Ayre QB-9 Twenty upgrade

[CG]

Do you fortunate guys who have upgraded your QB-9's have any further comments?  They must be broken in by now.

 

Thanks!

[CG]

Thanks everybody!  That was very helpful.

 

With a discontinued product like the QB-9, it's unlikely that the upgrade will ever be reviewed by a professional reviewer.  Can't very well audition it at a dealer, either.

 

Y'know, I think this is the best kind of review anyway.  Everyone here has used a QB-9 for quite some time and is really familiar with its sound.  A professional reviewer might get a few weeks with a product, maybe even while reviewing something else.  They probably don't have the same "feel" for the product as a long term owner.  Plus, you all paid real money for the upgrade.  (Reviewers purchase what they like well after the review.)  If you're happy with the upgrade, you're going to say so.  If you're unhappy, you'd probably say as much and want your old QB-9 back.  

 

So, I'm convinced.

 

Now, I just have to negotiate with my, ahh, business manager...

[CG]

Just a quick update.

 

Somehow, when we shipped our QB-9 DSD out to Ayre, it was delayed due to a train derailment.  Figures, doesn't it?  But, Ayre turned the QB-9 DSD around in a couple days.  I asked them to not ship it back until after the Thanksgiving holiday break, in order to make certain that somebody was home to sign for it on delivery.  Gary Mulder at Ayre made all this work seamlessly.

 

It was pretty cold here when the QB-9 Twenty arrived.  The cabinet was mighty cold after sitting in a UPS truck all day.  But, I plugged it in to make sure it worked ok.

 

It did.  That is, it made sound when fed digital files through the USB port.  Not really good sound.  That was true even after an hour of stabilizing to room temperature.  I wondered if I'd made a huge mistake.

 

So, I let it run all day and all of the night with a continual feed of various music files.  Including material from The Kinks.

 

Yesterday was the 180 hour mark, or thereabouts.

 

What a difference!

 

The QB-9 Twenty is way better than the olde QB-9 DSD, in just about every way.  I won't give a reviewer's list of audiophile cliches, but instead will quote my wife, who sat down and listened.  "This is way better!  It's like a whole bunch of [actual word not used because this is a family forum] has just been taken away.  Now I can hear [a whole bunch of musician's terms that I zoned out of about 30 seconds into]."

 

Moral of the story:  Despite what some people say about warm-up and break-in, it matters with this DAC.  A lot.  It's now back to breaking in with a constant diet of digital files before I listen again.  If it improves at all from this point, which I'll guess it will some based on past experience, this will be really good.  There are a couple areas where the QB-9 Twenty isn't perfect.  Then again, what audio component is?  But, it's more than acceptably close.  Some additional experimenting is probably in order here, once the DAC has some more break-in hours on it.

 

Second point...  With the QB-9 DSD, I'd used an UpTone ISO Regen with the short USPCB adaptor.  It made a substantial difference in performance.  For some reason, I cannot make the system work now with the ISO Regen.  No communication at all, no matter what order I plug things in and turn things on.  That's the bad news.  The good news is that I'm not sure the ISO Regen is needed now or would even help.  The aspects of the sound that the ISO Regen previously improved are already much better with the streaming computer now connected directly to the QB-9 Twenty through the very same cable as used previously.  Yeah, I'd like to solve the mystery of why the ISO Regen won't work now (I did make certain the switch on the USPCB adaptor was set in the right position to power the QB-9 Twenty's USB section) but, maybe in the end it won't matter.  Sometimes less can be more.

 

Finally, one reviewer of the QX-5 compared it to his own QB-9 DSD.  If I understood his description right, he didn't find much difference between the QX-5 and the QB-9 DSD.  Nuanced and slightly were the words he used.  

 

This confuses me.

 

Both my wife and I found that the QB-9 Twenty version is a ton better than the QB-9 DSD was.  Does that make the QB-9 Twenty now way better than the QX-5?  I doubt it.  This just shows how different people hear things differently and how different various systems are.

 

It's great to have the upgrade option instead of needing to re-enter the DAC purchasing market.  Bad for Ayre.  Great for Ayre!

[CG]

4 hours ago, Tone Deaf said:

 

This is curious.  FYI - I have no problems using the ISO Regen with mine.  Still think it makes a difference in my system.

