Upgrading from my Yiggy

[Currawong]

I was lucky enough to be able to borrow a Chord DAVE, which I used directly to headphones. In that case, it was a very significant upgrade over the Yggdrasil. The problem with the DAVE is, once you go through other electronics, you lose a bit of its resolution and magic.  The ideal thing would be to borrow one, as I did, and see if it is a significant upgrade in your system.

 

Other ladder DACs I've tried, such as the Kitsune/Holo Spring and Audio-gd have been a side-grade. They are more euphoric-sounding, which can be highly pleasant. It would be interesting though, to try an Audio-gd HE7 as the maker reckons that the built-in power regeneration is a significant upgrade over the regular R7.

[Currawong]

On 10/4/2019 at 1:22 AM, barrows said:

Interesting:  Considering that the Yggdrasil uses integrated circuits for its conversion and the Holo uses a discrete resistor ladder.  Most people who prefer the sound of R2R DACs appear to believe that MSB (discrete resistor ladders) and TotalDAC (discrete resistor ladders) are the top performers.  Of course the quality of the resistors used in a discrete implementation will matter a lot.  Still, most circuit designers I know suggest that on chip resistors are never as good sounding as discrete parts...  I recently had a Bricasti M21 DAC here for awhile (on loan for Sonore's Demo system at RMAF, thank you Bricasti) and was impressed by its sound via its ladder DAC section.  I am pretty sure the Bricasti uses the same 20 bit R2R chips as the Yggdrasil...

 

As far as I can make out the "euphoric" sound of discrete resistor ladder DACs is the result of harmonic distortion. The measurements I've seen suggest that the harmonics are too low to be audible, but I cannot see any other explanation, especially given that the Yggdrasil doesn't have that typical R2R "sound".  

 

The Chord DACs seem, to me, to break the usual issues of deciding whether to go for accuracy or musicality, compromising one thing for another. The DAVE gave me the kind of goosebumps that I feel at a live performance. It is as if, instead of the typical "black background", that the background is filled in with the underlying substance of the music that a typical DAC has lost, and left silent ("black") instead.

[Currawong]

15 hours ago, barrows said:

 

I think you should probably take a look at measurements of the MSB DACs.  There is no significant distortion to speak of.  So I do not think anyone could suggest that MSB's sound is "euphonic".  You might be right in the case of TotalDAC (I have never seen any measurements for it).

 

Most DSM DACs have artifacts, although it is true that Rob Watts has done a lot to eliminate these in his designs, and ESS, with their newer chips is very close to the same place.  We have all heard about the noise floor modulation, both ESS and Chord have been working to eliminate these artifacts from their designs.  It appears to me that the problems with DSM are quite nefarious: signal correlated noises which are sometimes difficult to measure, i know this what ESS pays attention to in their designs, and I am pretty sure Rob Watts is as well.  But these types of distortions, which are generally not harmonic in nature are considered much more of a problem psychoacoustically than just some harmonic distortion (which we get plenty of from our loudspeakers).  I have yet to see measurements for the Bricasti M21, or the newest version  of the Yggdrasil.  The chips used by the Yggdrasil are rather expensive, relatively, but it might be interesting to see what happens with say, four of them paralleled per channel, which could raise the resolution.  Suffice it to say, I do not believe most current R2R DACs suffer from non-harmonic distortions the way DSM DACs do.  DSM is a cool trick which allows for very low harmonic distortion, but at the expense of producing non-harmonic artifacts which many believe are more disturbing pschoacoustically-ther tis still work to be done here!  Check out how Jussi's new DSM modulators (EC) in the HQPlayer 4 seem to be a big improvement over anything previously used.

 

There are certainly more ways to skin a cat, but to suggest simply that discrete R2R designs are liked because they are euphonic is missing the mark, as evidenced by the lack of any of these distortions in the MSB DACs.  BTW, it does not look to me like Chord is really doing much that is unique in terms of modulator design (the long filters are rather unique, but that is another topic).  Both ESS and dCS are in a very similar place in how they do things, addressing noise floor modulation, and the typical artifacts produced by DSM modulators.  And then it appears, at least to me, that Jussi is at again another level with what the latest version of HQP is capable of (albeit with the need for a full on gaming machine to be able to run it!).

 

  

 

I haven't tried the high-end MSB DACs yet. I'd like to, but nobody local stocks them. I've had more experience with R2R DACs under the $5k mark, which were all somewhat soft and euphoric in their presentation.

 

Yggdrasil Analog 2 measurements, including comparisons to the original, are here: http://www.just-hifi.com/Schiit-Yggdrasil-V2-upgrade-Technical-Measurements_10487560.html

 

The problem is, as I understand it (from explanations by both Rob Watts and Benchmark) is that the chips output a lot of noise alongside the audio signal, which has to be removed.  I suspect that is where the limitations are when it comes to resolution, and where Rob Watts succeeded by using an FPGA + discrete converter that doesn't have these problems, nor many others that affect conversion. Of course, it is more complex than just programming a filter in an FPGA, as the digital processing is completely unique.

 

14 hours ago, firedog said:

Pretty sure it doesn't. The Yggy uses a non audio chip that required a LOT of proprietary software engineering to make it usable for audio. Haven't seen any hint anywhere that Bricasti has bought that technology from Schiit, and I doubt Schiit would sell it in any case. And Schiit touts the Yggy as being the only DAC in the world that has that technology.
I think if Bricasti has some unusual technology like that, they'd at least mention it, in their product blurbs, and they don't.

 

There's nothing stopping anyone else doing what Mike did and figuring out how to use those chips for audio. I noticed that the actual chips used aren't mentioned. Though sooner or later someone will open one up and take a picture.