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Ralf11

Can System Noise be saved to HDDs, SDs, etc. in digital audio files?

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If so, how many dB below the signal is likely?

 

Or... will it be extracted at all?


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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37 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Barry D disagrees with [SandyK's assertions]. He says that a properly ripped CD sounds identical to what he provided for production.

 

@sandyk

 

Here are his exact words:

 

  Quote

On the other hand, when properly ripped to hard drive in a raw PCM format (such as .aif or .wav), the results *are* to my ears, indistinguishable from the master used to make the disc from which the files were ripped--even with that pit structure revealed by the AFMs.  I haven't found any exceptions to this yet in over 30 years of comparisons.

Read more  

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/24129-how-to-get-the-best-sq-from-cd/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-432030

 

----

 

the above is copied here from a thread on a different subject that Mr. Ketel spammed

 

 I have reported your post to Admin, as well as your reply telling me to fuck off, which is not acceptable in any thread by any poster..

 I have also previously made it perfectly clear that I have no interest in replying in  this thread either, yet both you and Ralf11  deliberately try to draw me into it.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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18 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

That isn't what he said.

"then shut the fk up"    is sending exactly the same message.

It is not acceptable after I had already been warned by Admin.

Neither is it acceptable to post the actual identity of the poster, as well as deliberately spelling it incorrectly.

You wouldn't like it if I posted your Surname , given that we already know your Christian name.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

"then shut the fk up"    is sending exactly the same message.

 

I can't find anything even close to that phrase or the phrase you listed in Post #5 anywhere in this thread. Could it be in a different thread?


I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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7 minutes ago, Teresa said:

 

I can't find anything even close to that phrase or the phrase you listed in Post #5 anywhere in this thread. Could it be in a different thread?

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57075-dc-power-cables-effects-on-sq/   #23

 

 


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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Apologies to the OP for this OT post, I'm merely sharing the above to show that if this is sandy's real identity, it's been openly available on the site for several years now.  If he wishes it to be private, I recommend searching for other instances where it has been noted and asking Chris to delete them all or redact his name.


请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

"I know I chatter on far too much...but if you only knew how many things I want to say and don't, you'd give me some credit!"  -Anne of Green Gables

 

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47 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Ralf11 and many others are well aware of my actual surname from private correspondence.

 

 Even if it was spelled correctly, there is no excuse for posting the real name of ANY member without their permission as their location is also often seen in their Profile as well.  It is a violation of their privacy.

 

57 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

Apologies to the OP for this OT post, I'm merely sharing the above to show that if this is sandy's real identity, it's been openly available on the site for several years now.  If he wishes it to be private, I recommend searching for other instances where it has been noted and asking Chris to delete them all or redact his name.

My post had nothing to do with whether or not the spelling was correct.  And I didn't dispute anything regarding a wish for privacy or good etiquette, I merely pointed out a post from years past that shared your identity in the open forum, and suggested a search and request for deletion of the posts or redaction of your name.

 

You often address certain members by their given names, which are not part of their usernames here, so it may not be fair to assume that Superdad or Ralf or anyone else had any malicious intent when they used your name in their posts.  I avoid it, myself, unless the person actually signs off posts with that name, or has it in their post signature.

 

And again, I'm off-topic, but that's my own fault for choosing to reply haha!  I certainly don't mind if the OP wants this deleted.

 

 

Edited to add:  I wonder which part you 'disagree' with.  The person below this post has a username that does not contain his first name in any way, yet you address him all the time with a first name.  And there are others.  Or is it that I'm now on the sh** list and will get gratuitous 'OT' and 'disagree' reactions just for existing?  A lot of people seem to do that, not sure if you do.  Sigh.

 

 


请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

"I know I chatter on far too much...but if you only knew how many things I want to say and don't, you'd give me some credit!"  -Anne of Green Gables

 

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

If so, how many dB below the signal is likely?

 

Or... will it be extracted at all?

I suppose for clarification, rather than will it be extracted, did you mean can it be extracted?  I vaguely remember info about how noise can effect the cleanliness of the actual stored data on a hard drive.  Of course none of that effects the actual data values, and when that data is used elsewhere it bears no relation or hidden evidence of the environment in which the hard drive operated.  

 

So a very iffy qualified yes, with an addendum that when the data is moved the noise is not there in data nor can it be retrieved elsewhere nor can it accumulate further downstream.   It isn't in the data, it might be in the method the data is stored, and could only be retrieved by some method unrelated to the data itself.  So there would effectively be infinite db between data and this system noise.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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Sandman, your surname is indeed all over this site - and elsewhere

 

if you really want it to be a secret it is too late; but maybe you can be redacted


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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39 minutes ago, esldude said:

I suppose for clarification, rather than will it be extracted, did you mean can it be extracted?  I vaguely remember info about how noise can effect the cleanliness of the actual stored data on a hard drive.  Of course none of that effects the actual data values, and when that data is used elsewhere it bears no relation or hidden evidence of the environment in which the hard drive operated.  