 

That is curious.  In my case, I just plugged everything in as before.  Nada.  Then I tried various combinations of powering this first or that.  Still nada.

 

There's still some things left for me to try on that, so I haven't given up.  I'd really love if ISO Regen wasn't needed.  I'd also love it if the ISO Regen improved the sound.  In the mean time, more burn-in.

[CG]

2 hours ago, GAR said:

 

 

I could be wrong, but I'd guess that Ryan Berry fellow might have some insight.

 

Obviously, the QX-5 certainly has the potential to be substantially better, because they had a larger component budget and they used it for better parts.

 

In my own case, I only upgraded to the Twenty because I could and it was a compelling combination of a new, refined design and price.  I've never even seen a QX-5 in person.  Of course, I also don't visit audio stores, so that's not a surprise...

[CG]

15 hours ago, GAR said:

Actually, I'm in error. I think the proper comparator is the QX-8.

 

Here's the thing...

 

If you just use standard inflation adjustments - which may not be accurate for electronics today due to tariff adjustments - a QB-9 DSD (the old model) would sell for about $3900 in 2019 dollars.

 

A new QX-8 with the USB input option sells for $5450, if the information I found online is accurate.

 

So, for roughly $1500 you get a QX-8 that has a headphone system built in, complete with volume control, and a wider range of options.  Plus, obviously, the new technology that has migrated into the QB-9 Twenty.

 

So, you're right, I think.  But, it may also be that with the advancements, the QB-9 Twenty is closer to the QX-5 than we might expect.  Due to the QB-9's simplicity, it might actually be better in some ways.  The QX-5 is about three years old now, I think, so things may have advanced between then and now.

[CG]

11 hours ago, AB835 said:

CG

I have had issues with my ISO REGEN  connected to my QX-5 20 as you described earlier, original USB REGEN functions normally. I installed a simple on/off switch in the power line providing power to the ISO REGEN. Normally power to the ISO REGEN is always on. If there is a problem I cycle the power off and back on to the ISO REGEN and it then works fine till the next time. What is so weird is that I have not had any issues with either REGEN when connected to my QB-9 20!

 

Thanks to you, and the others, for the suggestions.

 

I know the isolation device used in the ISO Regen can be flaky.  The chip designer has even admitted as much.  With mine, if I let the QB-9 DSD play for more than five days, the USB signal would be lost.  A power cycle of the ISO Regen fixed that every time for me, too.

 

I've eliminated the cabling as an issue, through substitution.  So, it's down to the power supply and the ISO Regen itself.  The internal regulator of the ISO Regen has never seen use here, since the QB-9 DSD had its own VBus supply.  So, that's a possibility.

 

Hopefully, I'll have time this weekend to investigate further.  My hope is that the new USB system in the Twenty with its better isolation will eliminate the desire for external isolation and reclocking.  The server I'm using has a pretty complete isolation system from common mode currents that I built myself (and actually measured...) and there's no cables other than the isolated power and USB connection to the server.  That may be fine in itself.  Or, not.  It certainly eliminates the common mode circuit added by the power connection to the ISO Regen.  In any event, I'm sure it will get straightened out.  

 

If the difference between cold and new and ~170 hours of use extends over the next 200-300 hours in the same way, I think it'll be really great.  The minor sonic imperfections I'm hearing were about 90% mitigated over those 180 hours.  Maybe the additional burn-in will get that remaining 10%.  We'll see.  Already, the Twenty has shown itself to be well worth the upgrade price.

[CG]

8 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

 

Hey CG,

 

Thanks for the report on the burn-in.  Since Charley isn't around any longer, I'll be the first one to say that burn-in has a huge impact on our products.  I'd expect that you'll continue to hear improvements for the next few months if our other products are any indicator (and they should be!)  The first few hundred hours are definitely the most impactful, but they really take some time to settle in.  After that, it will stabilize and should sound it's best for years to come.

 

Charley and I discussed this on end to try to figure out what might cause that.  Lots of ideas, but no time or energy to really get to root cause.  Besides, even if you do figure out the why, does it really matter in the end?  It just is and letting the gear run takes care of it.  There's other challenges to address in the audio world.  It's the owner's patience that is the big hurdle...

