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Ayre QB-9 Twenty upgrade


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3 hours ago, Norman said:

Ha! I just saw desbiss’s post. Yes. I have the same cycling problem but haven’t received the firmware update. Running the DAC with the cover off is my temporary solution. I was expecting the firmware update to appear on the Support—>Firmware page of the Ayre web site, but it wasn’t there as of yesterday. Would love to get that update.

I worked with my dealer to troubleshoot, and he installed the update for me last week. I believe the good folks at Ayre were intending to put the update on the site as you noted. Might still be beta...(?)

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48 minutes ago, Norman said:

Yep. I’m sure that they’ll put it online when it’s final. Glad to hear that the version you have has solved the problem.

Yes indeed, the cycling seems resolved. No occurrences since the firmware update. 

 

I’ve been thoroughly enjoying my new DAC, and am looking forward to a Native DSD fix to follow soon. Hopefully it’s an easy one for Ayre to resolve.

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1 hour ago, jma2 said:

Hi all,

My upgraded QB-9 Twenty arrived this morning and I also bumped into the USB-power issue/feature.

 

My setup includes a Squeezebox Touch connected via an Uptone USB Regen to the QB-9.

 

Direct connection with the Squeezebox Touch doesn't work and it seems the USB Regen also doesn't pass clean 5V output when there is no 5V input available, because it also doesn't work via the Regen USB.

Direct connection with the laptop works fine, but that's not what I want in the end.

I suppose I will need some kind of USB power injector solution to convert the powerless USB signal coming from the Squeezebox Touch to include 5V power. If anyone has a good reference to such device feel free to let me know.

Another solution would be to force the Regen to output the clean 5V even though no input 5V is available.

 

Any further ideas?

 

Kind regards,

Jan

 

Jan - I suggest you contact your dealer or Ayre. I worked with my dealer and the good folks at Ayre for this, and Ayre was able to provide a firmware update that my dealer installed. This has resolved the cycling fully thus far. 
 

The eventual QB-9 USB cycling issue I refer to is apparent by 3 blue bars on the display, then the standby light, then back to the 3 blue bars. This repeats perpetually. No audio playback whatsoever.

 

For context, I also tested mine with my MacBook Pro instead of my Antipodes EX. Although I initially had playback with the Mac, my QB-9 Twenty eventually defaulted to the aforementioned cycling. I’m not sure how long this took as I had started testing in the morning before leaving for work, and came home to the cycling issue.

 

Regardless, since the firmware update I have had zero issue with my EX (which initially had no playback with the QB-9 whatsoever prior to the firmware update). It seems the update may be in beta as it is apparently not yet up on Ayre’s site for download. Native DSD is not functional yet with my QB-9 either, so I am hopeful the delay in the firmware being posted may just be in that aspect still being worked on by Ayre. 

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23 minutes ago, jma2 said:

Thank you for your reaction desbiss. I have indeed also this loop you describe. And every time the green standby LED appears there is an "Err" message displayed (no specific code) in a blink.

 

I contacted the Ayre importer in The Netherlands to see how to proceed. I also send a message to Uptone to verify if the Regen USB does or does not output clean 5V when no 5V available on the USB input.

 

I initially had music playback when I hooked up my laptop (Lenovo X220 running Ubuntu 19.10) directly but now playback is also interrupted repeatedly about every 20 seconds.

 

Hi Jan,

 

I completed forgot about the “ERR” aspect, I had that as part of the cycle as well...

 

“- - -“ then “ERR” then the standby light, with all three repeating perpetually.

 

It is fixable, with the firmware update. Which you or your dealer will be able to install once it is available. :)
 

You may wish to contact Ayre. Perhaps @Ryan Berry can chime in?

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13 minutes ago, jma2 said:

One further information:

I checked on the Squeezebox Touch in the Advanced Settings where you can select the Digital Output.

I see that the Ayre QB-9 Twenty is appearing in the list of interfaces for a few seconds after which it disappears again. I'm not entirely sure this continuous appear/disappear cycle corresponds with the Err Loop.

 

For now I'm in touch with the importer who performed the upgrade and who has tested it with a Mac Book Pro/Pure Music 3 combi without problems (I have no Apple HW to play with though). Of course if Ayre reacts here (or via PM) it will be much appreciated.

 

Jan

 

Your scenario certainly appears to be the same issue I had. 


I also had the same appear / disappear of my QB-9 in Roon. When the QB-9 display showed three bars I could see the QB-9 in Roon, and as the ERR and standby light appeared, the QB-9 was not visible/available in Roon.