 

So a very iffy qualified yes, with an addendum that when the data is moved the noise is not there in data nor can it be retrieved elsewhere nor can it accumulate further downstream.   It isn't in the data, it might be in the method the data is stored, and could only be retrieved by some method unrelated to the data itself.  So there would effectively be infinite db between data and this system noise.  

 

I meant is it likely to be extracted during normal use.

 

Of course if it is impossible then it won't happen during normal use.  (except in the upside-down world of audiophoolia, where if it is impossible, then it will happen a lot)


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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10 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Ralf11 et al. There’s a lesson here. Look at the above thread. With respect to ALL posters,  just another stinking pile of acrimonious garbage. A shame because the original question was interesting, is not well documented or researched, yet can have tremendous impact on all our systems, where buffering is implemented as a means of preventing noise travelling through a system. 

You may have alternate views on things but your name (at least in my head) has become synonymous with flippant, glib, silly answers that contribute nothing but disrupt threads....just another form of noise.....Forum noise, if you will. 

So why not turn over a new leaf....if you do or don’t believe in something AND you have good solid reasons, facts, evidence and experience not to, then post your reasons and add to the value of discussions, rather than simply disrupting and polluting threads with worthless one- and two-liners. 😉

And its not Ralf11 alone...so et al, please take note....you know who you are. 

The facts of the matter are that system noise is not stored with a digital file...  Unlike recording an analogue file where superimposed noise on the signal is recorded as part of the signal.

As to researched, system noise and its effects are extremely well researched, I posted some links on the thread this has evolved from. Maybe some basic research on signal integrity/EMC would be enlightening. Of course to say this has no bearing on audio would be silly, Henry Ott (a respected expert on EMC) has done AES presentations and his book will be found in the reference section of many books on low noise design). Then there is the information all over the IC manufacturers sites covering low noise design. When people are using femto ampere op-amps noise can be a big issue, again what does have to do with audio, well the techniques learned doing the realy sensitive stuff feeds down to other electronics. And so as we push the boundary our knowledge expands.

Buffering is not implemented to prevent noise travelling through a system, isolation using opto isolator, isolation IC's or some other form of galvanic isolation to isolate two power domains completely and prevent noise currents flowing between the two domains. As a lot of this noise is high frequency care has to be taken to avoid capacitive coupling between the power domains. A non galvanic basic buffer has the same noise present at both input and output as they share the same GND, internally. 

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28 minutes ago, marce said:

Henry Ott (a respected expert on EMC) has done AES presentations and his book will be found in the reference section of many books on low noise design).

 

 An appeal to Authority that you don't like from others.

30 minutes ago, esldude said:

No one has any hypothetical idea how such a thing could happen so that power supply cleanliness at the point of origin could remain to have an audible to human sound difference upon playback at some remote location on some other device(s) or from some different physical record of the digital file so created.  

 

So what ?

6 correctly performed separate DBT sessions say otherwise, as do several more prominent and appropriately qualified members  in the last 4 1/2 months alone.

Two of them are also way more qualified in their respective areas than an amateur like yourself.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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I have an old HFX 12V power supply, which makes so much noise, it's irritating when placed on my desk. The noise fluctuates with what you are doing in Windows when using this PSU on a NUC.

The only reason I'm keeping it, is because of the high amperage, so it can power a whole lab of nucs, low power 12V based pc's and exernal hdd's from one PSU instead of using multiple 12V PSU's - but it's certainly not audiophile.

Also on low quality motherboards, there's leakage of noise into the analog 3.5mm audio out, which also fluctuates with what you are doing on the PC. In the 90's when I had my first soundblaster pro, it was even more terrible.

Sounds like modulated PWM whine.

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6 minutes ago, FredericV said:

I have an old HFX 12V power supply, which makes so much noise, it's irritating when placed on my desk. The noise fluctuates with what you are doing in Windows when using this PSU on a NUC.

The only reason I'm keeping it, is because of the high amperage, so it can power a whole lab of nucs, low power 12V based pc's and exernal hdd's from one PSU instead of using multiple 12V PSU's - but it's certainly not audiophile.

Also on low quality motherboards, there's leakage of noise into the analog 3.5mm audio out, which also fluctuates with what you are doing on the PC. In the 90's when I had my first soundblaster pro, it was even more terrible.

Sounds like modulated PWM whine.

Does that noise get embedded in any files created or copied there?  Or does it sound clean when used on another machine?


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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Just now, esldude said:

Does that noise get embedded in any files created or copied there? 


Off course not.
 

Just now, esldude said:

Or does it sound clean when used on another machine?


I did not measure the analog out of this NUC yet on a bad PSU vs a good PSU.
 

 

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