 

Just as a point of reference for everybody else, my own observation in our own system is that the QB-9 Twenty tends to sound kinda "thin" and "dry", especially in the midrange, right out of the (cold) box.  This has perhaps 2/3 gone away after a week or so.  I'll see where it is after the second week of 24/7 operation over the weekend.  YMMV and all that stuff.

[CG]

Here's the ~350 hour update.  Probably my last words on audio...

 

That dryness or thin characteristic I mentioned before is almost entirely gone.  Who says burn-in isn't a thing?

 

It turns out that the problem with the UpTone ISO Regen was that the USB adaptor widget they sell wasn't fully engaging the USB connection in the QB-9.  A modest, ahh, circumcision of the heat shrink on the adaptor fixed that up.  The ISO Regen now does make a small improvement to the sound.  The aural picture is just a bit sharper and clearer.  Worth it?  I guess we'll see after another week of burn-in.  The Regen gets rather warm when used with the QB-9 Twenty, even with a 7.5 VDC supply.  If I keep the Regen in the system, I'll probably build a new supply that provides around 6 VDC to the Regen.  The regulator UpTone uses for the VBus supply in the Regen has a very low dropout voltage, so going from 7.5 VDC down to around 6 VDC is well within spec and would reduce the power dissipation on that regulator by more than a factor of two.  The added complexity and the additional current loops when using a device like the ISO Regen is just one of those trade-offs.  The other question is whether the Regen is providing improvement by cleaning up the VBus or whether it's due to the USB isolation and reclocking.  Or, both.  So, there may be other solutions that do the job better.  Time will tell.

 

Finally, Kimmo released a new version of Daphile today.  One of the features is that it now supports Native DSD playback with the QB-9 Twenty.  I was able to play a DSD256 track without a problem.  The QB-9 display even said so.  I was also able to play a 384K PCM track, too.  I compared one of the free demo tracks from 2L in both PCM and DSD256 format.  Personally, I liked PCM better.  But, they were close.  Again, YMMV, etc.

[CG]

13 minutes ago, desbiss said:

Question - you’re playing in Native DSD 256? Jealous... 🙂

 

Yeah.  Native.  The display on the QB-9 even says "256".  

 

Honestly - it's not that big a deal.  I heard zero angels singing.  I'm certain the sound quality is more of a function of how the original recording was formatted and all that jazz.

 

Then again, I may be the wrong guy to talk about this.  Presence and emotion are secondary to me compared to transparency and lack of crud.  Presumably, when you attain good performance in those areas, your brain should be able to take care of the rest.  (My wife is a real-life musician.  Or was, anyway.  Was a musician, that is - she's still real-life.  She prefers transparency so she can hear what the musicians are actually playing.  For emotion, she points out that pretty much all the musicians she knows can read the sheet music for a piece and derive the emotion from that.  That, says she, is why musicians usually don't play in the audiophile sandbox.  It's already in their heads.  The emotion processing is done there.)

 

[CG]

14 hours ago, beetlemania said:

I was a bit skeptical when I read your account. But I played my reference tracks this evening as I have the house to myself. I have to say I don’t recall *this* level of pristine clarity and liquidity. Some say that auditory memory is not reliable. I don’t have a strong opinion either way but I will say this: my system sounds better than I remember  😊

 

Very interesting observation.  (Unlike some forum members, and you all know who you are 😏, I'll not question your experiences.)

 

The real interesting associated question is: Why is this happening?

 

From looking at photos of past through present QB-9's, I'd have to say that certain elements are more or less the same.  

 

By that, I don't mean component values or how they're used in the circuit.  

 

I don't mean the circuit topology, either.

 

Instead, I mean the basic components.  Those certainly could and do age.

 

Based on careful examination of the various generations and the descriptions published by Ayre, I've identified three possibilities.  Obviously there could be and probably are more, but these three have been pointed out by Ayre.  Other possibilities aren't obvious, at least to me, from visual inspection and from their descriptions.  But, you gotta start somewhere, right?

 

First, examples of what's not different.

 

The DAC chip is different.  But it uses a similar semiconductor process as the ESS DAC found in the QB-9 DSD.  Same for the various processors and other digital components.

