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Upgrading from my Yiggy


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I find it a bit amusing that some are suggesting it would be difficult to improve on the performance of the Yggdrasil.  I would suggest that in many cases this opinion is only wishful thinking, rather than being based on direct experience of listening to really good DACs in the same system.

If one really likes the sound of the Yggdrasil, I would suggest looking at other R2R style DACs.  Most of these are, of course, going to be significantly more costly, but one (sometimes) gets what one pays for in a DAC.

so, other R2R DACs:  MSB, as mentioned above are some of the best.  Recently I have been listening to the Bricasti M21, and it is a very, very good DAC with superb build quality (has to be seen to be believed, especially internally, the photos do not do it justice).  Maybe TotalDAC, but I have not heard those at home myself.  Also Resolution Audio Cantata comes to mind as well...

 

If you are looking for a "different" sound, then maybe listen to some of the DSD based DACs, like PS Audio DS, Playback Designs, Mola Mola Tambaqui, Meitner and EMM labs, etc... 

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  • 1 month later...
8 hours ago, Currawong said:

I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a Chord DAVE, which I used directly to headphones. In that case, it was a very significant upgrade over the Yggdrasil. The problem with the DAVE is, once you go through other electronics, you lose a bit of its resolution and magic.  The ideal thing would be to borrow one, as I did, and see if it is a significant upgrade in your system.

 

Other ladder DACs I've tried, such as the Kitsune/Holo Spring and Audio-gd have been a side-grade. They are more euphoric-sounding, which can be highly pleasant. It would be interesting though, to try an Audio-gd HE7 as the maker reckons that the built-in power regeneration is a significant upgrade over the regular R7.

Interesting:  Considering that the Yggdrasil uses integrated circuits for its conversion and the Holo uses a discrete resistor ladder.  Most people who prefer the sound of R2R DACs appear to believe that MSB (discrete resistor ladders) and TotalDAC (discrete resistor ladders) are the top performers.  Of course the quality of the resistors used in a discrete implementation will matter a lot.  Still, most circuit designers I know suggest that on chip resistors are never as good sounding as discrete parts...  I recently had a Bricasti M21 DAC here for awhile (on loan for Sonore's Demo system at RMAF, thank you Bricasti) and was impressed by its sound via its ladder DAC section.  I am pretty sure the Bricasti uses the same 20 bit R2R chips as the Yggdrasil...

 

On the DAVE, it has a very high output capability-likely enough to drive, say, a Purifi amplifier module directly (I have not researched it, but the Purifi needs around 11 volts in put for full output) without an input buffer.  For driving speakers, I wonder when we will hear about an approach like this.

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2 hours ago, Currawong said:

As far as I can make out the "euphoric" sound of discrete resistor ladder DACs is the result of harmonic distortion. The measurements I've seen suggest that the harmonics are too low to be audible, but I cannot see any other explanation, especially given that the Yggdrasil doesn't have that typical R2R "sound".  

 

I think you should probably take a look at measurements of the MSB DACs.  There is no significant distortion to speak of.  So I do not think anyone could suggest that MSB's sound is "euphonic".  You might be right in the case of TotalDAC (I have never seen any measurements for it).

 

Most DSM DACs have artifacts, although it is true that Rob Watts has done a lot to eliminate these in his designs, and ESS, with their newer chips is very close to the same place.  We have all heard about the noise floor modulation, both ESS and Chord have been working to eliminate these artifacts from their designs.  It appears to me that the problems with DSM are quite nefarious: signal correlated noises which are sometimes difficult to measure, i know this what ESS pays attention to in their designs, and I am pretty sure Rob Watts is as well.  But these types of distortions, which are generally not harmonic in nature are considered much more of a problem psychoacoustically than just some harmonic distortion (which we get plenty of from our loudspeakers).  I have yet to see measurements for the Bricasti M21, or the newest version  of the Yggdrasil.  The chips used by the Yggdrasil are rather expensive, relatively, but it might be interesting to see what happens with say, four of them paralleled per channel, which could raise the resolution.  Suffice it to say, I do not believe most current R2R DACs suffer from non-harmonic distortions the way DSM DACs do.  DSM is a cool trick which allows for very low harmonic distortion, but at the expense of producing non-harmonic artifacts which many believe are more disturbing pschoacoustically-ther tis still work to be done here!  Check out how Jussi's new DSM modulators (EC) in the HQPlayer 4 seem to be a big improvement over anything previously used.

 

There are certainly more ways to skin a cat, but to suggest simply that discrete R2R designs are liked because they are euphonic is missing the mark, as evidenced by the lack of any of these distortions in the MSB DACs.  BTW, it does not look to me like Chord is really doing much that is unique in terms of modulator design (the long filters are rather unique, but that is another topic).  Both ESS and dCS are in a very similar place in how they do things, addressing noise floor modulation, and the typical artifacts produced by DSM modulators.  And then it appears, at least to me, that Jussi is at again another level with what the latest version of HQP is capable of (albeit with the need for a full on gaming machine to be able to run it!).

 

  

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14 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Barrows,

you find measurements of your mentioned DACs in the DAC section of Audio Science Review.

Best

Matt

They have measurements fo the TotalDAC?  What I would be interested in seeing is measurements of the top of the line TotalDAC, as it uses multiple R2R sections in parallel to increase resolution.  In any case I'll take a look, not the measurements tell the entire story by any means, but I do prefer designs which at least have competent measured performance.

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1 hour ago, firedog said:

unusual technology

Ha!  unusual?  Anyone can purchase these chips (Google AD5791).  I think you that you (highly) underestimate the capabilities of Bricasti Design and their engineering partner!  Aas mentioned they are used by Resolution Audio in the most recent version of the Cantata as well (it used to use currently unavailable 1704 24 bit chips).

While I respect the capabilities of Stoddard and Moffit, they are hardly the only game in town.

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

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12 minutes ago, JoshM said:

but all three have underscored how hard it is to top the Yggy A2 outright

??  It looks like the DACs which you mention all are around the same price level (<$3K) or so...  I would suggest that it might not be so hard to "top the Yggy A2 outright" if one compares it to higher priced offerings.  Indeed, at its price level it may be impossible to beat the Yggy (perhaps depending on sonic preferences), but one can get more out of (some) higher priced DACs

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