 

If that is the case, you should be able to do the firmware upgrade yourself when it is available for download from Ayre. My dealer indicated it was very straight forward. I guess the self install aspect remains up to the folks at Ayre.

 

It was worth the wait. I’m hopeful for the Native DSD capability soon. :)

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1 hour ago, jma2 said:

 

It would be nice if I could do the firmware update myself (if that's what it boils down to). Otherwise the sending back and forth may take quite some time (again).

 

If the Native DSD comes in a future firmware update I hope we won't have to send in the DAC again.

My understanding is that the firmware was downloaded, placed on a USB stick, inserted into a slot in the DAC (cover off) then powered on.

 

I believe the intent is that users can complete this. Don’t quote me on this as I didn’t do the install, my dealer did. With that understanding I presume Ayre would make this easy for us, vs shipping back and forth. 

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1 hour ago, Norman said:

Hello all. My temporary solution to the cycling issue was to remove the cover from the DAC. This prevents heat buildup, which seems to trigger the problem. In the case of my unit, it would work for a while when cool, but will eventually fail in the way that everyone is reporting, including the brief err message. Removing the cover may help until the firmware fix becomes broadly available.

Hi Norman - while the cover is off, is it convenient for you to snap a few photos and share? I’m curious what the insides look like vs origins. :)

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21 minutes ago, Norman said:

Beautiful, clean board design. Nice Wima film caps and good Rubycon electrolytics. Just as clean and elegant as it gets.8CB899A5-4A2D-4DAF-9873-8E87F52F9292.thumb.jpeg.f0f1c2445c46866d9e730e8aded900d1.jpegEFC8520E-B53B-4331-9FBD-68F848C12879.thumb.jpeg.bea6d53afac23bfca09f5d02a51d7afa.jpeg

Sincere thanks for sharing the pics Norman. I can’t say I know exactly what I’m looking at, but I certainly appreciate the clean layout and design. 🙂

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28 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

 

Just to confirm, we have been talking with Antipodes.  It all seems related to flags and Linux, so we'll be looking into it further based on their advice.  Once we've figured out what needs to be done, the update will be in the form of a firmware release for one unit or the other.

Hi Ryan! Kindest thanks for your response. I am excited for the Native DSD 256 functionality, so if there is anything I can do to assist please let me know.

 

Also, this may not be specific to Linux... My dealer mentioned that the issue is also occurring in a Mac OS scenario. They have a customer using Roon via Mac OS who is having the same issues as myself with Native DSD and files above DSD128 (ie no DSD265 when using DoP, and no Native DSD whatsoever).

 

Again, sincerest thanks!

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15 minutes ago, Ryan Berry said:

 

I'll look into this one more, but my current understanding is that's an unfortunate limitation of the Macs.  They insist on doing everything through DoP, so you lose half the rate.  I haven't dug long enough to find the workaround there, if there is one.

Thanks for the insight Ryan regarding Macs. Some complexities with Native DSD it seems... I appreciate the good folks at Ayre for working toward a solution for Native-capable players. Also, thank you for working with Antipodes! Companies collaborating like that says a lot about their dedication to customers. Kudos!

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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, Ryan Berry said:

I think you're right, Barrows.  We bypass so much in the ESS chips beyond just the filters that we definitely do not use them as intended (but they sound MUCH better to us this way).  I've not noticed much of a difference between PCM and DSD with our implementation, but I also have to admit that I haven't sat down to really critically listen to each method for much time recently.  If anyone has spent some time with the Twenty version to experiment with this, I'm always interested in hearing what people think.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan

I’ll chime in... In my setup, sample rate conversion to DSD 128 via Roon is the clear winner. DSD seemed to take some added time to burn in, but I’ve not looked back ever since.

 

More presence and emotion... as well as better pace, rhythm, and timing. It’s more akin to live music via DSD, whereas the more apparent aspect with PCM is the precision and detail. This is not to say that precision and detail is lacking with DSD; not in the least compared to PCM.

 

Hence my hope for Native DSD 256. :)

 

Thanks for being active in the forum Ryan!

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14 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

Hey Des,

 

Thanks for the report.  It sounds like something I need to play with more.  Are you using any additional filtering in their DSP engine or just the conversion to DSD? 

 

DSD 256 is something the unit could technically support in the QB-9, but not with the improvements we made in getting the data from the USB microcontroller to the DAC chip in the QB-9 Twenty.  We did a LOT of listening to the more traditional method vs. our new way of handling the data and there was a pretty clear winner to us.  The tradeoff was that it caps us off at DSD 128 in the unit without getting into some really expensive oscillators like the QX-5 uses.  Theoretically, we could have had it simply revert to sending data the normal way when playing DSD 256, but it makes zero sense to have a higher sample rate that we know will sound worse than the lower rates.  We can likely get more out of it with other lines, but I doubt we'll be able to simply patch in some firmware that gets around this.  I hate to sound negative on something, as I love nothing more than to figure out solutions around issues, but I also hate to have you hoping for something we've done a few rounds on already.  You never know what we may come up with, however!