 

Same for power supply caps and stuff associated.

 

So, just what is different and could age differently?

 

1.  The clocks appear to be different.  They may not be, but somebody at Ayre would have to say.  Crystals do age.  It's right in the product specification and is a known phenomenon. 

 

2.  The use of Toshiba JFETs in the analog amplifier section.  I've never read of anybody saying that these particular JFETs age one way or the other, but it's possible.

 

3.  Finally, my choice...  The PCB material along with the solder mask.  These do age because of various chemical processing factors during manufacture and these changes do have the potential for subtly changing audio performance.  It might take months for the various processing chemicals to fully outgas.  It also might take months for the various PCB constituent elements to completely stabilize, too.  Plus, adding electronic components to a bare PCB requires a minimum of one additional heating cycle and perhaps an additional cleaning cycle.  That is a big change unto itself.

 

Maybe it's all just an illusion, but at minimum, the color of the PCBs have changed over the generations of the QB-9.  So, something certainly has changed.  And, Ayre definitely has trumpeted that proper PCB material selection is an important design consideration for them, so it's not a secret.  

 

An interesting test would be to compare a QB-9 Twenty that had been sitting unpowered on a shelf for several months to a similar unit fresh out of manufacture.  In other words, the same amount of powered burn-in time, but one would have months of time to outgas and settle while the other not.  A more complete study would include building a unit on a PCB that had been sitting on a shelf for months unstuffed - that could separate soldering effects from PCB chemical effects to a degree.  Perhaps actual burn-in isn't entirely necessary, but aging is.  Dunno.

 

(Side note - A fellow in eastern Europe builds truly state of the art audio oscillators for test applications.  These are amongst the best in the world, at any price.  He has learned that the solder mask - the usually green stuff that you see on the board covering the copper - makes a big difference in the harmonic distortion performance.  The harmonic performance is what he cares about in a test oscillator, but the harmonic performance is just an artifact of the solder mask's overall effects.  Who says that you can't measure this sort of thing?  Who says that you can't hear it?)  

 

 

The really good part is that things appear to keep getting better in QB-9 Twenty's.  At some point, other factors will limit the performance, but that's better than the other direction, which often happens.  Maybe it usually happens, which could explain the zeal people tend to have to upgrade all the time.  We fortunate QB-9 Twenty owners are constantly getting upgrades without even lifting a finger...

 

Personally, I'm fascinated with all these subtle and not so obvious effects.  Almost always there really is something there, even if it's hard to find.  Yeah, Cliff Stoll stuff.

 

 

[CG]

1 hour ago, Mercman said:

I'm a bit jealous that you are having so much fun😂

 

[CG]

19 minutes ago, beetlemania said:

@CG what is your subjective experience with your QB-9 as it burns in even more? You earlier reported changes at the 200-300 hour mark but what about now?

 

Ours has continued to improve beyond the 700 hour mark.  I don't know to quantify that, other than to say my wife and I are happy.

 

I was able to add an UpTone ISO REGN into the system and it did improve the sound further.  If the 'Twenty continues to improve, I won't be able to accurately isolate any sound improvement to more burn-in or aging, since other stuff has now changed, too.  Beyond the ISO REGEN, the software in our music server has been updated as well.

[CG]

On 1/21/2020 at 3:35 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let the fun begin. 
 

QB-9 DSD vs. QB-9 DSD Twenty

 

 

My wife just revived me after holding my breath for so long.  She says I turned a very nice color blue....  😏

[CG]

I've found myself getting home earlier from work these past two weeks, so I have had more time to listen.  (Walking downstairs gets me there faster than driving for a couple hours.  I don't understand that...)

 

Anyway, I have no alternate DAC to compare to, so I'm just going by the EEQ* index.  After these several months, I'm still very happy with the QB-9 Twenty upgrade.  Buying or building a new DAC is not on my top 74 list any longer.  

 

YMMV, etc.

 

(* = Extracted Enjoyment Quotient)

[CG]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Everyone is listening to music 🤣

 

That is truly the case for me.  

