam.😶

[alfe]

13 minutes ago, mansr said:

Depends on the storage medium. For example, a punch card either has a hole in a given position or it doesn't. A worn punch machine might produce poorly shaped holes, but that won't be influenced by power supply noise.

Back to the future.

 

[jabbr]

21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Depends on the storage medium. For example, a punch card either has a hole in a given position or it doesn't. A worn punch machine might produce poorly shaped holes, but that won't be influenced by power supply noise.

 

And therein lies the difference between computer science and electrical engineering!

 

Yes the details and degree depend on the storage mechanism, but Americans all too well remember the “hanging chad”  True we are dealing with noise on Ethanol powered devices.

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, alfe said:

Peter can explain, he is using that ad nauseam.😶

Even if he can, he doesn't.

[marce]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Simply giving a reference to a Textbook is NOT a discussion.

 Even the Textbooks used in Primary schools get regularly updated.

Usual pathetic answer, don't bother unless you are going to contribute to the thread in a more positive manner.

[jabbr]

17 minutes ago, mansr said:

Even if he can, he doesn't.

 

There is a nice diagram in here: https://www.ieee.li/pdf/viewgraphs/jitter_basics_advanced.pdf

 

We’ve discussed modifying the rise time to modulate/reduce ringing etc.

[marce]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 Some can even make audio sound a little different by changing a  simple setting in the player S/W  while the output remains bit perfect.

bit perfect to what or are you claiming two identical digital files contain different information.

[marce]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Are you unfamiliar with the concept of drawing parallels? 

The idea that 2 distinct things, while different are clearly very similar in many respects? 

 

Nope...

[jabbr]

5 minutes ago, marce said:

bit perfect to what or are you claiming two identical digital files contain different information.

 

I think he is referring to the possibility of modulating various types of jitter/rise time and the SQ effect that might have. 

 

The “identical” operator when applied to two digital files, means “digitally identical” not “electrically or physically identical”. “information” in this context means “digital information”.

 

A digital system is designed to preserve and transform digital information, and explicitly not to preserve electrical information. 

[mansr]

14 minutes ago, jabbr said:

There is a nice diagram in here: https://www.ieee.li/pdf/viewgraphs/jitter_basics_advanced.pdf

 

We’ve discussed modifying the rise time to modulate/reduce ringing etc.

How does any of that relate to Peter's software?

[marce]

How would the data read modulate the jitter or rise time of the signal. to all extents the data would be identical to the system if it were operating at such a  level where system noise was that critical the system is broken.

[jabbr]

1 minute ago, marce said:

How would the data read modulate the jitter or rise time of the signal. to all extents the data would be identical to the system if it were operating at such a  level where system noise was that critical the system is broken.

 

The system is working as described. 

 

For example in a PLL or any error feedback system, the further away a signal is from the center, the larger the error signal: is that a voltage or current? Power draw? Consider a situation in which the error correction circuitry requires current draw.

 

 

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

6 correctly performed separate DBT sessions say otherwise, as do several more prominent and appropriately qualified members  in the last 4 1/2 months alone.

 

To be clear you are not doing DBTs. At best single blinded.

[pkane2001]

23 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

The system is working as described. 

 

For example in a PLL or any error feedback system, the further away a signal is from the center, the larger the error signal: is that a voltage or current? Power draw? Consider a situation in which the error correction circuitry requires current draw.

 

 

 

That's a possible explanation for how noise can be added to music reproduction when being converted to analog, but not embedded in the digital music transmission or a digital file copy. I know that you agree with this, just want to make it clear, as I think was the OP question and @sandyk's persistent claims are that digital copies can somehow embed and reproduce noise from previous digital file copy operations.

[mansr]

26 minutes ago, jabbr said:

The system is working as described. 

 

For example in a PLL or any error feedback system, the further away a signal is from the center, the larger the error signal: is that a voltage or current? Power draw? Consider a situation in which the error correction circuitry requires current draw.

Could you be any more vague?

[asdf1000]

9 minutes ago, mansr said:

Could you be any more vague?

 

So many cryptic replies. I was thinking if an understanding of Morse code was needed to understand what is going on in this thread.

 

[jabbr]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Could you be any more vague?

Certainly!

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/magnetic-hard-drives-go-atomic/

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/85/c1/8a/7b356cac8c4339/US6788484.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5633766

 

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

So many cryptic replies.

Not even that. They're just throwing out random terms related to digital signal quality. Saying "jitter" or "rise time" means nothing without mentioning which signals they refer to and what the expected/supposed effects are.

[davide256]

My answer...no. System noise impacts hardware/software operation, a less noisy machine operates more effectively, like a car that is properly tuned.

In the real time audio playback world that turns out to be very important.

 

But regardless of the "noise", stored data remains intact because we started building computers in the 80's when data corruption was a problem and

have over 30 years of error checking and fault correction mechanisms developed for computer hardware data processing.

[jabbr]

20 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

So many cryptic replies. I was thinking if an understanding of Morse code was needed to understand what is going on in this thread.

 

 

The simple answer is that when looking at how bits are stored on storage media at a low level there an optical or magnetic state. The readout electronics take these on platter states and convert to a digital signal. This process requires power and in many situations, the power required to convert the state to an electrical bit varies depending on the degree to which the state deviates from ideal. 

 

The takehome message is that when the bits arrive to your home via the Internet (in my case 1Gb fiber to my house), noise in the readout electronics on some server in Ireland does not make it into my house or yours.

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Certainly!

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/magnetic-hard-drives-go-atomic/

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/85/c1/8a/7b356cac8c4339/US6788484.pdf

https://patents.google.com/patent/US5633766

No, that's the same level of vagueness.

[jabbr]

Just now, mansr said:

No, that's the same level of vagueness.

 

Not more vague? You were asking for more vague ... did you read? Do you understand? In any case @alfe is actually one of the world’s experts on this exact topic and I am hesitant to go beyond my vague understanding.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

The simple answer is that when looking at how bird are stored on storage media at a low level there an optical or magnetic state. The readout electronics take these on platter states and convert to a digital signal. This process requires power and in many situations, the power required to convert the state to an electrical bit varies depending on the degree to which the state deviated from ideal. 

Does it, though, to any relevant extent? Supposing it does, how would these fluctuations propagate across multiple copies and network transfers? It's preposterous, and I'm surprised to see you of all people arguing otherwise.

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, mansr said:

Does it, though, to any relevant extent? Supposing it does, how would these fluctuations propagate across multiple copies and network transfers? It's preposterous, and I'm surprised to see you of all people arguing otherwise.

 

I am explicitly NOT arguing otherwise. Read my posts. I have been very clear that these fluctuations DO NOT survive copy nor network transmission. Stop accusing me of being vague when you haven’t bothered to read my posts.

 

 

Look at the second part. If you need more detail, refer to the circuits referenced later and google is your friend.