 

Glad to be a part of the community.  I'm a hobbiest myself and have a lot of similar interests to people here even outside of being a manufacturer, so this is probably the place I'm most active.

 

Cheers,


Ryan

Hi Ryan,

 

I'll be off on a ski weekend starting today but wanted to acknowledge your response. I'll review the details later but wanted to share my setup details in Roon. I only use Sample Rate Conversion, with settings as per the pics attached. I experimented with Parallelize Sigma Delta Modulator but found it best turned off... It killed the life in the music and made it more forward sounding, almost loud/shouty... completely lost its sense of ease, and killed the subtleties within the soundstage. 

 

I also wanted to clarify - my enquiry was regarding Native DSD 265. You and I have been in email dialogue regarding it not working (yet) with my Antipodes EX. We had not yet conversed regarding potential resolution.

 

Cheers,

Des

 

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3 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

 

Ah, right you are!  I had DSD 512 in my head from a conversation I had with another Ayre user yesterday.  Sorry for the confusion.  Yes, DSD 256 SHOULD be a simple fix.  We'll try and follow up with Antipodes to see where we're at on this one.  On a positively note, Melco recently sent us an update to try on our Melco unit here and we were able to play DSD 256 successfully, so I'm quite confident that it's possible.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan

That’s great news! Thanks again Ryan. :)

 

As an update: when I last checked with Antipodes they had connected Ariel with an individual who is familiar with the automatic Native DSD detection in the Linux software used by Small Green Computer and Sonore, (as well as Antipodes).

 

I understand the problem is not in using the QB-9 with Linux kernels, but the QB-9 Twenty firmware’s ability to be detected as Native DSD capable in the aforementioned Linux application.

 

Thanks again for the cross-company collaboration. Cheers!

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On 12/12/2019 at 4:20 PM, Ryan Berry said:

 

Hi Des,

 

I'll let Ariel and handle that.  After further looking into things, I don't believe this is the final solution, and as the QB-9 is working flawlessly with other platforms like the Melco, I suspect it's just a matter of tweaking on the Antipodes end.  Again, I don't want to say too much on the subject as I'm not involved with the firmware end outside of the conceptual level, but the goods news is we know that it can work with the firmware in the QB-9 as-is.  There's been a few emails that have gone back and forth on this, so I'll want to check with Ariel once he's back from his trip for the latest update before saying more.

 

Cheers,

 

Ryan

Thanks for your reply Ryan. I look forward to an update and will wait to hear further from you upon Ariel’s return. Much appreciated!

Des

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13 hours ago, CG said:

Presence and emotion are secondary to me compared to transparency and lack of crud.  Presumably, when you attain good performance in those areas, your brain should be able to take care of the rest.

Thanks for confirming Native 256 CG! I upsample everything to DSD using Roon but am not yet able to play Native DSD, only up to DSD 128 via DoP. 
 

I find a balance is achieved in the final 500 hour stretch. The QB-9 certainly hits high in terms of transparency and lack of crud before then. It just seems that the final stretch is where the icing on the cake becomes most apparent, with the presence and emotion solidifying. 
 

Thanks for your reply!

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  • 8 months later...
23 hours ago, spin33 said:


Excellent! If I’m not mistaken, DSD128 is the max in Roon when using DoP. Will go higher if your streamer/DAC supports Native DSD. I’m getting DSD256 in Native mode with my QB-9 Twenty and sonicTransporter i5 (running latest software update). 

I’m looking forward to Native DSD 265 with my QB-9 Twenty. Was there an appreciable difference with Native compared to using DoP?

 

I’m awaiting the Software update from Antipodes to enable this for my EX, (which utilizes the SonicOrbiter software). 

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15 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

 

There really shouldn't be a noticeable difference between the two as the DSD portion of the data's the same.  Of course, without the DoP information, the maximum speed can be doubled, but "native" (I prefer to think of it more as "raw") DSD 64 vs. DSD via DoP 64 should really about be the same.  I think your ears are spot-on.

 

Cheers,

Ryan

Great point of clarification Ryan. What I’m most curious about pertains to the doubling of max speed aspect you noted. In my case, being able to go from DSD128 via DoP as the max, to “Native” DSD256. 

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