 

Although I have continued to make improvements elsewhere in our audio system, I have no inclination at all to replace the QB-9 Twenty.  Or, even look.  Honestly, this thread just happened to scroll by at the right time for me to see it.  Otherwise, I wouldn't have even noticed it.

 

To be completely unambiguous, that is all an endorsement of the QB-9 Twenty upgrade.  

 

It sucks that so many chips are difficult if not impossible to source now, but Ayre is hardly alone with that problem.  But, at least in my opinion, the wait and the upgrade are absolutely worth it.  Of course, my opinion isn't worth much.  But, you did ask...

[CG]

54 minutes ago, ufoerp said:

I understand the chip shortage has ended for months as now the chip is over supply?

 

I don't know what parts Ayre is short on for the QB-9 Twenty upgrade.  But I can tell you that the company I work for - nothing to do with consumer audio - still is having a very hard time with a lot of semiconductor parts.  Some parts have loosened up while others are still months out.  By months, I don't mean two, either.  Many logic devices are wayyyyy back-ordered.  So back-ordered that we've designed some of these parts out of products we have giant order queues for.  I'd also pretty much guaranty that my company has a LOT more leverage getting parts than a smaller audio company like Ayre has.

 

Many parts manufacturers have used the pandemic as an opportunity to readjust their product portfolios based on demand and profitability.  They even say as much in their quarterly earnings calls, albeit in coded terms.

 

Don't get me wrong.  Deliveries are better than they were a year ago.  But, it's selective and not what you read in the press.

[CG]

Loose or disconnected internal cable?  (Wild guess, but at least it's something you could address yourself.)

[CG]

There's always that Topping DAC.  By comparison, it's almost free.  You could give it away when you're done with it.

[CG]

1 hour ago, nrenter said:

@CG, I bought a Topping D10 Balanced. Received it yesterday and have been running it nonstop for 18 hours. Maybe I'm out-of-touch with state-of-the-art digital technology, but so far, I'm extremely impressed. I always wondered if you could really tell the difference between different bitrates, file types and streaming services. I now have my answer.

 

At least it wasn't a very expensive experiment!

[CG]

15 hours ago, nrenter said:

Just received my QB-9/20 (board revision 3.1). Candidly, I was keeping my expectations low because the Topping D10 Balanced had been running nonstop since late December and sounded good (so I thought). I mean, bits are bits, right? Cheap DACs sound the same as expensive DACs, right?
 

By the 3rd track out of the box, I got it. I’ve grown weary of all the audiophile words, but suffice to say, I got it.  Now, let’s put some hours on this thing and hear what she can really do. I’m happy. 

 

Although I had nothing to do with it, I'm sorry that this took so long.

 

I know it's heresy, but I completely agree with your assessment of the sound difference.  Maybe it's how you treat those bits that matters...

[CG]

On 5/27/2023 at 5:17 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

We should tag @Jake Forsyth the new CEO of Ayre, so he can pick up where @Ryan Berry left off in this thread. 

 

Except, he's not that.

 

What The Heck Is Happening At Ayre

 

Ariel is the man in the hot seat at the head of the table.  But, I'd bet that Jake could address these questions.

[CG]

Personally, I've found that there are better USB cables to use with a QB-9 Twenty than an AQ Diamond.

 

Of course, everybody has their own idea of what is better.

[CG]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:40 PM, spin33 said:

Anyone here have any experience putting a USB Isolator of the JCAT/Intona variety in front of their QB-9 Twenty?

 

Not a JCAT or Intona, but I've tried several isolators between the server computer and the QB-9 Twenty.  The UpTone ISO Regen was pretty good.  (No longer made.)  A Wavelength Audio USB Spacelator is even better.

 

Again, YMMV and all that stuff.

 

I should have a garage type sale of all the USB cables and isolation pieces I no longer use...

[CG]

4 hours ago, WEN HONG said:

Thanks for sharing your experience, can you specifically share the USB cable that goes with the QB9? I've been using a Qb9 for ten years and upgraded to a Qb9-20 in '21.

 

I am using a 0.8 m long Curious Evolved USB Cable between the server and the USB Spacelator and a 200 mm long Curious Evolved USB Cable between the Spacelator and the QB-9 Twenty.  I haven't tried every cable out there, but that's the best I've found.  YMMV and all that...